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RE: Hidden Agendas in Relationships - 11/19/2008 2:02:14 AM
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jesuschick247
Posts: 2886
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA
quote:
ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker
quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
Yep. I trimmed it down to just the exact point. While manipulation is never a good thing (unless you're a chiropractor) transparency is always a good thing, even an essential thing
So, what does a totally transparent man say to his wife, who's getting a bit pleasantly plump, when she asks "hon, does my butt look fat in this?"
He says " No, honey your just fine. But when you outgrow those shorts may I use them as a car cover?"
Or better yet " When the Psalmist said " Abundance of peace till the moon is no more " I didn't think it was in reference to your hind end" Then you duck!
ROFL!!!!! That was super funny!
_____________________________
"The memories erased...Baby, that's the BEAUTY of GRACE!"
"Always be a first-rate version of yourself, rather than a second-rate version of someone else." - Judy Garland
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RE: Hidden Agendas in Relationships - 11/19/2008 11:01:36 AM
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Jess_M
Posts: 24
Joined: 6/30/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jess_M
Your thinking is very black and white. If I had been in her shoes, I would not have disclosed the information. He didn't need to know and he was out of line in asking what he did. He crossed over the line of decency and placed her in a very awkward situation. Honesty is important, but there are some topics that are best left untouched, and unanswered if asked.
If your spouse asks you a question, and you do not answer truthfully, you ahve introduced a hidden agenda into your relationship. For the rest of your life you will have to defend that one little lie, building an ediface of lies upon lies just to hide that one fact which you don't think they need to know.
It's just not the smart way to do it. You are far better just answering teh question. Marriage is until death do us part. If he was concerned about that issue he should have asked about it before the marriage. She is blameless.
I agree with you about the honesty. She was honest (and transparent) and answered his question. The problem arose when he insisted upon knowing specific details. I think discretion needs to be used, and there's nothing wrong with telling someone that you are uncomfortable sharing those kinds of details. That's being honest too.
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RE: Hidden Agendas in Relationships - 11/19/2008 3:29:43 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8040
Joined: 9/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jess_M
I agree with you about the honesty. She was honest (and transparent) and answered his question. The problem arose when he insisted upon knowing specific details. I think discretion needs to be used, and there's nothing wrong with telling someone that you are uncomfortable sharing those kinds of details. That's being honest too.
True, but if he insisted she should have told. A husband and wife should have NO secrets from each other. Once you are married there should be nothing about your mates past that should bother you. If there is then you did not perform due diligence before the wedding to find out about it and now you just have to man up and live with it.
I wanted to know everything about M. and she wanted to know everything about me. I continue to pursue that same ideal with anyone new that God would bring into my life. I have no secrets (they've all been forgiven) and don't expect them to either. (In proper time of course)
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Hidden Agendas in Relationships - 11/20/2008 11:22:44 AM
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Psalms274
Posts: 2247
Joined: 8/13/2005
From: Georgia
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I believe it is very important to being completely transparent. That being said, there are some topics that need to be approached prayerfully. Like the one mentioned above. It is not wise to answer on the spot for every question. Honestly tell him (or her) you would like to talk about it later after you both have prayed about it, and then look for the Holy Spirit to lead ... do not just start because you both prayed ... make sure it is in the Father's timing. God may impress on the other not to press for details during that time of prayer ... or He may use it to prepare their heart, as He is directing yours in the best way to communicate whatever the topic may be.
_____________________________
I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
Linus, my dog, little Kaleigh and Sally!
http://piswa.blogspot.com/
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RE: Hidden Agendas in Relationships - 11/21/2008 10:39:02 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8040
Joined: 9/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
So what lies do you tell your loved ones? Why are you afraid of telling them the truth? 
I think we are perceiving this a little differently.
I don't think it is okay to tell a blatant lie, but I don't think it is okay to point my finger at everyone out there either.
what I mean is that in a close relationship, I will always give "her" the space she needs, the acceptance of who she is, and the support of who she wants to be without her ever feeling like she needs to have a hidden agenda at all whatsoever.
and even is "she" does, I will still love her.
when one (a man) comes across soooooooooo overbearingly, it is only natural for the other to circumvent the overbearing atmosphere, and that is how hidden agendas sometimes happen.
rather than pointing my finger at her, I would need to do some self examination.
