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[Poll]
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Did She ASK for It?
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| Yes, but the assailant is entirely responsible for his actions. |
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| Yes, she should know better & the case should be dropped. |
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| No, a woman should be able to dress as she pleases, regardless! |
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| No, but she should know that her behavior is irresponsible |
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Total Votes : 21
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(last vote on : 11/21/2008 1:33:55 PM)
(Poll ended: 11/21/2008 2:00:00 AM)
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 11:51:15 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3671
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
A woman in a place where there are no rapists won't get raped no matter what she is or isn't wearing.
Agreed, although it still doesn't make provocative dress alright.
quote:
A woman in a place where there is a rapist is a potential victim based on her vulnerability not her ensemble.
I don't know that I agree with this one, I think a provocatively dressed woman would be more prone to being a target, enough so that she would be chosen over a modestly dressed woman who may be slightly more vulnerable. Given two women that presented equal opportunity, I believe the provocatively dressed one would be chosen almost every time.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 11:53:24 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4406
Joined: 4/11/2005
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The more vulnerable woman would be chosen. Attackers choose victims based on their vulnerability, IOW who appears to be the easiest to overcome.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 11:54:16 PM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 9048
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
A woman in a place where there are no rapists won't get raped no matter what she is or isn't wearing.
Agreed, although it still doesn't make provocative dress alright.
No one is saying it's alright. No one is defending dressing provocatively.
quote:
quote:
A woman in a place where there is a rapist is a potential victim based on her vulnerability not her ensemble.
I don't know that I agree with this one, I think a provocatively dressed woman would be more prone to being a target, enough so that she would be chosen over a modestly dressed woman who may be slightly more vulnerable. Given two women that presented equal opportunity, I believe the provocatively dressed one would be chosen almost every time.
Well, we can hardly do a study with test subjects so this is opinion and that's fine. I say the woman who is most distracted/drunk/high and paying the least attention to her surroundings while being in the most deserted place is the one at highest risk.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 11:56:02 PM
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BugLady
Posts: 2528
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
The more vulnerable woman would be chosen. Attackers choose victims based on their vulnerability, IOW who appears to be the easiest to overcome.
This is exactly true.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/15/2008 11:56:37 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3671
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
re you kidding? Allow me to be flabbergasted now.
Why do you think that a venue which attracts women who have chosen to disregard godly standards for dress and behavior would not be more attractive to sexual predators?
Do you realize that the statistics don't your supposition?
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 12:01:41 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3671
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From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
The more vulnerable woman would be chosen. Attackers choose victims based on their vulnerability, IOW who appears to be the easiest to overcome.
Again, this is another myth that is not supported by the rape studies. Only a very small number of rapist choose their victims in this manner i.e. the ones who are going to grab an anonymous woman and pull her into the bushes. However, this accounts for only a small percentage of rape cases. Most rapes are perpetrated by relatives or dates, and their victims are seldom chosen because they are more vulnerable.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 12:17:08 AM
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BugLady
Posts: 2528
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quote:
Only a very small number of rapist choose their victims in this manner i.e. the ones who are going to grab an anonymous woman and pull her into the bushes. However, this accounts for only a small percentage of rape cases.
...maybe that's because rapes are often unreported by victims. It's a very humiliating thing, especially when women know they may be made to feel they "asked for it".
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I'm a little surprised the author of the book pictured in my avatar hasn't had someone contact me to remove it... but then, my purpose in posting it is to solve a crime. Or maybe he wonders who I even am...
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 12:22:02 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3671
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From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BugLady
quote:
Only a very small number of rapist choose their victims in this manner i.e. the ones who are going to grab an anonymous woman and pull her into the bushes. However, this accounts for only a small percentage of rape cases.
...maybe that's because rapes are often unreported by victims. It's a very humiliating thing, especially when women know they may be made to feel they "asked for it".
But most of the estimates for under reporting suggest that the greatest number of under reports are in the other groups i.e. children because they are either too young or too scared to make a report, and in dating because women who have been drinking and/or engaging in drugs are embarrassed to report the rape because it will bring to light their poor behavior, and in marriages when a husband is rapes his and abuses his wife. The anonymous rape in the bushes is the one that is the most likely to be reported.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 12:24:07 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1755
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Something to keep in mind, Most sexual assaults are perpetrated by men who know their victims. Provocative dress has little to do with it. It's used as a defense by defense attorney's. The rapist who waits in the shadows for a victim looks for the woman who exhibits the characteristics of a victim, not the woman whose dressed provocatavily.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 12:27:21 AM
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BugLady
Posts: 2528
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quote:
The anonymous rape in the bushes is the one that is the most likely to be reported.
...and perhaps the least likely to involve "provocative" dress.
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I'm a little surprised the author of the book pictured in my avatar hasn't had someone contact me to remove it... but then, my purpose in posting it is to solve a crime. Or maybe he wonders who I even am...
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 12:35:09 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3671
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From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
Something to keep in mind, Most sexual assaults are perpetrated by men who know their victims. Provocative dress has little to do with it. It's used as a defense by defense attorney's.
This is misleading because while provocative dress is seldom a factor in rapes perpetrated by relatives, it is often a factor in rapes perpetrated by dates; however, both fall into the same category of men who know their victims.
quote:
The rapist who waits in the shadows for a victim looks for the woman who exhibits the characteristics of a victim, not the woman whose dressed provocatavily.
Agreed, but this accounts for a small percentage of rapes.
More to the point the question isn't about what influences all rapes. Rape is committed for many different reasons and many different groups of women are affected by rape.
The question is whether provocative dress can be an influence in some rapes i.e. does dressing provocatively increase a woman's risk of becoming a rape victim, and if we accept that dressing provocatively is wrong does she share some blame for being a victim?
