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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/11/2008 7:34:14 PM
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Dubya
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As I understand it, Ford and Chrysler are also looking for a bailout.
GroupW mentioned the ripple effect if GM went under. Imagine the ripple effect of all three go under.
Why are these three US auto-makers in such trouble but we don't hear anything from the US operations of Honda, Toyota, and other foreign auto-makers with assembly plants in the US?
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/11/2008 8:01:42 PM
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GregandJenny
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quote:
Why are these three US auto-makers in such trouble but we don't hear anything from the US operations of Honda, Toyota, and other foreign auto-makers with assembly plants in the US? '
How are American cars mad, and how do they hold up or compare to the asian ones.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/11/2008 8:10:46 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
quote:
Why are these three US auto-makers in such trouble but we don't hear anything from the US operations of Honda, Toyota, and other foreign auto-makers with assembly plants in the US? '
How are American cars mad, and how do they hold up or compare to the asian ones.
Well, the "American" cars are made by American workers. But then so are Honda, Toyota, Mazda, and others.
Seems to me a lot has to do with management and the relationship between management and labor. If the "Big Three" American auto-makers have screwed up management maybe they should be allowed to go broke.
The real problem becomes the ripple effect through the rest of the economy which was alluded to previously. Allowing these companies to fail will put a lot of other businesses in jeopardy. There could easily be a chain-reaction of bankrupcies resulting from this.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/11/2008 8:24:31 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
quote:
Why are these three US auto-makers in such trouble but we don't hear anything from the US operations of Honda, Toyota, and other foreign auto-makers with assembly plants in the US? '
How are American cars mad, and how do they hold up or compare to the asian ones.
According to JD Power & Associates, both GM and Ford have a couple of models in the upper echelons of reliability. The new Chevy Malibu is roughly on par with Toyota's Camry. While designs are somewhat lackluster in styling, quality is markedly improved over the past several years with both GM & Ford making substantial progress vs. the Japanese.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/11/2008 8:25:57 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
As I understand it, Ford and Chrysler are also looking for a bailout.
GroupW mentioned the ripple effect if GM went under. Imagine the ripple effect of all three go under.
Why are these three US auto-makers in such trouble but we don't hear anything from the US operations of Honda, Toyota, and other foreign auto-makers with assembly plants in the US?
A big reason is post-retirement benefits. The US firms have most of what could be profits eaten up by the cost of pension and medical plans. GM particularly operates at a $3k disadvantage in cost per car due to those items
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/11/2008 8:43:45 PM
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deliveredarling
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The bailouts just keep progressing, I guarantee that this spring the credit card companies will be going under....
Nobody seems to get that we are on the hook now for every bailout to come. Where is the money going to come from? Do we citizens have enough to pay for all these bailouts? Around here, our salaries aren't increasing. Eventually these companies are going to have to fol because there just won't be any money left.
What's most bothersome is the bank bailouts. They were bailed out so that they could begin lending money again. Instead they used that money to buy up other banks and still aren't lending money. Donald Trump said this morning on Fox, that even he can't get a loan!
The bailouts are very bad news for the people.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/11/2008 8:49:20 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
As I understand it, Ford and Chrysler are also looking for a bailout.
GroupW mentioned the ripple effect if GM went under. Imagine the ripple effect of all three go under.
Why are these three US auto-makers in such trouble but we don't hear anything from the US operations of Honda, Toyota, and other foreign auto-makers with assembly plants in the US?
A big reason is post-retirement benefits. The US firms have most of what could be profits eaten up by the cost of pension and medical plans. GM particularly operates at a $3k disadvantage in cost per car due to those items
So what is the solution? The US firms must have, at one time, had the profit margin to cover those retirement benefits. Even if we might consider the retirement benefits to be excessive they are part of a contract. Do the companies have any options for getting out from under those benefits?
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/11/2008 8:53:52 PM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
So what is the solution? The US firms must have, at one time, had the profit margin to cover those retirement benefits. Even if we might consider the retirement benefits to be excessive they are part of a contract. Do the companies have any options for getting out from under those benefits?