I don't see how you make the leap from totally open and honest (transparent) to overbearing. I seem to be missing some steps in your thought process.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Hidden Agendas in Relationships - 11/21/2008 10:54:52 PM
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makarizo
Posts: 2997
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
So what lies do you tell your loved ones? Why are you afraid of telling them the truth?
I think we are perceiving this a little differently.
I don't think it is okay to tell a blatant lie, but I don't think it is okay to point my finger at everyone out there either.
what I mean is that in a close relationship, I will always give "her" the space she needs, the acceptance of who she is, and the support of who she wants to be without her ever feeling like she needs to have a hidden agenda at all whatsoever.
and even is "she" does, I will still love her.
when one (a man) comes across soooooooooo overbearingly, it is only natural for the other to circumvent the overbearing atmosphere, and that is how hidden agendas sometimes happen.
rather than pointing my finger at her, I would need to do some self examination.
I don't see how you make the leap from totally open and honest (transparent) to overbearing. I seem to be missing some steps in your thought process.
if you ..... or anyone for that matter..... were so over bearing, how could you expect her ..... or anyone to be transparent.
no leap, in fact I don't see how you don't get that???
it seems (from the forums) that being transparent to JohnO comes with a price. lots of misunderstanding, or an eansy bit of misunderstanding, maybe a harsh judgment here and there, the chance of a wrong blank being filled in...... even for those who are completely transparent, count the cost if JohnO is in the room.
one can't be transparent to someone who wears filtered glasses. That is not saying that I think you wear filtered glasses, not directed at you,
it is funny to think that you will remove your bathroom doors for the sake of transparency, even tho you haven't actually said that, it comes across that way. Like God wants you to do that.
_____________________________
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RE: Hidden Agendas in Relationships - 11/21/2008 11:10:13 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8040
Joined: 9/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
if you ..... or anyone for that matter..... were so over bearing, how could you expect her ..... or anyone to be transparent.
no leap, in fact I don't see how you don't get that???
Again you are assumbing overbearing with no description of how you get there from simply being honest.
Does one have to lie to avoid being overbearing?
quote:
it seems (from the forums) that being transparent to JohnO comes with a price. lots of misunderstanding, or an eansy bit of misunderstanding, maybe a harsh judgment here and there, the chance of a wrong blank being filled in...... even for those who are completely transparent, count the cost if JohnO is in the room.
If they are completely transparent then what cost could there possibly be?
quote:
one can't be transparent to someone who wears filtered glasses. That is not saying that I think you wear filtered glasses, not directed at you,
Transparency has nothing to do with them and everything to do with you. It doesn't matter whether they can see your transparency or not. You still need to be transparent.
quote:
it is funny to think that you will remove your bathroom doors for the sake of transparency, even tho you haven't actually said that, it comes across that way.
No one ever said anything about remodelling the house. Is honesty such a hard concept for people to get a hold of? When someone asks, you answer truthfully. How hard can it be?
quote:
Like God wants you to do that.
Yep He does. included it right in there on the tablets of stone. "Thou shalt not lie"
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Hidden Agendas in Relationships - 11/22/2008 7:00:28 AM
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ebony101
Posts: 1077
Joined: 4/1/2007
From: the big blue marble
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Actually it's "Thou shalt not bear false witness against Thy neighbour." Someone in the forums corrected me some months ago when I posted the same thing. They also told me there's a difference between bearing false witness & lying. I can't remember what the difference is now though, but it made perfect sense at the time.
However, I digress. I agree totally with John about the honesty issue:
quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
Is honesty such a hard concept for people to get a hold of? When someone asks, you answer truthfully. How hard can it be?
I can't abide lying. And it seems to me that a relationship can't go anywhere if one of the individuals involved is lying. Once dishonesty is involved, the foundation of the relationship is fragile and unstable. I'll admit that no one lays all their cards on the table up front, when you're still in the getting to know you stages. In fact there's a bit of coyness at this stage where you always attempt to put your best foot forward, while simultaneously letting the potential partner know where you stand on certain issues. However, after the relationship advances past a certain stage then you've got to be completely open. By then I think that your partner and yourself should have a certain level of knowledge about you and you will know how to relate to each other.
There are certain things however, that you should be up front about all the time, e.g. your marital status.
