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[Poll]
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Did She ASK for It?
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| Yes, but the assailant is entirely responsible for his actions. |
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| Yes, she should know better & the case should be dropped. |
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| No, a woman should be able to dress as she pleases, regardless! |
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| No, but she should know that her behavior is irresponsible |
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Total Votes : 21
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(last vote on : 11/21/2008 1:33:55 PM)
(Poll ended: 11/21/2008 2:00:00 AM)
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/20/2008 3:07:15 PM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 9048
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
Benelchi, if this thread were talking about "before it ever happens", you and I would be on the exact same page about everything.
It is because it is about after the fact that we are not.
I don't know if that makes any sense to you or anyone else but I sure wish someone would start a thread about the things we should teach our sons and daughters before anything happens rather than mixing the 2 here. I think there'd be a ton less confusion and misunderstanding.
If the "She" had been named, I would have understood this as you had and I would have agreed with you; however, I have understood this to refer to a hypothetical "she". And in this case I have interpreted this as an example that I could use when trying to explain to my daughter how her choices could possibly impact her. I have interpreted this entire thread in the light of what do I teach my daughter (and by extension the women in my influence) about the possible consequences their choices may bring, and why God's standards are always best; for me it has NEVER been about what I tell women who have just experienced the tragedy of rape. I have really tried hard to draw that distinction several times in this thread.
I do understand you. What concerns me and continues to concern me are the multitudes of people who have been abused and are reading this thread. There are thousands of unregistered guests reading here at any one time. That is why the fact that it concerns after the event should be answered as though it were after the event.
Another thread, the purpose of which is to educate our children and young people, would be IMHO the better place to do that. I honestly think it is possible to take a stand for the right thing in the wrong place at the wrong time.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
New Blog
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/20/2008 3:12:53 PM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
Posts: 23538
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From: Here . . . but subject to change; stay tuned
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
Thank you. You're welcome; my pleasure!
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/20/2008 3:16:14 PM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
Posts: 23538
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Here . . . but subject to change; stay tuned
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Elastic . . . as usual, you absolutely nailed it!
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
On another note, I think I need to unsub from this thread.
Bye y'all.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/20/2008 3:22:13 PM
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BugLady
Posts: 2528
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil
quote:
ORIGINAL: hnt
Notice she never mentioned nor went anywhere NEAR the coming on to strangers, being drunk, etc. You are one that assumed someone that wears the shirt does this, and the poster never placed any such assumptions into place.
hnt - unfortunately some people seemed unwilling to consent to the fact that it was a possibility that in a few cases a woman's actions could put her in a place where this horrific assault could take place. i was pointing out a case, yes extreme, but it's what was reported to me by a female. i just posed a situation. it seems some people are willing to think of a broad picture covering many cases while some are laser focused on one example. this whole thread is filled with people making assumptions to expand their case btw.
I don't think anyone has said that.
No one has.
_____________________________
I'm a little surprised the author of the book pictured in my avatar hasn't had someone contact me to remove it... but then, my purpose in posting it is to solve a crime. Or maybe he wonders who I even am...
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/20/2008 3:45:29 PM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 9048
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
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I forgot to say that I won't vote in the poll, either. I really think using inflammatory language is counterproductive and, when discussing a topic as emotionally charged as this one, it's irresponsible.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
New Blog
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/20/2008 4:01:17 PM
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BugLady
Posts: 2528
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
I have interpreted this entire thread in the light of what do I teach my daughter (and by extension the women in my influence) about the possible consequences their choices may bring, and why God's standards are always best; for me it has NEVER been about what I tell women who have just experienced the tragedy of rape. I have really tried hard to draw that distinction several times in this thread.
I have interpreted this thread in light of the legal definintion of a sexual assault. The unwelcome, unwanted, uninvited sexual contact toward a victim.
_____________________________
I'm a little surprised the author of the book pictured in my avatar hasn't had someone contact me to remove it... but then, my purpose in posting it is to solve a crime. Or maybe he wonders who I even am...
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/20/2008 4:03:36 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3671
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
i will concede on this point: choice of clothing CAN be a factor.
i will also say that there are a bajillion other things that can also be a factor,
her hair color
the length of her fingernails
the car she drives
her height
her teeth
her eyes
her hair
her habits
the fact that she is a woman....all of these things can be a factor.