As you said, "part of a contract", so if they filed for bankruptcy, wouldn't the retirement benefits be included in that, assuming the filed a chapter 13? Whether a company fails or not, it still needs to honor the employees contracts that they worked hard for.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/11/2008 8:57:26 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
So what is the solution? The US firms must have, at one time, had the profit margin to cover those retirement benefits. Even if we might consider the retirement benefits to be excessive they are part of a contract. Do the companies have any options for getting out from under those benefits?
As you said, "part of a contract", so if they filed for bankruptcy, wouldn't the retirement benefits be included in that, assuming the filed a chapter 13? Whether a company fails or not, it still needs to honor the employees contracts that they worked hard for.
I definitely agree. And the contracts which should have priority are those with the retirees and NOY with the current executives.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/11/2008 9:00:32 PM
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_jjp_
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There are a few things at play here. One really big problem is that unions have moved from being out to protect workers to being greedy in their demands. Some fault lies with the greedy who work for the unions and demand more and more without while ensuring that productivity, or lack there of, can't be used in their evaluations. Paying someone $40/hr for 60% productivity will bankrupt a company everytime. When employees loyalty is to the union and not their employer there is little drive to ensure profitability and we end up with what we have now. Second the management needs to be purged from these companies for allowing this to happen.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/11/2008 9:18:50 PM
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deliveredarling
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I would think part of the problem lies with greed. We aren't just talking about manufacturing of the automobile business but also the dealerships. How many car salesmen do you know who were honest? Over the pat several years, that industry has gone completely corrupt with sky high interest rates, added on sneaky clauses, balloon payments, o% financing. They did the same creative financing with cars that they did with the houses. I'm not at all surprised to see them going under. management is the problem. Greed is indeed the director behind poor decision making.
It's just really sad that many long term, loyal employees will get the raw end of the deal, while the greedy execs get to retire fat and happy.
Where is the justice in any of this mess? We don't seem to support consequences of our actions unless it's the tax-payer not paying our bills.
We can't afford our house payments, so they take it. We can't afford our car payments, so they take it. They can't afford to pay their employees benefits, they get a pat on the back and a bonus. 
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/11/2008 9:21:22 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
There are a few things at play here. One really big problem is that unions have moved from being out to protect workers to being greedy in their demands. Some fault lies with the greedy who work for the unions and demand more and more without while ensuring that productivity, or lack there of, can't be used in their evaluations. Paying someone $40/hr for 60% productivity will bankrupt a company everytime. When employees loyalty is to the union and not their employer there is little drive to ensure profitability and we end up with what we have now. Second the management needs to be purged from these companies for allowing this to happen.
If I remember correctly, much of the concessions to the unions came about in the mid-60s through the early 70s. I think the executives who allowed this situation to occur are long gone.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/11/2008 9:46:44 PM
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_jjp_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
There are a few things at play here. One really big problem is that unions have moved from being out to protect workers to being greedy in their demands. Some fault lies with the greedy who work for the unions and demand more and more without while ensuring that productivity, or lack there of, can't be used in their evaluations. Paying someone $40/hr for 60% productivity will bankrupt a company everytime. When employees loyalty is to the union and not their employer there is little drive to ensure profitability and we end up with what we have now. Second the management needs to be purged from these companies for allowing this to happen.
If I remember correctly, much of the concessions to the unions came about in the mid-60s through the early 70s. I think the executives who allowed this situation to occur are long gone.
Well it appears that the Unions are reaping what they sowed, it is just sad that the everyday worker has to suffer.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/11/2008 10:40:40 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
There are a few things at play here. One really big problem is that unions have moved from being out to protect workers to being greedy in their demands. Some fault lies with the greedy who work for the unions and demand more and more without while ensuring that productivity, or lack there of, can't be used in their evaluations. Paying someone $40/hr for 60% productivity will bankrupt a company everytime. When employees loyalty is to the union and not their employer there is little drive to ensure profitability and we end up with what we have now. Second the management needs to be purged from these companies for allowing this to happen.