However, in terms of the transparency issue, I refrain from saying anything. I only read a couple of the posts, so I have no idea what the transparency/overbearing/housemodelling thing is all about. 
& that's my 10 cents (price increase from 2 cents due to the rising cost of inflation) 
_____________________________
'We're writing a gospel, a chapter each day,
By the things that we do & the words that we say.'
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RE: Hidden Agendas in Relationships - 11/22/2008 11:44:47 AM
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Jess_M
Posts: 24
Joined: 6/30/2008
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There is a difference between honesty and transparency. As mentioned, there is also a little thing called timing, and let's throw in patience, and when you mix it all together with love for the other person you get a level of understanding and hopefully a little compassion.
With the example of my friend, she had been raped. She was honest about it with her husband, but he pushed and pushed, one could say he demanded to know as his right as her husband that she had no right to withhold anything, and it put her in a terrible place of reliving a nightmare she went through years ago. It affected their relationship in a very bad way, as I said it led to their divorce.
Granted, her husband was clearly out of line, but just where do you draw the line in sharing certain details, or in this case the level of detail, of your past? Was it not enough for her to tell him about having been raped?
So, when you ask "Is honesty such a hard concept for people to get a hold of?", I would answer, no. Honesty is not a hard concept. There seems to be a thought process that if she hadn't told her husband the excruciatingly intimate details of her rape that she was lying to him. Her having withheld those details was not lying, and in my opinion, he had no right to ask her for them in the first place, not to mention pushing her until she told him.
Just because one cannot for the life of themselves understand why someone would or would not do something, only tells me that one does not understand some situations that another is placed in.
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RE: Hidden Agendas in Relationships - 11/22/2008 12:04:15 PM
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Grace-N-Mercy
Posts: 6040
Joined: 5/2/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jess_M
There is a difference between honesty and transparency. As mentioned, there is also a little thing called timing, and let's throw in patience, and when you mix it all together with love for the other person you get a level of understanding and hopefully a little compassion.
With the example of my friend, she had been raped. She was honest about it with her husband, but he pushed and pushed, one could say he demanded to know as his right as her husband that she had no right to withhold anything, and it put her in a terrible place of reliving a nightmare she went through years ago. It affected their relationship in a very bad way, as I said it led to their divorce.
Granted, her husband was clearly out of line, but just where do you draw the line in sharing certain details, or in this case the level of detail, of your past? Was it not enough for her to tell him about having been raped?
So, when you ask "Is honesty such a hard concept for people to get a hold of?", I would answer, no. Honesty is not a hard concept. There seems to be a thought process that if she hadn't told her husband the excruciatingly intimate details of her rape that she was lying to him. Her having withheld those details was not lying, and in my opinion, he had no right to ask her for them in the first place, not to mention pushing her until she told him.
Just because one cannot for the life of themselves understand why someone would or would not do something, only tells me that one does not understand some situations that another is placed in.
In my opinion, it's not enough for the wife to mention that she has been raped. She also needs to reveal her feelings about the rape, as everyone reacts differently. For some, there's an inability to trust again, or maybe an inability to get close. There may be some emotional withdrawal. When a person withdraws in a relationship, they have the responsibility to tell the other person why they are withdrawing. For instance, she may say "when you talk to me in this way, I feel pressured, and that brings up old feelings that I thought were gone. I didn't know how to deal with them, so I withdrew." In her case, the husband was clearly out of line. He may have been using that one verse from scripture, but I wonder if he was following other scripture, or just that one.
_____________________________
<-- When did Hollywood go from classy to 'cheap & easy'?
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RE: Hidden Agendas in Relationships - 11/22/2008 12:46:05 PM
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WaitingforBoaz
Posts: 4249
Joined: 2/11/2008
Status: offline
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In the situation with the husband demanding that the wife tell excruciating details of a crime that was commited against her: There is no guarantee that he would have stayed if she had refused to share the details. Sometimes, the imagination can come up with worse images than the actual truth. He may not have been able to live with it either way.
I am a very black and white person. In our home you do not lie, period, We never did Santa or the Easter Bunny, because I could not bear the thought of lying to my children.