The question is NOT: did she deserve it? or Did she cause it? or Was she asking for it? To all of these questions the answer is DEFINITELY NOT!!!
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 12:37:06 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3671
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From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BugLady
quote:
The anonymous rape in the bushes is the one that is the most likely to be reported.
...and perhaps the least likely to involve "provocative" dress.
Isn't that what I already said here?
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 1:57:28 AM
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buckifn
Posts: 1882
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imo rape is not a "regrettable sexual experience" but a violent crime. I don't believe anyone female, male, young, or old, seeks to be a victim of a violent crime.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 3:50:33 AM
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nevaehs_gaze
Posts: 353
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: United States
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No, I don't believe she has any reason to blame. The only one who is guilty is the man who acted out. HE is responsible for his actions and no one else. Granted, a woman dressing provocatively certainly doesn't help a man who may be prone to losing control.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 8:07:54 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 2196
Joined: 8/30/2007
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What I haven't seen addressed here is date rape. In some of the instances of date rape, the woman has instigated it. She instigated by her dress, serious yes/no flirtation. Sending off the whole mixed signals thing. I do think the woman has to bear the responsibility of her actions in this scenario. Especially among teenage boys. I;m just not sure we can blame all young men in the cases of date rape. As adults, we need to teach our young girls that our yeses, should be yesses and our no's be no's. And that mixing signals is a disaster for any form of communication.
EX: the clothing says, come and get me, our verbal communication says, no.
jmho.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 8:16:50 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 876
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BugLady
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: BugLady
quote:
If a female (of any age) dresses provocatively and she is a victim of a sexual assualt, do you think she is subject to any blame at all for provoking or causing the assault?
No. Sexual assaults are a form of violent aggression. The assault is about controlling the victim not sex.
How do you figure?
An assault by its mere definition is a form of aggression. Violating another person's physical being against their will in a sexual manner is a form of violence.
How do you figure it's not about sex? That seems absurd on its face.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 8:33:14 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 876
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
Do men really believe they aren't responsible for themselves?
Do men really believe that rape is about sex and not about control and violence?
I think it's absurd to believe that it's anything but. Simply put,men want sex, and some will stoop to unethical means to get it.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 8:37:06 AM
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Sideways
Posts: 3949
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Rape does involve a perversion of the sex act, but it had nothing to do with sex itself really. It is a way of punishing a women, hurting her, controlling her, violating her in the deepest way possible. Rape is used in war to demoralize whole families and communities, to rip them apart.
Many women would prefer to get shot with a gun then raped, because of the terrible violation of the act.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 8:50:12 AM
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Qtman
Posts: 9446
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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O.K. it's time for the cop to step forward.
You are all right to a degree. At the same time you are all wrong to a degree.
First of all no one can put a catch all definition on provocative. What one man finds provocative another does not.
Second you can't put to much faith in statistics where sexual assault is concerned. There are to many factors that skew those stats. One there are to many cases of sexual assault that never get reported. Especially if it involves someone in the sex industry. Those women just think there is no need to report it because no one will believe them anyway. After all they are only prostitutes.
Benelchi is correct in that most rape victims, at least those reported, know their assailant. In most cases it is a relative, date or trusted acquaintance.
However, like most crimes committed, it is mainly a crime of opportunity. Very few rapes occur because a man hides in the bushes and says I am going to rape the third woman that passes by.
In cases of date rape there is the possibility that sex is the main factor. In most other cases however it usually, not always, is not. If sex was the main reason then most of them would not be beat up or killed. A lot of the time the rape is actually secondary to another crime. For example, a man decides to break into a home to rob it. Finds the lady of the house there and just says what the heck. Again a crime of opportunity. Quite contrary to what stats show most of the nondate rape cases is about dominance and violence. These men enjoy inflicting pain and humiliation on women ergo the 2 year old baby or the 85 year old woman.
A large number of rapes are not reported because in most states it is not the rapist on trial but the victims character.
With the increase in gang activity the stats are even further skewed. Some of the gangs require a rape as part of the initiation process. These cases, much like the one requiring the killing of someone, are random acts and usually hinge again on opportunity.
In date rape cases the way a woman is dressed may play heavily into the scenario but not necessarily in other cases. I could give many examples of actual cases but I am reluctant to do so because of privacy laws etc.
In short there is no absolute answer to the OP. The answer is yes, no, maybe and that's final.
It does not matter how provocative a woman is dressed if she is not in a position that provides an opportunity for rape she will not be raped. Again, if she is covered head to toe and is in a place where the opportunity is available she is at high risk of being raped.
I always told my daughters to be aware of their surroundings. If they found theirselves in one of those places to leave immediately. You have to take actions to remove the opportunity. There is a certain street in my town where crime rates are high. Where prostitutes are constantly found. It is common knowledge among the residence in town. If a woman, regardless of dress, is walking down the street at night by her self she is at high risk of being assaulted. I would think her intentionaly staying in that area knowing what happens there would be more a factor of "asking for it" than dress would.
Just a few random thoughts from someone who has worked that side of the street.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 9:03:47 AM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 9048
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From: Inside my head
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Excellent post! Thank you for addressing it more thoroughly, Qtman.
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This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/16/2008 9:11:22 AM
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Qtman
Posts: 9446
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From: Crimson Tide Country
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Lioness I don't know how thorough it was but I addressed it from what I have seen and not what stats say. I never trust stats any way. I can show studies and stats that back up every opinion stated on this thread. Thats the problem with stats. It's numbers. Numbers can be manipulated to show what the statistician wants to show. They do not necessarily show the facts.
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STRESS = The internal struggle created when the brain trys to over ride the heart's desire to tell off some jerk that really deserves to be told off.
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