If I remember correctly, much of the concessions to the unions came about in the mid-60s through the early 70s. I think the executives who allowed this situation to occur are long gone.
Well it appears that the Unions are reaping what they sowed, it is just sad that the everyday worker has to suffer.
I think you could build a pretty good case that the unions were very short sighted on some of their demands. For example, the unions even recently have fought against even small concessions on benefits - $25 co-pays on medical office visits, for example.
While the majority of the concessions were granted in the 60's and 70's, the unions have steadfastly refused even minor and reasonable changes in benefits.
Now, it looks like the unions will most likely lose everything they were trying to preserve - in part by refusing to make some necessary but relatively minor adjustments.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/11/2008 10:53:55 PM
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Dubya
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From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
I think you could build a pretty good case that the unions were very short sighted on some of their demands. For example, the unions even recently have fought against even small concessions on benefits - $25 co-pays on medical office visits, for example.
While the majority of the concessions were granted in the 60's and 70's, the unions have steadfastly refused even minor and reasonable changes in benefits.
Now, it looks like the unions will most likely lose everything they were trying to preserve - in part by refusing to make some necessary but relatively minor adjustments.
Then again it was management who gave in to the demands. I don't think it is reasonable to put the entire blame on the union.
Management gave in because the auto business was so profitable that they could not stand to have a plant shut down due to a labor dispute.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/11/2008 11:07:14 PM
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mavrick
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Let's not also forget the skyrocketing employee benefit costs in general, ie healthcare costs, which no one foresaw. This will be impacting retirees everywhere.
Reason for high healthcare costs - government intervention.
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"Never Leave Your Wingman"
"In this world you will have trouble. But fear not; I have overcome the world."
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/12/2008 2:01:30 AM
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ekserekseez
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quote:
Well it appears that the Unions are reaping what they sowed, it is just sad that the everyday worker has to suffer.
It's NOT sad that the "everyday worker" has to suffer. The "everyday workers" ARE the unions. In the auto industry, the unions for two generations have carried out the will of the majority of workers.
The "everyday worker" at GM for decades has demanded wages and benefits that go way beyond what most Americans in similar industries have received. Now they have to pay the piper.
Tough luck. Should have thought of that about, say, 1966.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/12/2008 9:01:56 AM
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Dubya
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From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
quote:
Well it appears that the Unions are reaping what they sowed, it is just sad that the everyday worker has to suffer.
It's NOT sad that the "everyday worker" has to suffer. The "everyday workers" ARE the unions. In the auto industry, the unions for two generations have carried out the will of the majority of workers.
The "everyday worker" at GM for decades has demanded wages and benefits that go way beyond what most Americans in similar industries have received. Now they have to pay the piper.
Tough luck. Should have thought of that about, say, 1966.
I think it is rather hypocritical to blame anyone, including unions, for wanting what ALL people want... a little more. WHy shouldn't they want the best health care? WHy shouldn't they want more money to be better able to provide for their family? Why shouldn't they want a better retirement? Aren't those all things every person wants?
Here is the problem. As anyone who has ever done negotiating knows, the first rule is that you ask for more than what you can reasonably expect. Why? To allow the other side the freedom to trim down your demands and look like a hero. When you sell your car, do you really expect to get your asking price or are you willing to accept a little less? If someone is willing to pay your price, do you say, "No, I was willing to accept 10% less so here is your change"?
The problem is that management was really the greedy one. In the mid to late 60s management did not really negotiate - they just gave in. They did not want to face a plant shut down because of a labor dispute. Why? Because the auto industry was very profitable and very competitive. If a GM plant was shut down for a month that meant lost production and lost revenue. They viewed the demands of the unions as very cheap compared with the profits.
If you want to blame anyone for being short-sighted - blame management. It is management who are paid to be "forward looking" and "visionaries". All the worker is required to do is do his daily job and show up tomorrow. I have never heard (until now) anyone expecting workers to look ahead a few decades. Pure nonsense!
