RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo terrorist on American soil?
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 5:38:58 PM
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bravjim
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They were captured on the battlefield fighting on the side of terrorists. That makes them guilty of supporting terrorism.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
We did not lock them up because we do not like them, uh, it was because they do not like us in a very big way. Enemy combatants fall into a different category anyway, not Amercan citizens so you know, a mute point.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
Why he bring them to America? To do the right thing. You can’t lock people up just because you don’t like them, in civilized world we don’t lock people up with out trail, I guess after 8 years we forgot how to be civilized. Funny thing is this is exactly the things we were told that we are fighting against.
Before 9/11 there was no such thing called “ enemy combatant” . President bush created this category so he doesn’t have to go thru legal process.
I wonder why are you so afraid of having them to go thru trial? Is that because you know you can’t prove them guilty ? All you want me to do is trust the administration and talk show host that these people are enemy of America?
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I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 6:14:47 PM
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WormHeart
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From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bravjim
They were captured on the battlefield fighting on the side of terrorists. That makes them guilty of supporting terrorism.
Hogwash!
A lot of them was never anywere NEAR a battleground, but were kidnapped by local militias.
Slimane, the danish citizen that went to Gitmo, was captured by local warlords, when he tried to leave Afghanistan across the mountains in the early days of the war.
He was trying to leave to avoid fighting the US.
Why was he caught? Because the US gave a 10.000 $ bounty to the locals for any foreigners brought to them, no questions asked.
It took the Danish government a whole year to get him back. The paperwork has been published, and they (interrogators) didn't belive he had anything to do with Al Queda after the first two weeks of interrogation.
Question: How do you Gitmo-supporters suggest they find out who is quilty, and who is not?
Harsh interrogating? It seems normal interrogating didn't reveal a lot, since they becan the advanced stuff. How long are you sleep-deprieved before they believe you have done nothing wrong?
And just to be clear: Slimane is an absolute slimeball, and I have zero sympathy for him. But he was not caught on any battlefield or doing anything against coalition forces, so that is a bogus argument.
He is currently in indefinate civil arrest (meaning his passport is confiscated and he is not allowed to leave Denmark). And he still hasn't been in any trial.
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 7:12:49 PM
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Dancre
Posts: 1307
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oh now, light, you know America is EVIIILLLLLL  and must let the poor misunderstood terrorists, poor babies, go freeeeeee, like a bird, fly little bird, fly!!! If some Americans happen to get killed in the process of letting the little birds fly free, why then it will be Bush's fault!! Yeah, that's it, Bush's fault!!
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
What? I cannot believe that this goes by unoticed by everyone. What is his motivation? We never wanted them on American soil. They are like cock-roaches, sorry if that offends, but they should never be allowed communication with each other. What does it take this man doing for people to see there is something sinister about him. Are we the biggest nation of fools?
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/12/2008 7:24:09 PM
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dbark
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Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Canada
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Guantanamo Bay considered U.S. soil? All U.S. military bases and embassies in other countries are considered American soil.
I may be wrong.
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"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/13/2008 2:28:45 AM
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dbark
Posts: 159
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From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
What? I cannot believe that this goes by unoticed by everyone. What is his motivation? We never wanted them on American soil. They are like cock-roaches, sorry if that offends, but they should never be allowed communication with each other.
Yes, that is offensive. These terrorists have done evil, repulsive things, but they are not cockroaches, they are human. The term "cockroach" that you use is the exact term that the Hutus used for Tutsis in Rwanda when they brutally "exterminated" about one million human beings - mostly hacked to death with machetes.
The first step towards being capable of horrible, ungodly violence is to dehumanize your enemies. That's exactly what the Hutus did in the 90's, that's exactly what the Nazis did in the 40's. Be very careful - when you attempt to dehumanize those you hate - the first thing you lose is your own humanity.
We have a right to bring criminals to justice, but we do not have a right to take away their humanity.
< Message edited by dbark -- 11/13/2008 3:12:03 AM >
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/13/2008 8:12:22 AM
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Born_Again
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I thought we American believe in justice, believe in “ innocent until proven guilty”, I thought we fight for people like Saddam who used to lock people out without trail, but here we are locking people up for 7 years without any trail.
No way I am saying these people all are innocent. But I wouldn’t know if they are guilty or innocent until we have trail. Either it is a military trail or civil one.
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/13/2008 8:15:19 AM
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Born_Again
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bravjim
They were captured on the battlefield fighting on the side of terrorists. That makes them guilty of supporting terrorism.
[
And you know that how ? Bush administrator told you so ?
