RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to take communion.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 12:12:28 PM
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_jjp_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
I consider it an abuse of power to deny communion to those who disagree with you on anything except as it relates to the life, teachings, and claims of Christ, and even then, you'd better be sure that you're the one who's right and they're the one who's wrong. Jesus offered no teachings on abortion and denying communion to someone isn't something to be done lightly.
Peter talks in pretty plain terms about religious leaders who abuse their authority in 2 Peter 2.
He is not denying them communion, he is encouraging them not to take communion until they seek reconciliation.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 12:41:53 PM
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Born_Again
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
quote:
ORIGINAL: LabGuy
To those criticizing this priest, allow me to pose a question: is it a sin to not oppose an evil agenda when you are presented with an opportunity to do so?
-Robb
Well the Priest is hypocrite. He is not following his own Church doctrine. According to Catholic doctrine, capital punishment is sin. According to Catholic doctrine there is no difference between abortion and capital punishment. So when priest vote for republican he is still committing sin ( according to catholic theology) yet he tells others that they can’t be part of communion because they are sinning.
Without derailing this thread, Catholic doctrine recognizes the right of the state to carry out capital punishment. From the catechism of the Catholic church:
2267 The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.
Yea , and then this is what John Paul 2 said
“"A sign of hope is the increasing recognition that the dignity of human life must never be taken away, even in the case of someone who has done great evil. Modern society has the means of protecting itself, without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform. I renew the appeal I made recently at Christmas for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is cruel and unnecessary".
Abolition of the Death Penalty
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/documents/rc_seg-st_doc_02111999_death-penalty_en.html
I can go on and on with John Paul’s crossed to abolish death penalty.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 12:46:01 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 632
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
quote:
ORIGINAL: LabGuy
To those criticizing this priest, allow me to pose a question: is it a sin to not oppose an evil agenda when you are presented with an opportunity to do so?
-Robb
Well the Priest is hypocrite. He is not following his own Church doctrine. According to Catholic doctrine, capital punishment is sin. According to Catholic doctrine there is no difference between abortion and capital punishment. So when priest vote for republican he is still committing sin ( according to catholic theology) yet he tells others that they can’t be part of communion because they are sinning.
Without derailing this thread, Catholic doctrine recognizes the right of the state to carry out capital punishment. From the catechism of the Catholic church:
2267 The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.
Yea , and then this is what John Paul 2 said
“"A sign of hope is the increasing recognition that the dignity of human life must never be taken away, even in the case of someone who has done great evil. Modern society has the means of protecting itself, without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform. I renew the appeal I made recently at Christmas for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is cruel and unnecessary".
Abolition of the Death Penalty
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/documents/rc_seg-st_doc_02111999_death-penalty_en.html
I can go on and on with John Paul’s crossed to abolish death penalty.
The Catholic church seeks to abolish the death penalty but does not call it a sin, they seek to abolish based on the sanctity of life but they have never changed their teaching that the death penalty when carried out properly is not murder so therefore not against the fifth commandment.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 12:52:12 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1269
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Do you not see the hypocrisy in skipping along into the church singing, "I believe it is OK to slaughter pre-born babies in the womb, and it is OK for two men to mock marriage, and now I am going to go honor Christ by remembering his broken body and shed blood. La-la-la-la-la-la"?
Ridiculous.
quote:
hypocrisy
Only hypocrisy I see in this thread that you think you are without sin and entitled to take Lord Supper. You telling me you never sinned willfully ?
Yes, I am without continual sin, because I repent of it on a continual basis. You are the one making the stupid hyperbole about people being sinless. That isn't even the point here. Did you even read the link in the OP before spouting off? If you did, you obviously didn't get it, so go read again. It isn't about being "sinless". It is about being in willful disobedience, which voting for abortion advocates is.
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worthaboverubies
I don't agree with the priest at all. It's not his place nor his right. It's really none of his business. He had a opportunity to change these voters minds and now has lost it. These parishoners who voted for Obama may not go back to that church. I know I wouldn't.
That is the problem with a lot of soft American Christians. They don't see any room for church structure or church discipline. This guy is IN CHARGE of this church. He can do whatever he biblically darn well pleases in order to discipline willfully ignorant and willfully disobedient, including putting them out of the church if they persist in their disobedience. You say they won't come back? Well bully for them. They obviously don't belong there in the first place.
quote:
blessedinnyc
Do you not see the hypocrisy in denying sinners like yourself communion? Abortion is something that Christians have a difference of opinion on, and it's difficult to get them to change opinions if you are pushing them away as fast as you can.
