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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 8:18:27 PM
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armydude
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11arrows
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 10:22:42 PM
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internetwraith
Posts: 14
Joined: 11/15/2008
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quote:
This is an apologetics question, and a good one. There's a good source dealing with this far better than I could articulate, called "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell. It's even in outline form (a plus for me, and maybe for you as well). I highly recommend it, as it will answer your hard questions better than I can.
Sorry deermousie, I never got to respond to your message. Got sidetracked with MrFibbles.
I actually have read Josh McDowells work, and this is my take on it.
Basically Josh McDowell says this:
Deciding if what we have today, as far as the bible, is what was originally written. Let's pretend that it is. The problem is, and will always be, did God have anything to do with the Writings themselves? I have no problem believing the bible was written and what we have today could be the original. The problem is 1) is it the word of God as Christians say; 2) are the writings made up of Truth as Christians say, and NOT works of fiction by very superstitious people or edited and introduced by those in power, seeking more power.
Josh says, the books of the Bible were written by, basically, reporters... documenting eye witness accounts and admits there is no evidence otherwise. However, those eyewitness accounts could be wrong OR lied about their accounts in the first place. We don't know if they were in fact, eyewitness accounts, and if they were right in there interpretations. None of this would matter if there wasn't magic involved, but since there is, we need more proof, wouldn't you say? Plus, we really have no clue who wrote the book anyway. Look it up. We just have to take the Bibles word for it.
He also mentions that if people wrote lies, it would never have been accepted. People would have been killed for writing such lies that couldn't be proven... even killed by the Church (he says). This simply isn't true at all. We already know that people write lies and others believe those lies, so why is this book any different? It could very well have been written as a lie, and believed, just like stories of all religions before and after it (i.e. Mythological stories, multiple ancient gods, etc… we all know those were believed, but lies nonetheless). Believing in something DOES NOT make it real, and forcing a belief system, DOES NOT make it real.
He says, a lot of people died for a lie, but believed it to be true, but no one would die for a lie they knew was a lie (talking about the people that said they spent 40 days with him after the resurrection, etc.). But their is no historical mention of any of these people existing, much less being martyred, except by a Church elder 70 years (or so) after Jesus' death. Plus, plenty of people die for their beliefs without proof... still do to this day.
In the end, we have the Bible today. We know it was written a long time ago. I have no problem with that; BUT, was it the Word of God, or was it simply written by those that believed they could explain God to the masses, as every organized religion before, during, and since? Keep in mind, there was no science then. No answers to any questions regarding how we got here, and where we came from.
< Message edited by internetwraith -- 11/15/2008 10:32:17 PM >
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 11:21:07 PM
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dwain
Posts: 103
Joined: 3/4/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: internetwraith
Matter of fact, I do believe in a "God", but definitely not he Biblical one, nor any other religious version of a god. However, I'm prob the most open-minded person you've ever run across. All I've been searching for is "truth", wherever that leads me. I've done extreme research, and there simply is NO evidence at all... period. It is a totally "blind faith" based religion, as they all are.
The main point is, if you had grown up in the Middle East, you have a 95% chance you'd be Muslim. If you grew up in India, you'd be Hindu... and so on. Don't you think if the Biblical God was real, this would not be possible? Why on Earth would a loving God do things the way they were done? There are 1 billion Christians, 2 Billion Muslims, 1 Billion Hindus (which is an older religion than Christianity), 1/2 Billion Buddhist, and so on. Why would this be the case, because, as I'm sure you are aware, when you teach a child the "wrong religion" from birth, the brainwashing is much too strong for most people to ever break free and find "truth". Because we grow up in America, there is a incredible chance of being Christian, especially for Southerners. It's all just brainwashing to the max.. or so it seems.
So this "blind faith" you speak of, it's simply guessing in life which one is correct... and of course, as I've mentioned, that USUALLY depends on your geographical location. There are simply people on this planet that will never have the "choice". Choices will never occur to them. This is statistical and obvious.
I guess what I really want to know is, how do you know you "picked" the right path? Because for most people, there is no actual choice. They are taught from birth one way, and that's usually the way they "believe" from that point on. You can't deny this.
And before you ask about what "God" I DO believe in, I believe in the God or Force or whatever you want to label the Energy that started the Big Bang, set Evolution in motion, etc... The same "God" most scientists believe in, The 10th Dimension. There is substantial amount of evidence "suggesting" a creator of sorts, but nothing that supports the Bibles claims... quite the contrary. But I do believe in "God" and this conclusion is based on scientific evidence, historical evidence, logic, etc.. not "faith". Molecular machines, quantum physics, even string theory suggests we are inside the Mind of our Creator, and this "energy" is part of us, makes up what we are, and everything around us. This is undeniable, which I'm sure you'd agree with, but why associate all these "facts" with a pagan myth with no support? It's just weird.
Answer these questions, why would a loving God allow Faith to begin with? He already knows there will be plenty that will Burn FOREVER (which is a ridiculous claim as well)! And according to the Bible, he already knows who will Burn... if he doesn't know, "he" is not God (seems to always be a male deity). If he does, this seems more evil that anything. Creating people to simply watch them fail..? Wow!