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/13/2008 8:17:45 AM
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rhippie
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From: Rich The Hippie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Why he bring them to America? To do the right thing. You can’t lock people up just because you don’t like them, in civilized world we don’t lock people up with out trail, I guess after 8 years we forgot how to be civilized. Funny thing is this is exactly the things we were told that we are fighting against.
Actually, in every war we lock people up without trial because it would be absurd to bring every person caught as part of a foreign army to trial.
That is called POW.
POW applies only to enemy soldiers that are caught in uniform. If they are caught out of uniform then they are spies and subject to worse treatment
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/13/2008 8:30:34 AM
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Born_Again
Posts: 208
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rhippie
POW applies only to enemy soldiers that are caught in uniform. If they are caught out of uniform then they are spies and subject to worse treatment
We caught them in their country , not in America. Don’t forget these people were caught in Afghanistan fighting against foreign Army ( American). You are not claming Afganistan as 51st state of USA , are you?
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/13/2008 9:09:16 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7605
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
We caught them in their country , not in America. Don’t forget these people were caught in Afghanistan fighting against foreign Army ( American). You are not claming Afganistan as 51st state of USA , are you?
Where do you expect we will apprehend those fighting for Al Qaeda; Poughkeepsie?
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/13/2008 9:13:48 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2035
Joined: 2/26/2006
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Former Guantanamo prisoners still struggling
MIAMI (Reuters) - Former Guantanamo prisoners released after years of detention without charge went home to find themselves stigmatized and shunned, viewed either as terrorists or U.S. spies, according to a report released on Wednesday.
The report by human rights advocates urged U.S. President-elect Barack Obama to form an independent, nonpartisan commission with subpoena powers to investigate the treatment of U.S. detainees in Afghanistan, Iraq and the Guantanamo Bay U.S. Navy base in Cuba.
"We cannot sweep this dark chapter in our nation's history under the rug by simply closing the Guantanamo prison camp," said study co-author Eric Stover, director of the University of California at Berkeley's Human Rights Center.
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God at the Center
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/13/2008 9:19:38 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7605
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
"We cannot sweep this dark chapter in our nation's history under the rug by simply closing the Guantanamo prison camp," said study co-author Eric Stover, director of the University of California at Berkeley's Human Rights Center
Great, now not only do we need to release the bad guys, we have to give them gift baskets on their way out the door.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/13/2008 9:36:54 AM
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phreddy
Posts: 286
Joined: 3/28/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WormHeart
quote:
ORIGINAL: bravjim
They were captured on the battlefield fighting on the side of terrorists. That makes them guilty of supporting terrorism.
Hogwash!
A lot of them was never anywere NEAR a battleground, but were kidnapped by local militias.
Slimane, the danish citizen that went to Gitmo, was captured by local warlords, when he tried to leave Afghanistan across the mountains in the early days of the war.
He was trying to leave to avoid fighting the US.
Why was he caught? Because the US gave a 10.000 $ bounty to the locals for any foreigners brought to them, no questions asked.
It also sounds like Denmark doesn't know quite how to handle the situation.
It took the Danish government a whole year to get him back. The paperwork has been published, and they (interrogators) didn't belive he had anything to do with Al Queda after the first two weeks of interrogation.
Question: How do you Gitmo-supporters suggest they find out who is quilty, and who is not?
Harsh interrogating? It seems normal interrogating didn't reveal a lot, since they becan the advanced stuff. How long are you sleep-deprieved before they believe you have done nothing wrong?
And just to be clear: Slimane is an absolute slimeball, and I have zero sympathy for him. But he was not caught on any battlefield or doing anything against coalition forces, so that is a bogus argument.
He is currently in indefinate civil arrest (meaning his passport is confiscated and he is not allowed to leave Denmark). And he still hasn't been in any trial.
WormHeart
It is called a military tribunal, which is more than they would be entitled to under the Geneva convention. Under the Geneva convention, if he was classified as a POW, the US could hold him until the end of hostilities with no trial whatsoever.
It sounds like Denamrk doesn't know how to handle the situation either.
< Message edited by phreddy -- 11/13/2008 9:43:01 AM >
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/13/2008 10:14:54 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 876
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If they're not soldiers, they're criminals, if they're working over international boundaries, they're international criminals and should be treated as such.
I don't get the impetus to throw away American ideals at the drop of a hat. I think actively seeking reasons to give the government the ability to lock people up (no questions asked!) is a sign of creeping totalitarianism. Scary stuff.
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/13/2008 10:18:21 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7605
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
If they're not soldiers, they're criminals, if they're working over international boundaries, they're international criminals and should be treated as such.
I don't get the impetus to throw away American ideals at the drop of a hat. I think actively seeking reasons to give the government the ability to lock people up (no questions asked!) is a sign of creeping totalitarianism. Scary stuff.