No, because it isn't hypocrisy to hold a person accountable for sin. "Abortion is something Christians have a difference of opinion on"... big whoop. All that means is those that think abortion is a-ok are wrong. If I were a pastor and a doctor who performed abortions was a church member, I'd kick him out faster than fiddlesticks if he didn't turn from his wickedness. It is called church discipline, something you obviously have no clue about.
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 12:55:48 PM
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LabGuy
Posts: 3314
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From: NW Pennsylvania
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
quote:
ORIGINAL: LabGuy
To those criticizing this priest, allow me to pose a question: is it a sin to not oppose an evil agenda when you are presented with an opportunity to do so?
-Robb
Well the Priest is hypocrite. He is not following his own Church doctrine. According to Catholic doctrine, capital punishment is sin. According to Catholic doctrine there is no difference between abortion and capital punishment. So when priest vote for republican he is still committing sin ( according to catholic theology) yet he tells others that they can’t be part of communion because they are sinning.
Well, that at least is a somewhat valid point based on Church doctrine. But let's consider the scope of the problem. Around 3500 unborn children are killed every day. Since 1976 (when the the death penalty was reinstated), 1,132 convicted offenders have been executed. In 32 years the entire death toll from capital punishment is less than one third the number of children killed daily. Abortion is a slightly larger problem.
Additionally, Barack Obama also supports the use of the death penalty. From ontheissues.org:
quote:
OBAMA: I think that the death penalty is appropriate in certain circumstances. There are especially heinous crimes: terrorism, the harm of children. Obviously, we've had some problems in this state in the application of the death penalty. That's why a moratorium was put in place and that's why I was so proud to be one of the leaders in overhauling a death penalty system that was broken. We became the first in the nation requiring the video taping of capital interrogations and confessions. We have to have this ultimate sanction in certain circumstances where the whole community says "this is beyond the pale."
Thus, regarding the death penalty, the choice of candidate would not seem to matter, leaving one to deal with the issue of abortion. In that regard, the priest does not seem to be hypocritical.
As an aside, if the Catholic Church's position is that capital punishment is a sin, then they are mistaken. Since God himself prescribed the death penalty for various offenses in the Old Testament, it cannot be morally wrong in and of itself. (Issues of application may remain, though.) Otherwise you have God advocating sin and instructing His people to sin, which is impossible.
Now with all that said, I repeat my question: is it a sin to not oppose an evil agenda when you are presented with an opportunity to do so?
-Robb
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 1:34:08 PM
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Born_Again
Posts: 208
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You know entire thread sums up here. I know I am sinner who is saved by grace. All my rightness is filthy rotten in the eyes of the Lord. I know I am not worthy of His grace , yet He sent His Only Son for me so I may live forever. There is nothing, not a thing I can do to earn His grace, but only His mercy made me white as snow.
For those who thinks they are perfect here is a verse for you.
Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 1:47:37 PM
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P31W
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If you are a child of God you will hate what he hates.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 2:00:16 PM
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Born_Again
Posts: 208
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
If you are a child of God you will hate what he hates.
And i should come to you to tell me what he hates , right ?
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 2:01:23 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2021
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
If you are a child of God you will hate what he hates.
But does God hate it? All kinds of abortion? Or is it just you- and you assuming that because you hate it, God does?
IMHO, this is a dangerous assumption to make. Did God hate the Catholic church as Luther claimed? Did he hate the Anabaptists, as Calvin claimed? Do you have any evidence that God hates abortion? God hates abortions that constitute murder, but I am not sure that all abortions constitute murder.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 2:05:14 PM
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P31W
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Prov 6
16 There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him: 17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, 18 a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, 19 a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.
Ps139
13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. 14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 2:08:34 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2021
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Prov 6
16 There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him: 17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, 18 a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, 19 a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.
Ps139
13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. 14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
1.) Embryos do not have their own blood.
2.) The fetus isn't "knit together" until the 2nd trimester.
3.) The only verses that even begin to imply personhood in the womb can all be taken as poetic allegory.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 2:13:39 PM
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vvmyrss
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quote:
2.) The fetus isn't "knit together" until the 2nd trimester.