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/12/2008 9:08:27 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Donald Trump said this morning on Fox, that even he can't get a loan!
If Donald Trump cannot get a loan it's his own fault. Banks loan money to people they believe can "repay the loan". Evidently The Donald wants the banks to take on a risk greater than they feel comfortable with. Great!!!! It's about time they told high risk borrowers NO>
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/12/2008 9:10:15 AM
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_jjp_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
If you want to blame anyone for being short-sighted - blame management. It is management who are paid to be "forward looking" and "visionaries". All the worker is required to do is do his daily job and show up tomorrow. I have never heard (until now) anyone expecting workers to look ahead a few decades. Pure nonsense!
with the unions strong arming the auto business it is no wonder that the managers gave in. It wasn't greed on managements part, it was their desire to keep the business running which is their job.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/12/2008 9:12:13 AM
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P31W
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quote:
So if we help them will they get better???
Why haven't they created something that will sell?
If we bail them out, are we sure that this won't happen again?
If we bail them out do all the people at the top lose their cushy jobs???
We are not "solving the problem" by bailing them out. There is NO guarantee what so ever that after a bail out they don't turn right around and ask for another bail out.
We no longer make TV's in this country for a reason.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/12/2008 9:19:08 AM
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P31W
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quote:
All the worker is required to do is do his daily job and show up tomorrow. I have never heard (until now) anyone expecting workers to look ahead a few decades. Pure nonsense!
Just because you have never heard this does not mean it's not true. I have friends who have been warning workers for "decades" now "You don't compete against Jim for this job you are competing for this job with the man in India."
Workers who believed they were exempt from looking head only harm themselves the most.
Pr 27:12
A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions. The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
quote:
If you want to blame anyone for being short-sighted
I don't want to blame "anyone" for what has happened. Nor do I want them to take money from me to "fix their problem". It's their problem and "they" should suffer not me. Let the unions and management work it out among themselves. Leave "me" and "my money" out of it. They created this problem and only "they" should be responsible for fixing it or suffering for it.
< Message edited by P31W -- 11/12/2008 9:25:36 AM >
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/12/2008 10:29:05 AM
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JMiller
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Are we to be subjected to never ending bail-outs?
Now the housing has their handout begging the governmet fot their bail-out.
Who's next the restaurant industry, Bennigan's and shell's and others
have closed many stores, it's just a matter of time till they demand a bail out.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/12/2008 10:43:16 AM
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mavrick
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From: The Danger Zone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
I don't want to blame "anyone" for what has happened. Nor do I want them to take money from me to "fix their problem". It's their problem and "they" should suffer not me. Let the unions and management work it out among themselves. Leave "me" and "my money" out of it. They created this problem and only "they" should be responsible for fixing it or suffering for it.
Yes. Elaborating further, P31W's use of the word "take" is spot on. Money is being forcibly taken from responsible businesses and taxpayers and given to unsuccessful businesses.
Related to this, if money is not "taken" from P31W, he/she has the opportunity to be charitable and freely give his/her money to those in need, especially those who may be impacted by business failures. This is the right and good process God ordains.
Additionally, though often erroneously construed as such, P31W's point is not callous or 'greedy'. The callous ones are those who feel like they have the right to take from successful businesses and citizens and transfer to economic failures. Think about it as a consumer -- are you going to spend your hard-earned money with businesses who treat you right and give you a quality product for your money, or are you going to give it to the company who doesn't?
_____________________________
"Never Leave Your Wingman"
"In this world you will have trouble. But fear not; I have overcome the world."
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/12/2008 11:33:45 AM
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GroupW
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I'm not sure I agree with your "right and good" process as ordained by God. The last time I checked, we are to give to Ceasar what his Ceasar's and to God what is God's. Within that statement, a variety of moral solutions to today's dilemma are possible.
Calling what is essentially a libertarian process "ordained" by God seems like a bit too much of a uniquely American formulation of biblical interpretation.
Just my opinion.
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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