"No questions asked"?! Yeah, because the press and the courts and the opposition candidates have never discussed nor debated the existence of Gitmo... get real.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/13/2008 10:49:22 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
That would be a great argument if we ever DECLARE war. That's part of this mess is getting into shooting it out with enemy combatants that we aren't really at war with technically because we are just fighting wars in Iraq and afghanistan that aren't really wars because then we'd have to declare detainees POW's and then there'd be rules and international scrutiny and war crimes tribunals and rules and we couldn't invent stuff as we go because we'd have to explain why omar is being detained after being turned over by a rival militia for cash.
So, both McCain (who was a POW, BTW) and Obama pldged to shut down GITMO.
While I think our declarations of war, such as they were, were more vague that we normally expect or desire, the reality is Al Qaeda does not represent a governmental entity against which we might normally make such declarations. It is in fact a multi-national terrorist agent; I would think it unwise that we would declare war against every country from which it is composed.
How about just the two we invaded?
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/13/2008 10:54:13 AM
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cow451
Posts: 3951
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
If they're not soldiers, they're criminals, if they're working over international boundaries, they're international criminals and should be treated as such.
I don't get the impetus to throw away American ideals at the drop of a hat. I think actively seeking reasons to give the government the ability to lock people up (no questions asked!) is a sign of creeping totalitarianism. Scary stuff.
"No questions asked"?! Yeah, because the press and the courts and the opposition candidates have never discussed nor debated the existence of Gitmo... get real.
So, they're not soldiers and they are not criminals. Cannot havwe it both ways. That's why this new legal system is not working. It seeks to have it both ways.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/13/2008 10:57:58 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 876
Joined: 8/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
If they're not soldiers, they're criminals, if they're working over international boundaries, they're international criminals and should be treated as such.
I don't get the impetus to throw away American ideals at the drop of a hat. I think actively seeking reasons to give the government the ability to lock people up (no questions asked!) is a sign of creeping totalitarianism. Scary stuff.
"No questions asked"?! Yeah, because the press and the courts and the opposition candidates have never discussed nor debated the existence of Gitmo... get real.
...and you support the actions of the courts, opposition candidates, and press?
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/13/2008 10:59:59 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7605
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
So, they're not soldiers and they are not criminals. Cannot havwe it both ways. That's why this new legal system is not working. It seeks to have it both ways.
Actually you inadvertently hit the nail on the head. Internationals participating in terrorist groups are neither true soldiers nor mere criminals; from the outset the administration said this was a new sort of enemy we were dealing with, and that it would have to be dealt with accordingly. Only the most naive will argue for business as usual.
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/13/2008 11:03:14 AM
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WormHeart
Posts: 294
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From: Denmark - pride of Scandinavia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
So, they're not soldiers and they are not criminals. Cannot havwe it both ways. That's why this new legal system is not working. It seeks to have it both ways.
Actually you inadvertently hit the nail on the head. Internationals participating in terrorist groups are neither true soldiers nor mere criminals; from the outset the administration said this was a new sort of enemy we were dealing with, and that it would have to be dealt with accordingly. Only the most naive will argue for business as usual.
I seem to have said this a thousand times, but once more I suppose...
How did we deal with the IRA?
The RAF?
The Baskers in France.
How did YOU deal with the many, many thousand US terrorists that plagued the South as the KKK?
Terrorism is an old song - why should we invent new legal black holes now?
WormHeart
_____________________________
Praise King and Country with might
Bless every Dane at heart
For serving with no fright
The Viking kingdom for Danes is true
With fields and waving beeches
By a sea so blue
National Anthem of Denmark
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/13/2008 11:04:00 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 876
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Actually you inadvertently hit the nail on the head. Internationals participating in terrorist groups are neither true soldiers nor mere criminals; from the outset the administration said this was a new sort of enemy we were dealing with, and that it would have to be dealt with accordingly. Only the most naive will argue for business as usual.
How are these people not mere criminals?
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/13/2008 11:06:36 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7605
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
How are these people not mere criminals?
Mere criminals aren't trying to overthrow governments and set up their own.
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/13/2008 11:15:22 AM
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huangshan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
How are these people not mere criminals?
Mere criminals aren't trying to overthrow governments and set up their own.
We don't have laws about that sort of thing?
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/13/2008 11:19:01 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7605
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
We don't have laws about that sort of thing?
What are you talking about? Laws against an international jihad?
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Why in heavens name is Obama wanting to bring Gitmo... - 11/13/2008 11:24:41 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 876
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
We don't have laws about that sort of thing?
What are you talking about? Laws against an international jihad?
What constitutes an international Jihad? What about a domestic one?
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