But besides all this, you said you had "source material to complement and support all of (your) points". Are you talking about Biblical sources? If so, Sorry for wasting your time. I truly am. Again, I want "truth" no matter where it leads me. I just haven't found anything, except through "blind faith", which was your main point anyways. You claim that it really doesn't require "blind faith" to be a Christian. So where's your proof? Please, a non-Christian is begging someone for HELP, and most Christians aren't even willing to research and gather answerers for people like me. Don't you find this fact strange?
Thanks for your time!
I first recommend "The Case for the Resurrection of Christ", Gary Habermas.
Lee Strobel has several, "A Case for Faith", "A Case for the Creator."
Used books at Amazon are sometimes less than 1/2 price.
First swing :) You aren't Buddhist, Asian, Indian, Krishna, or Scientology Mormon or Moonie ( I hope.) Or athiest or agnostic.
I did not intend to make anyone think blind faith is the answer.
Isaiah says, "Let us reason together".
There is a verse in the scriptures that says to "Strengthen the things that remain." To the church in Revelation. I would worry about what I believe and be sure before I would try and convince anyone else.
You sound intelligent, able to organize your thoughts and (maybe ) really
concerned if you (or any of your friends or family) need Jesus and His Gospel. If you can be saved or lost eternally, then the most important matter in the world is to show men how to be saved.
I have really messed up the first 35 years of my life, making "Me" "Myself" and "I" my God. I just came to the conclusion
after reading the book of ROMANS in the New Testament, the name
character and person of Jesus of Nazereth, born in Bethlehem, concieved of the Holy Spirit, crucified, dead and buried, raised again on the third
day was in truth, the one true manifestation of God (His Son) and that He died for me. I am in need of forgiveness.
The more I study the word, check original language, read commentary
the more I am convinced.
Here is a great study tool- www.blueletterbible.org
Give Romans a read and tell me what you think?
I pray only the best for you wraith.
Peace.
_____________________________
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/thegoodnewsofjesuschrist/
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/
Deut. 33:27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms.
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RE: blind faith? - 11/15/2008 11:37:51 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Of course not
So you admit that if something is wrong, it is wrong regardless of ignorance, yet you then say -
quote:
Innocent people will burn forever because they had no change of learning "truth"?
Why should it matter? If it is wrong to not accept Christ, why should God be obligated to let it slide because of ignorance?
quote:
Yes, I do
This intrigues me. In my understanding, proof is something that is so irrefutable that not even those who stop up their ears and cry "Na na na, I can't hear you!" can ignore. It is something beyond all doubt, reasonable or not. Do you have a different definition?
quote:
The point is, how do you know the Bible is the word of God himself
I don't know. No reasonable Christian should ever claim to know. If we knew, faith would die. Proof kills faith. Which is why I believe that you do not have proof.
quote:
Where are you getting the information that there were people that actually met Jesus, saw him die and resurrected, etc and were persecuted for it?
Do you think a whole religion would have spread off the teachings of one man if masses of people hadn't been exposed to Him? It's common sense that the earliest, first generation Christians had witnessed Jesus on earth. And it's further common sense that they wouldn't give their lives if they didn't have something to go on besides hear-say about miracles. Lots of folks were claiming to do miracles back then, but I don't know of any others that spawned a massive movement and garnered martyrs for their name.
11arrows example seems faulty to me. There's a big difference between a small number of cult members, all with a similar mindset, and a large number of followers who, we presume, came from various histories and backgrounds (since the historical records are not what they are today, obviously we don't have personality profiles on all of them, but Judea was a relatively diverse region in many respects).
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: blind faith? - 11/16/2008 12:20:46 AM
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internetwraith
Posts: 14
Joined: 11/15/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Do you think a whole religion would have spread off the teachings of one man if masses of people hadn't been exposed to Him?
What? So no other religions have ever existed in the history of mankind? Thats basically what you're saying. You're saying, that unless people see with their own eyes, it is impossible for a religion to begin.
quote:
It's common sense that the earliest, first generation Christians had witnessed Jesus on earth. And it's further common sense that they wouldn't give their lives if they didn't have something to go on besides hear-say about miracles.
So now it's COMMON SENSE that a religion can only begin if the founders of the religion witness the one that they are worshiping, first hand?
Seriously MrFribbles, I really don't want to be rude here, but you are not qualified to speak on this subject at all. I'd rather you let others post comments if they are so inclined. Please, do me this favor. What you have said thus far makes no logical sense and anyone here would agree I'm sure. Plus, I'm not even sure you understood that particular question, nor any other I have asked. Thanks for your comments thus far. I really appreciate the entertainment, but it's just not helping at all.
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RE: blind faith? - 11/16/2008 12:27:58 AM
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internetwraith
Posts: 14
Joined: 11/15/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
I first recommend "The Case for the Resurrection of Christ", Gary Habermas.
Now this one I haven't read, but will do so. Thanks for this info, along with a few other things you mentioned in your post.
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RE: blind faith? - 11/16/2008 12:36:49 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
What? So no other religions have ever existed in the history of mankind? Thats basically what you're saying.