I also wanted to add, while I agree all of these things (and more) can be a factor, those that do not demonstrate rebellion against God's standards need not be changed; however, wisdom should always be exercised before choosing to accept the risks.
Example: Walking down a dark alley at night dressed like a hooker represents two risk factors; one "walking down a dark alley" and two "being dressed like a hooker". The first risk factor "walking down a dark alley" isn't wrong and may be the result of a legitimate necessity; wisdom should always be exercised in these circumstances, but the answer may be to take self-defence training, carry some kind of a weapon, etc... Choosing whether to walk down that alley or not should be done by evaluating the risks, and the choice to do so does not in any way reflect sin. The second risk factor "dressing like a hooker" represents a sinful choice, and there is no legitimate reason to assume the risk.
I think the issue comes done to this, when we have a standard given in the bible, we should act on the standards regardless of whether that standard increases or decreases our risk; however, I truly believe that God has given us the standards he has because they benefit us. Risk factors that I believe would fall into this category would include things like drunkenness and/or drug abuse, sexual immorality, provocative dress, etc.., etc..., etc...
However, when an issue does not reflect a sinful choice, we need to use wisdom in evaluating the risk. In these cases there is no easy answer and it must always be remembered that a woman who does choose to change her behavior in these areas is doing so because of the sinfulness of men in the society around her and not because of any sin on her part. For example, being stunningly beautiful is a risk factor for rape, but is not sinful for a woman to be stunningly beautiful; it is actually a testimony to God's creative ability. In extremely ugly situations a stunningly beautiful woman may feel that in wisdom she must hide her beauty, but her need to do so is a reflection of a horribly sinful society and as Christians we should be pressuring for changes in society and not pressuring women to conform.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/20/2008 4:39:48 PM
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elastic
Posts: 2461
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: NYC
Status: offline
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quote:
I think the issue comes done to this, when we have a standard given in the bible, we should act on the standards regardless of whether that standard increases or decreases our risk; however, I truly believe that God has given us the standards he has because they benefit us. Risk factors that I believe would fall into this category would include things like drunkenness and/or drug abuse, sexual immorality, provocative dress, etc.., etc..., etc...
I see what you are saying here and I agree that for the Christian, this should be the case. but I would venture a guess that most people who dress like street walkers/ get drunk/ flirt with every man they see are most likely not Christians, and so the standard given in the Bible doesn't mean a thing to them.
when i first moved to nyc, my eyes were opened to a world around me that i had never noticed before. i saw teens dressing like little mini street walkers and wondered why their parents would allow such a thing to happen, but then i started to notice how young the parents were, and noticed that they too were dressed in similar fashion. no doubt many people who dress in ways that would bother the standard bible believing christian are getting cues from not only their peers, but from their parents as well.
if they truly don't know any better, and if they don't have the bible as a guide, and if they truly don't know that what they are doing could lead to their destruction, then we really can't apply our standards to them.
i don't really know where i'm going with all this. but some times it seems that people have different sets of morals, and what we'd see as being immoral is seen by others as being perfectly normal.
i'm actually dressed in business casual today, but i'm sure if a middle easterner walked through the doors right now, he'd look at me as if i were half naked. but this dress is normal to me. a burka would be normal to him, or possibly a head covering.
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"Let's get something straight, kid. The only reason you're still conscious is because I don't want to carry you. " Jack Bauer
 I Stand with Israel!
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/20/2008 4:43:11 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 9446
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: elastic
quote:
I think the issue comes done to this, when we have a standard given in the bible, we should act on the standards regardless of whether that standard increases or decreases our risk; however, I truly believe that God has given us the standards he has because they benefit us. Risk factors that I believe would fall into this category would include things like drunkenness and/or drug abuse, sexual immorality, provocative dress, etc.., etc..., etc...