John,
I am not sure that your idea of knowing everything about your new wife before you marry is going to be possible. Think about it, you will both be "older" than you and M were when you married. there will have been alot of history in both of your lives. If you date for 6 months and you are engaged for 6 monthes, I cannot imagine that would be enough time to cover say 20 years of someones life. I am not speaking of deception or lack of tranparency, I am just saying that it will take years to really know each other. If you love each other it can happen after marriage. I mean ask all the pertinant questions, but know that you will not know every detail before the wedding day.
_____________________________
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RE: Hidden Agendas in Relationships - 11/22/2008 12:58:16 PM
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WaitingforBoaz
Posts: 4249
Joined: 2/11/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalms274
I believe it is very important to being completely transparent. That being said, there are some topics that need to be approached prayerfully. Like the one mentioned above. It is not wise to answer on the spot for every question. Honestly tell him (or her) you would like to talk about it later after you both have prayed about it, and then look for the Holy Spirit to lead ... do not just start because you both prayed ... make sure it is in the Father's timing. God may impress on the other not to press for details during that time of prayer ... or He may use it to prepare their heart, as He is directing yours in the best way to communicate whatever the topic may be.
I think this is very wise advise.
I am going to relate a true story that made me question my hold nothing back philosophy. (I have not changed my mind, just questioned  )
There was couple that I knew that used to attend my church, and then they kinda dropped off the face of the earth. We did not see them for several years. Suddenly, We see them both at church again, their marriage was falling apart and they had started to get counciling at the church. One of the requirements of the counciling was that they attend church together. We had a marriage retreat coming up and they went. They renewed their vows and it looked as though they had fallen in love again. Three years later they were doing great. they were both ministering, and at the church all the time. Very, very happy. You could see the change in their kids, things were going well. The man attended a mens bible study where he confessed to having an affair several years before while their marriage was a mess. He had not told her. The men in the group told him he had to tell her. He did, she left. 
Should he have told her? Would that have been your advise?
_____________________________
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RE: Hidden Agendas in Relationships - 11/22/2008 4:25:28 PM
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Grace-N-Mercy
Posts: 6040
Joined: 5/2/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WaitingforBoaz
quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalms274
I believe it is very important to being completely transparent. That being said, there are some topics that need to be approached prayerfully. Like the one mentioned above. It is not wise to answer on the spot for every question. Honestly tell him (or her) you would like to talk about it later after you both have prayed about it, and then look for the Holy Spirit to lead ... do not just start because you both prayed ... make sure it is in the Father's timing. God may impress on the other not to press for details during that time of prayer ... or He may use it to prepare their heart, as He is directing yours in the best way to communicate whatever the topic may be.
I think this is very wise advise.
I am going to relate a true story that made me question my hold nothing back philosophy. (I have not changed my mind, just questioned )
There was couple that I knew that used to attend my church, and then they kinda dropped off the face of the earth. We did not see them for several years. Suddenly, We see them both at church again, their marriage was falling apart and they had started to get counciling at the church. One of the requirements of the counciling was that they attend church together. We had a marriage retreat coming up and they went. They renewed their vows and it looked as though they had fallen in love again. Three years later they were doing great. they were both ministering, and at the church all the time. Very, very happy. You could see the change in their kids, things were going well. The man attended a mens bible study where he confessed to having an affair several years before while their marriage was a mess. He had not told her. The men in the group told him he had to tell her. He did, she left.
Should he have told her? Would that have been your advise?
As I was reading this book, Boundaries in Marriage by Cloud & Townsend, I ran across something that speaks perfectly to this issue:
Discernment!! While total honesty is the ideal, every relationship is not ready for total knowing and being known. Some truths are not ready to be dealt with yet. Some people are too fragile or are in special circumstances, and they need help to deal with some things, or the timing needs to be right. Use wisdom to know what your relationship can handle and what it is not ready for.
In that couple's case, they needed a professional counselor, not a bible study group, as pure as their motives probably were.
_____________________________
<-- When did Hollywood go from classy to 'cheap & easy'?
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RE: Hidden Agendas in Relationships - 11/22/2008 4:48:43 PM
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Prairiehiker
Posts: 3282
Status: offline
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If you were married and both of you are quite happy with your marriage, however, your husband had a brief one night stand 10 years ago, would you want to know about it? What if the situation will not come out in the open unless he admits to the affair himself? If the situation is reversed and you're the one that had an affair, and it's not going to happen again, would you risk your marriage just so you can clear your conscience? Would you be honest for the sake of honesty and hurt your husband. Does he deserve to know? Remember, this is 10 years ago, and you're both happy, and both are removed from the situation and the affair will never be found out unless you or your husband own up to it.