Actually, this is incorrect. The baby has arms, legs, fingers and toes by the 10th week along with movement.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 2:15:35 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2021
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quote:
ORIGINAL: vvmyrss
Actually, this is incorrect. The baby has arms, legs, fingers and toes by the 10th week along with movement.
Maybe you're right, and abortions even at this stage get pretty rare. In any case, I believe personhood starts sometime when the brain forms.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 2:18:30 PM
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vvmyrss
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quote:
Maybe you're right, and abortions even at this stage get pretty rare. In any case, I believe personhood starts sometime when the brain forms.
The baby has a brain at this stage, just not fully formed yet. No brain, no movement. If the baby moves, it stands to reason it has a brain.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 2:19:55 PM
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P31W
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Bless your heart. The passage deals with the fact that it's God who is the creator of life.
Psss it's a foundational thing in Christanity. 
of God originating, creating
13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. 14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 2:28:11 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1299
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quote:
The only verses that even begin to imply personhood in the womb can all be taken as poetic allegory
Just curious, what else in the Bible is 'poetic allegory'? I ask this because I need to know what other parts I might possibly be able to ignore. Who knows what we might be able to get away with.
_____________________________
Give a hoot, eat yer Lute, Der's no risk in Lutefisk.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 2:37:56 PM
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Born_Again
Posts: 208
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
If you are a child of God you will hate what he hates.
I believe abortion is sin .. no argument there.
I believe death penalty is sin( I don’t want to start a theological argument there, we can do that in other thread) , I believe starting a illegal war is sin ( again not going to discuss that here, we have enough thread for that).
So , bottom line is to me many things is sinful, and come shot to Glory of God.
So, I guess you claim yourself as Child of God , yet you voted for people who support death penalty and start illegal war, you don’t hate what God hates. Pastor should kick you out from Church.
You see what happens when we bring politics and religion in same melting pot. It doesn’t work. If it did Jesus would have said at least few things about it. Instate he was completely silent about it.
As a matter of fact when Sadducees and Pharisees tried to trick him into politics he said “ Give Cesar what is Cesar and Give God what is God’s”
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 2:43:10 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 632
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
I believe death penalty is sin( I don’t want to start a theological argument there, we can do that in other thread) , I believe starting a illegal war is sin ( again not going to discuss that here, we have enough thread for that).
What you believe does not make it so. The difference between abortion, war, and death penalty is that God clearly laid out that there are times when both the death penalty and war are necessary but no such thing exists for abortion. You do not get to decide what is a sin or what constitutes an illegal war, sorry but that isn't how it works.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 2:48:10 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3470
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Since you brought it up I will answer you in this thread. I will also going to tell you, I think you are trying as hard as you can to justify sin ( abortion), and voting for Obama. Point number one, it is not an illegal war, war is sanctified in the Bible. It is not called sin. Secondly the death is not sin being that Jesus never said so, and he did not rescue the thief at the cross, though he was offered eternal life. I am serious if I voted for Obama, I would ask repentance, and try and try and rightly divide the word of thruth. I believe in the either first or second John, will have to look it up, that the sin that John tells other believers not to pray for is the abuse of the Lords supper. In commintaries it mentions the death penalty, it is a sin that leads to death. I have read in commentaries it means physical death. I would say to you to pray for wisdom on this matter.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
If you are a child of God you will hate what he hates.
I believe abortion is sin .. no argument there.
I believe death penalty is sin( I don’t want to start a theological argument there, we can do that in other thread) , I believe starting a illegal war is sin ( again not going to discuss that here, we have enough thread for that).
So , bottom line is to me many things is sinful, and come shot to Glory of God.
So, I guess you claim yourself as Child of God , yet you voted for people who support death penalty and start illegal war, you don’t hate what God hates. Pastor should kick you out from Church.
You see what happens when we bring politics and religion in same melting pot. It doesn’t work. If it did Jesus would have said at least few things about it. Instate he was completely silent about it.
As a matter of fact when Sadducees and Pharisees tried to trick him into politics he said “ Give Cesar what is Cesar and Give God what is God’s”
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 2:56:13 PM
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Born_Again
Posts: 208
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
I believe death penalty is sin( I don’t want to start a theological argument there, we can do that in other thread) , I believe starting a illegal war is sin ( again not going to discuss that here, we have enough thread for that).