I see what you are saying here and I agree that for the Christian, this should be the case. but I would venture a guess that most people who dress like street walkers/ get drunk/ flirt with every man they see are most likely not Christians, and so the standard given in the Bible doesn't mean a thing to them.
when i first moved to nyc, my eyes were opened to a world around me that i had never noticed before. i saw teens dressing like little mini street walkers and wondered why their parents would allow such a thing to happen, but then i started to notice how young the parents were, and noticed that they too were dressed in similar fashion. no doubt many people who dress in ways that would bother the standard bible believing christian are getting cues from not only their peers, but from their parents as well.
if they truly don't know any better, and if they don't have the bible as a guide, and if they truly don't know that what they are doing could lead to their destruction, then we really can't apply our standards to them.
i don't really know where i'm going with all this. but some times it seems that people have different sets of morals, and what we'd see as being immoral is seen by others as being perfectly normal.
i'm actually dressed in business casual today, but i'm sure if a middle easterner walked through the doors right now, he'd look at me as if i were half naked. but this dress is normal to me. a burka would be normal to him, or possibly a head covering.
The only time I feel half naked is when I am not wearing a weapon. 
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STRESS = The internal struggle created when the brain trys to over ride the heart's desire to tell off some jerk that really deserves to be told off.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/20/2008 5:08:36 PM
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hnt
Posts: 542
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil
quote:
ORIGINAL: hnt
Notice she never mentioned nor went anywhere NEAR the coming on to strangers, being drunk, etc. You are one that assumed someone that wears the shirt does this, and the poster never placed any such assumptions into place.
hnt - unfortunately some people seemed unwilling to consent to the fact that it was a possibility that in a few cases a woman's actions could put her in a place where this horrific assault could take place. i was pointing out a case, yes extreme, but it's what was reported to me by a female. i just posed a situation. it seems some people are willing to think of a broad picture covering many cases while some are laser focused on one example. this whole thread is filled with people making assumptions to expand their case btw.
We aren't talking about those people!  We were talking about the response you gave to a poster, and HER point!
quote:
If a female (of any age) dresses provocatively and she is a victim of a sexual assualt, do you think she is subject to any blame at all for provoking or causing the assault?
Is what the orignal question was.
The extreme case you brought up - YES was brought up numberous time, and twisted in all forms and fashions!
Phos mentioned what she did because her form is the most common. It happens all the time, and everyday...and if I were guessing every minute of every day! YET soceity tends to take the extreme form of it, and uses this to show how women need to be more modest! LOL Not to much about the other direction - which to me seems strange as well! There was ONE comment about how it would HARD to - as if that is a good excuse. LOL yet another poster gave a good example of how he has! I only remember ONE man mentioning how they have - which again seems odd.
Society as a whole - and that includes women - when it comes to this subject always think of the DRESSED to attract, drunken girl or women that either goes into a dark alley or off with some man. That is the first picture they have in their minds, and you can tell that by the questions they ask! What was she wearing? What was she doing at the time? Etc.
They know of the situation in which phos talked about, but it pretty much goes unacknowledged, and maybe that is because 'its to hard' as one poster put it. That's SAD!
Remember!
1)The poster in question DID admit that men do turn their heads when they feel the woman is dressed provocatively. LOL Read it again - its there! She also mentioned that it doesn't take that much to get yourself into trouble most of the time. You don't have to be dressed provocatively. It happens no matter HOW you are dressed, and she is correct! THAT was the point everyone missed completely it seemed to me!
2) The debate (or her point) didn't mention anything about 'extreme' cases. We don't need to use the drunk, dark alley, pushing the buttons, etc. The point of her post had nothing to do with that either. It had to do with point one!
So when you throw in 'extreme' cases when her points were not about that - is still not interpretation. LOL Well unless you are handing out crystal balls! Its called diverting the point she was making, and adding something to it that makes it completely different.
We are talking TWO different issues here!
Her point - clothes and how you are dressed alot of times has no barring on whether are not you are going to be approached or assaulted most of the time. She made her point by mentioning that she - along with alot of others - have been in alot more situations when dress had nothing to do with the approach we got.
Your point - it would if she was drunk and entincing HIM. If you acknowledged her point, and then bring in your 'extreme' part it might have made more sense. You didn't. You dismissed the point, and brought up your extreme examples to show her error. There was no error until you changed the point!
She is talking about herself and others she knew, and you brought in strangers to make your point. You failed on your point, because you dismissed the very valid point she was trying to make, and turned it into a drunk and almost inviting him. Two separate issues. That's the point I see you and others not willing to acknowledge.