No, it's really not. Do you think Mohammad existed in a vacuum? Do you think nobody ever interacted with Buddha? Did Zoroaster never leave his house, plus never entertain visitors? I doubt it. They went out and spread their message somehow. That's all I was saying. They spread their teachings among the people that were around them.
quote:
You're saying, that unless people see with their own eyes, it is impossible for a religion to begin.
In a way, yes. People have to be exposed to a teaching to receive it. How does that exclude any other religion besides Christianity from existing?
quote:
So now it's COMMON SENSE that a religion can only begin if the founders of the religion witness the one that they are worshiping, first hand?
Maybe not the one their worshiping (no good Muslim I know would claim to have seen Allah), but I don't know any religion that got started without its founder (Christ, Mohammad, etc.) completely removed from human interaction. That seems like common sense to me. Please explain how it is not.
quote:
Seriously MrFribbles, I really don't want to be rude here, but you are not qualified to speak on this subject at all.
Oh? How so?
quote:
I'd rather you let others post comments if they are so inclined.
We're having a discussion. There are questions I've asked that I feel deserve a response. For instance, you claim to have proof of a God. This intrigues me. I asked about it. You ignored me.
quote:
What you have said thus far makes no logical sense and anyone here would agree I'm sure.
I'd welcome their comments.
quote:
I'm not even sure you understood that particular question
I understood it quite well, thank you. I also understand that looking for the historical accounts you're after is like looking for an internal combustion engine from the time of the Renaissance. People back then did not record history the way we do today. If you set your standards of "historical proof" by 21st century standards, then of course you're going to come up dry, because you want the test to fail. The culture back then was radically different. If you want to disbelieve Christianity based on the historical records, or lack thereof, of the immediate historical context, that is your prerogative. However, that would be akin to me calling Mozart a terrible musician because he couldn't play a mean guitar. I would be judging him on a standard that doesn't fit his context, just as I feel you are doing with Christianity.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: blind faith? - 11/16/2008 2:19:03 AM
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Kath
Posts: 16934
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internetwraith
Please email community@salemwebnetwork.com concerning the status of your account. Please allow time for a response.
Please do not post under this handle or any other until you have heard from the administrator.
Sincerely
Kath
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RE: blind faith? - 11/19/2008 8:08:42 PM
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dwain
Posts: 103
Joined: 3/4/2006
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Actually there is state in which a man has "no" faith. Did Lazarus have the faith necessary to contribute to his own resurrection? He was dead. I think the faith that raised him after 4 days has to be credited in total to the Lord Jesus. He was Mary's brother, yet no specific information is given concerning Lazarus's relationship with Jesus, except Jesus loved him dearly.
This miracle typifies the actual source of any supernatural occurrence. God himself. Just the mere fact Jesus loved Lazarus was enough. Jesus was also accompanied by the faithful women that believed in Him; Martha and Mary.
John 20
Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
So, for us as believers who have taken the word of God to heart some 2000 yrs. after Christ's earthly ministry; we have opportunity to exercise
a measure of faith no matter how small or great.
John 11
[25] Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
[26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
[27] She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world
[40] Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
[41] Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
[45] Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.
Faith in Christ = Belief in Christ
< Message edited by dwain -- 11/19/2008 8:18:07 PM >
_____________________________
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/thegoodnewsofjesuschrist/
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/
Deut. 33:27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms.
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RE: blind faith? - 11/19/2008 9:53:06 PM
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donofhope
Posts: 8
Joined: 11/11/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: internetwraith
quote:
Do you think a whole religion would have spread off the teachings of one man if masses of people hadn't been exposed to Him?
What? So no other religions have ever existed in the history of mankind? Thats basically what you're saying. You're saying, that unless people see with their own eyes, it is impossible for a religion to begin.
If your mind is made up, then there is no proof that will reach you. Only God can show you the way, if you accept it. There was mention of the Muslim faith. This faith is forced in the Midle East, for one thing. And secondly, Muslems even believe that Jesus Christ was a great profit and they even validate that he performed miracles. The also validate that he was crucified on the Cross. They do down play him as a man, and they believe that Mohamud is the one that Christ spoke of to come after him. The Muslem faith has gaps in it and Mohamuds teachings completely change, leaving a huge gap in this religion, but Christianity has much more backing. I nor any other Christian can convience you of anything. All I can do is leave you with a word of scripture:
"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Hebrews 11:6
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RE: blind faith? - 11/20/2008 9:18:38 AM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 910
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: internetwraith
quote:
The people in charge of those lands, both present and past, chose to reject God, and the people under them didn't seem to mind. God is letting them have their way.
So, they all must suffer because of this? MOST Middle Eastern children grow up surrounded by Islamic religion, and they WILL die believing the same thing. Again, why would God allow this? According to the Bible, they are going to hell.. Though this is no fault of their own. How is this fare?
Notice how you said MOST. Most middle eastern children do become Muslims, but not all. Muslims have been converting to Christ on a daily basis. The fact that most don't means nothing, because wide is the road that leads to destruction and MOST(paraphrase) will find it, but narrow is the road that leads to life and FEW will find it.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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