What you believe does not make it so. The difference between abortion, war, and death penalty is that God clearly laid out that there are times when both the death penalty and war are necessary but no such thing exists for abortion. You do not get to decide what is a sin or what constitutes an illegal war, sorry but that isn't how it works.
Well that is your understanding of the scripture, and I believe you are wrong. But I am not here to argue about theological difference we have. My point is are you going to call someone sinner just because they don’t agree on Biblical doctrine as you do?
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 2:58:59 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3470
Joined: 4/11/2005
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No I am not calling someone a sinner because they do not agree with me, I am calling them a sinner because they do not agree with the Lord. Get a clue, and get Biblical thinking.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
I believe death penalty is sin( I don’t want to start a theological argument there, we can do that in other thread) , I believe starting a illegal war is sin ( again not going to discuss that here, we have enough thread for that).
What you believe does not make it so. The difference between abortion, war, and death penalty is that God clearly laid out that there are times when both the death penalty and war are necessary but no such thing exists for abortion. You do not get to decide what is a sin or what constitutes an illegal war, sorry but that isn't how it works.
Well that is your understanding of the scripture, and I believe you are wrong. But I am not here to argue about theological difference we have. My point is are you going to call someone sinner just because they don’t agree on Biblical doctrine as you do?
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 2:59:27 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 632
Joined: 10/25/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
Well that is your understanding of the scripture, and I believe you are wrong. But I am not here to argue about theological difference we have. My point is are you going to call someone sinner just because they don’t agree on Biblical doctrine as you do?
Go back through every one of my posts and see where i have ever called anyone a sinner. I am speaking specifically of what the OP is about. It isn't an interpretation, it is one of the things that is readily available to a plain reading of the Bible. It just doesn't fit your personal beliefs so you don't want to hear it.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 3:04:24 PM
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Born_Again
Posts: 208
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Since you brought it up I will answer you in this thread. I will also going to tell you, I think you are trying as hard as you can to justify sin ( abortion), and voting for Obama. Point number one, it is not an illegal war, war is sanctified in the Bible. It is not called sin. Secondly the death is not sin being that Jesus never said so, and he did not rescue the thief at the cross, though he was offered eternal life. I am serious if I voted for Obama, I would ask repentance, and try and try and rightly divide the word of thruth. I believe in the either first or second John, will have to look it up, that the sin that John tells other believers not to pray for is the abuse of the Lords supper. In commintaries it mentions the death penalty, it is a sin that leads to death. I have read in commentaries it means physical death. I would say to you to pray for wisdom on this matter.
Well with Christ love dear sister, I pray God open your heart and may the Holy Spirit open your eyes to understand His word. I will end this thread here by saying , we all come short to the glory of God, and instate of pointing finger to others I will try to pick up my own cross daily and obey Him. Have a great weekend, see you next week.
Sam
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 3:07:10 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3470
Joined: 4/11/2005
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praying the same for you. 
quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Since you brought it up I will answer you in this thread. I will also going to tell you, I think you are trying as hard as you can to justify sin ( abortion), and voting for Obama. Point number one, it is not an illegal war, war is sanctified in the Bible. It is not called sin. Secondly the death is not sin being that Jesus never said so, and he did not rescue the thief at the cross, though he was offered eternal life. I am serious if I voted for Obama, I would ask repentance, and try and try and rightly divide the word of thruth. I believe in the either first or second John, will have to look it up, that the sin that John tells other believers not to pray for is the abuse of the Lords supper. In commintaries it mentions the death penalty, it is a sin that leads to death. I have read in commentaries it means physical death. I would say to you to pray for wisdom on this matter.
Well with Christ love dear sister, I pray God open your heart and may the Holy Spirit open your eyes to understand His word. I will end this thread here by saying , we all come short to the glory of God, and instate of pointing finger to others I will try to pick up my own cross daily and obey Him. Have a great weekend, see you next week.
Sam
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/14/2008 4:40:05 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8040
Joined: 9/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
I will end this thread here by saying , we all come short to the glory of God, and instate of pointing finger to others I will try to pick up my own cross daily and obey Him. Have a great weekend, see you next week.
Glad to hear you've repented from supporting abortion.
Back on topic this priest did EXACTLY the right thing. something the churhc has needed to do for decades. If you're not going to at least try to follow God's word, don't try passing yourself off as a Christian. Either walk the walk or don't talk the talk.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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