You can own your opinion at the same time, but you can't dismiss her and other's personal experiences while using your 'extreme' examples to dismiss them without people getting defensive.
I doubt very much she would tell you that a dressed to cause attraction woman that gets drunk and throws herself at a man isn't asking for trouble if she changes her mind!
She was saying no matter how you are dressed and how you act - you can be approached or assaulted. THAT happens more often than your example, and that's the truth!
You both had point! They were again!
1) Her saying that you don't have to do anything to get into that position.
2) Extreme examples of some some dressed drunk women that pushing herself on men - and leave with him...or whatever!
My point is - you refused to acknowledge the environment in which she spoke even happens! I think that is why more often than NOT most people seem to think 'dress' has a bigger portion in the blame game than it should! "If we taught women to dress more modesty....." okay. You notice we don't speak about men's portion in all this? Because its to hard - I'm sure that poster that said it isn't the only one that thinks this - is a much larger issue to me due to the fact of number of occurances. There are alot of men that feel entitled to look upon women as a piece of meat when they want to, and soceity as a whole doesn't do to much to shut them up either! What part does that play in the blame game here? lol lets subtract the sleezy woman part for a moment, and just talk that ONE portion!
I have to wonder if it wasn't to hard to speak about this to men and boys how that would effect our everyday life's for women! We wouldn't have to worry about going into a gas station dressed 'normally' and not doing anything to cause attention.......and being inappropiatly approached. If you didn't have to listen to the whistles, and the cat calling! If you didn't have to feel the men's eyes on you, etc.
That's the part no one seems to wish to acknowledge - this boys with be boys issue. Maybe if we had enough people on the boy's cases as much as girls we could better narrow down the blame deal without all the bickering!  I don't see that happening, since I think most people are to afraid to approach it! Even tho their women are being overpowered by brute strength....... 
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h
Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/20/2008 5:16:49 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3671
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: elastic
quote:
I think the issue comes done to this, when we have a standard given in the bible, we should act on the standards regardless of whether that standard increases or decreases our risk; however, I truly believe that God has given us the standards he has because they benefit us. Risk factors that I believe would fall into this category would include things like drunkenness and/or drug abuse, sexual immorality, provocative dress, etc.., etc..., etc...
I see what you are saying here and I agree that for the Christian, this should be the case. but I would venture a guess that most people who dress like street walkers/ get drunk/ flirt with every man they see are most likely not Christians, and so the standard given in the Bible doesn't mean a thing to them.
when i first moved to nyc, my eyes were opened to a world around me that i had never noticed before. i saw teens dressing like little mini street walkers and wondered why their parents would allow such a thing to happen, but then i started to notice how young the parents were, and noticed that they too were dressed in similar fashion. no doubt many people who dress in ways that would bother the standard bible believing christian are getting cues from not only their peers, but from their parents as well.
if they truly don't know any better, and if they don't have the bible as a guide, and if they truly don't know that what they are doing could lead to their destruction, then we really can't apply our standards to them.
i don't really know where i'm going with all this. but some times it seems that people have different sets of morals, and what we'd see as being immoral is seen by others as being perfectly normal.
i'm actually dressed in business casual today, but i'm sure if a middle easterner walked through the doors right now, he'd look at me as if i were half naked. but this dress is normal to me. a burka would be normal to him, or possibly a head covering.
I think the issue is that I believe understanding what God meant by modesty is knowable to some degree because I believe that God's truth is absolute and not subject to change because society has changed. I don't think God even intended women to dress in burka's nor do I believe God ever intended women to dress as street walkers. The struggle is in trying to figure out where in between these extremes is God's true intention. That it is a big challenge is something I understand because I don't even know where I myself draw the lines. What I do know is that when I see the example of the women in the group Barlow Girl, I have no doubt that their attire honors God (and these are very beautiful young women), and when I see the average woman on the red carpet entering Hollywood's Emmy awards, I have no doubt that most of these women have crossed the line.