_____________________________
Wishing for a Steelers/Eagles superbowl.
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RE: Hidden Agendas in Relationships - 11/22/2008 10:58:40 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8040
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jess_M
There seems to be a thought process that if she hadn't told her husband the excruciatingly intimate details of her rape that she was lying to him. Her having withheld those details was not lying, and in my opinion, he had no right to ask her for them in the first place, not to mention pushing her until she told him.
No one said she was lying. She could have told him "I'm not ready to relive that nightmare yet. Can we do this later?" and she would have been fine.
He had every right to ask, and no right to push.
quote:
Just because one cannot for the life of themselves understand why someone would or would not do something, only tells me that one does not understand some situations that another is placed in.
And then some have been in those same situations and still don't understand why others will or wont do something.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Hidden Agendas in Relationships - 11/22/2008 11:01:56 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8040
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WaitingforBoaz
John,
I am not sure that your idea of knowing everything about your new wife before you marry is going to be possible.
I never said it was possible. I said that if she asks, I will tell the truth.
I've said here repeatedly that you never really even start getting to know someone until you are married. And even most people who've been married less than, say, ten years don't know each other all that well.
quote:
Think about it, you will both be "older" than you and M were when you married. there will have been alot of history in both of your lives.
I'm not getting older! (I'm getting better!)
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Hidden Agendas in Relationships - 11/22/2008 11:05:13 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8040
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Grace-N-Mercy
quote:
ORIGINAL: WaitingforBoaz
quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalms274
I believe it is very important to being completely transparent. That being said, there are some topics that need to be approached prayerfully. Like the one mentioned above. It is not wise to answer on the spot for every question. Honestly tell him (or her) you would like to talk about it later after you both have prayed about it, and then look for the Holy Spirit to lead ... do not just start because you both prayed ... make sure it is in the Father's timing. God may impress on the other not to press for details during that time of prayer ... or He may use it to prepare their heart, as He is directing yours in the best way to communicate whatever the topic may be.
I think this is very wise advise.
I am going to relate a true story that made me question my hold nothing back philosophy. (I have not changed my mind, just questioned )
There was couple that I knew that used to attend my church, and then they kinda dropped off the face of the earth. We did not see them for several years. Suddenly, We see them both at church again, their marriage was falling apart and they had started to get counciling at the church. One of the requirements of the counciling was that they attend church together. We had a marriage retreat coming up and they went. They renewed their vows and it looked as though they had fallen in love again. Three years later they were doing great. they were both ministering, and at the church all the time. Very, very happy. You could see the change in their kids, things were going well. The man attended a mens bible study where he confessed to having an affair several years before while their marriage was a mess. He had not told her. The men in the group told him he had to tell her. He did, she left.
Should he have told her? Would that have been your advise?
As I was reading this book, Boundaries in Marriage by Cloud & Townsend, I ran across something that speaks perfectly to this issue:
Discernment!! While total honesty is the ideal, every relationship is not ready for total knowing and being known. Some truths are not ready to be dealt with yet. Some people are too fragile or are in special circumstances, and they need help to deal with some things, or the timing needs to be right. Use wisdom to know what your relationship can handle and what it is not ready for.
In that couple's case, they needed a professional counselor, not a bible study group, as pure as their motives probably were.
I normally don't quote long posts like this but the whole chain is worth posting again. If he had repented before God, then he doesn't need to tell her unless she asks. Why hurt her for something that God has already forgiven.
The lesson to be learned here for us is "DON'T COMMIT ADULTERY!" Even if you get away with it it will eventually catch up with you.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Hidden Agendas in Relationships - 11/23/2008 4:08:18 PM
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Jess_M
Posts: 24
Joined: 6/30/2008
Status: offline
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John_O, first you said
quote:
The truth is ALWAYS the best policy
Then you said
quote:
he doesn't need to tell her unless she asks. Why hurt her
and then you said
quote:
if she asks, I will tell
So are you saying that lying through omission is okay?
What if she doesn't know what specific questions to ask because she isn't thinking her husband is doing her wrong? If it were me, the foundation of trust would be completely gone. I would forever wonder what else has he done that he hasn't told me about?
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