I do understand that a non Christian woman can be (at least somewhat) unaware about the rightness or wrongness of her choice of clothing, and will likely reject any suggestion to make changes, but I do think do think that God's standards will still benefit those who do follow them and I do believe that as Christians we should gently and kindly suggest that there really may be a better choice. Forcing our standards on an unbeliever will never produce good results, but discussing those standards and why we believe it is beneficial might be the catalyst that allows us beginning a discussion about our relationship with Christ. And the reality is that dressing modestly has far bigger implications than simply reducing the risk of rape. It reflects an entirely different viewpoint regarding the value of women in our society i.e. that their value is not based on their power to attract men, but based on who God created them to be. And that is a message that I think those non Christian women desperately need to hear.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/20/2008 5:19:15 PM
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DuckTalk
Posts: 228
Joined: 9/16/2008
From: A Duck Hole in Tennessee
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: elastic
we are all not the same. every woman is a distinct individual and we are affected in different ways.
You are absolutely right. We are not all the same & to you I say, I do understand your feelings. My heart goes out to you (and the others) with compassion that only someone who has been through something like this can feel. I am not a counselor (thank goodness) & as an individual dealing with my own trauma, who is to say that I am not in my own right?
quote:
ORIGINAL: elastic
..... does not erase the fact that it changed me in a profound way. i am not the same person as i was then. it's not something i can just get over. i can go about my daily life and not think about it, and every once in a while it will bubble to the surface and there it is again, all of that ugliness and guilt. it's there. As is most every experience we have ever had. Experiences change us, some more profoundly than others, but I firmly believe that we consuously "choose" how we act & react to everything. If we don't, then we can blame anything & everything on anyone & everyone. Please note though, that I did not say we can get over the incident. I clarified that we can choose to get over our own self-blame. We may need to do this on a daily basis, just as we need to daily die to self, but sobeit then. We do what we have to.
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ORIGINAL: elastic
i can tell myself it wasn't my fault, but no matter how many times i will tell myself that, there will always be that nagging voice in the back of my mind saying all the shoulda, woulda, couldas and i think, gee, it really was all my fault and no amount of years i put behind me makes it go away any faster. I understand but I think coulda's & shoulda's are like what if's & but ifs. They are not factual. They are simply fabrications of the mind that we torture ourselves with.
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ORIGINAL: elastic
i have guilt because i didn't take it to court, and in another thread i explained some of those reasons. they weren't because i was comfy and happy in comfort zone of confusion. one of the main reasons is because i was VERY young and given some VERY bad advice by the leadership of my church. This ALSO is not your fault. You were young & trusting of those in leadership. We are supposed to be able to trust the guidance of those enlisted to do such.
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ORIGINAL: elastic
What did i know? and now i am to blame for the guy doing the same thing to his daughter that he did to me, and whoever else he did it to. again, see? it's all my fault. Actually, I it is more the blame of the guy doing the assauling & secondary, the blame of those who misled you. This is no more your fault than by not voting at the age of 16, being responsible for who became the President elect. NOT!
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ORIGINAL: elastic
i can't get over what I allowed him to do to me and I can't get over what I allowed him to do to others, even though I didn't really allow anything, I feel as if I did. You did not "allow" anything. You were terrified to do otherwise.
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ORIGINAL: elastic
whatever, i said all of that to say that it isn't something you can just get over, unless you are you, and you obviously got on with your life very well if it doesn't affect you at all. i am happy for you, but i am not there yet. No, I did not say that I got over the assaults. I said I got over the self-accusations of guilt. It was not my fault. Your's was not your fault. That is all I said I got over or suggested for others to get over.
May God Bless and be with you through your times of need & work on "gentleness" in my heart. 
_____________________________
Sufferin' sassafrass. The nerve of some people, profitting from other people's miseries.
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RE: Did She ASK for It? - 11/20/2008 5:31:10 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3671
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BugLady
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
I have interpreted this entire thread in the light of what do I teach my daughter (and by extension the women in my influence) about the possible consequences their choices may bring, and why God's standards are always best; for me it has NEVER been about what I tell women who have just experienced the tragedy of rape. I have really tried hard to draw that distinction several times in this thread.
I have interpreted this thread in light of the legal definintion of a sexual assault. The unwelcome, unwanted, uninvited sexual contact toward a victim.
That is how I interpret rape, but now how I interpreted the "question" of this thread.
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