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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/14/2008 7:07:31 PM
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femmule
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Hey tomhillbilly, thanks for the warm welcome. ( "
Ok, we'll get rid of the "follower" definition, fair enough. I agree that people that watch/listen to him find him appealing because of his old fashioned ways. I myself admire old fashioned people, it's hard to come by anymore. Yes, we should stay strong in God's Word, but there is a danger in adding our own opinion or changing the interpretation to suit ourselves.
I myself was brought up Catholic and around 17 left the church. I was never connected, everyone seemed to keep to themselves, the priest(s) were not friendly to children, and I don't remember really learning all that much through catechism and the sacraments. Also, my family basically just went to church to go, there was no really commitment to "living" the Christian life. Although I'm grateful that I was raised in the church (so I at least learned something), I feel that we were "cultural Christians", not "authentic".
In the past year I've learned much about what it is to actually walk with Christ. My family now attends a wonderful a Lutheran church, Hope Lutheran (nice name, eh?). My husband and I are nearly done with our confirmation classes and I am completely amazed at how much I've learned in the past year. Our Pastor is the most authentic Christian I've ever met, and he's definetly someone to emmulate. I go to an in-depth Bible Study every week before church, and our very knowledgeable Elder goes verse by verse and does an incredible job teaching. Our Pastor has terrific sermons (I used to want to nap at my old Catholic church), he adds stories and humor that tie in with the teaching from the Bible readings in the service.
The thing about the Lutheran church is that they always start and end with the Bible and the focus is through faith ALONE in Jesus that we will be saved. My church is a "conservative" Lutheran church, and the members have old fashioned values. I have never felt so welcome or included at a church before in my life! They are like a second family to us, and we all work together and no one is "too good" for any job or assignment. They all seem to really have that "servant heart" that Jesus talks of.
I think it's really hard sometimes for people to just go out and "find" a church. We were asked several times by a new friend to check Hope Lutheran out before we finally did. There is an uncomfortable feeling about just walking into a group of people like that. However, we've never felt so at ease, and there's nothing like being around a group of people that believe what you do, have the same values, support you, and even love you. Being a "Lone Ranger" Christian is not what God had in mind. We as a whole are his church, and he encourages our meeting together to strengthen each other, grow, and to reach out to others in the community about the Good News. It's hard to do all those things on your own. It also leaves you more susceptible to being lead astray. When you have a "support system" you have the advantage of being able to grow even more in your faith and produce more "good fruit".
I guess my question to you is how do you feel about some of Arnold's teachings? Do they really seem logical? What is the number one doctrine he teaches anyway? I've found a lot of problems with his doctrine and there are stern warnings in the Bible about adding to or taking away from the Word.
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/14/2008 11:39:36 PM
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7OFUS
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quote:
Then to back it up they dismiss Noah's flood as merely local in nature. If Noah's flood was local, why did God have him build an ark to save his family and the animals? Why didn't Noah and his family just walk across the mountain range to find safety elsewhere? Plus when God used the rainbow as a covenant to promise to never judge the world in this fashion again, does that mean he's been lying to us all these years? After all, we've had numerous large local floods all over the earth since then. Also, in 2 Peter 3 the coming judgement of fire is likened to the former judgement of water in Noah's flood, and to be consistent, if it was only a "partial" flood in Noah's day, that means the judgement of fire will be "partial" as well. We could go on and on with re-interpreting and mixing and matching to one's own liking here.
femmule, I know this is off topic but, thank you!
I have not heard these answers regarding the flood before. Excellent 
Glad you stopped by.
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/15/2008 5:01:38 AM
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tomhillbilly
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i agree with 70fus- glad you stopped by and FANTASTIC post femmule.
congratulations on finding this wonderful lutheran church you told us about.(ok i got you buttered up now let me address your questions) 
some of pastor purrays teachings seem a bit odd, and i admit they never jumped out at me in my personal bible readings. However, they seem to be logical if taken with the idea that there are some things about God and his word we just cant know for sure. There is a good bit of faith involved in "believing" is what i mean.
The number one doctrine pastor murray teaches is to love God, talk to God and trust in God and his word.
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/15/2008 8:05:49 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6348
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
The number one doctrine pastor murray teaches is to love God, talk to God and trust in God and his word.
That all sounds very nice.. but he believes in/preaches a god that does not exist. Just like your misconceptions about Jehovah Witnesses, etc.. faith, no matter how sincere, is only as valid as the object it is placed in.
What we believe does matter.. what we believe has consequences, some eternal.
Error begets error.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/15/2008 9:33:02 AM
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femmule
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tomhillbilly, there is a real danger in putting "faith" in man's fallible opinions/ideas instead of taking what God has provided us in his Word at face value. The Bible is meant to be plainly read, everyone should be able to understand it's basic truths. True there are some difficult passages, and I agree that God has not given us privy to everything. If he did I'm sure we'd never be able to even finish reading the Bible! Arnold Murray depicts himself as someone who holds the "real" meaning of the Bible. Richard Dawkins thinks he knows the "real" truth too. These are contrasting opinions for sure, but still opinions nevertheless.
I hope you realize that the most important message in the Bible is that Jesus Christ is our Savior and you must go through him to get to the Father. All religions have some type of "God" whether that be a deity, idol, or themselves. Christianity is unique in that we are saved through faith ALONE in Jesus Christ. God sent himself in the person of Jesus to save us from our "fall" into sin.
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/15/2008 1:49:11 PM
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tomhillbilly
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I dont disagree with the bulk of what you folks are saying. It seems at the same time,however there is to much focus on a few interpretational issue that really arent all that important. Pastor murray seems to be fundamentally in line with what you folks are saying, save more of a focus on how christians live and not faith alone. one scripture i wanna add: revelations (chpt 20 vs 13)
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works"
I would like to add a personal opinion: that the whole "works" idea is more "the way we live" as opposed to any particular "good deeds"
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/16/2008 3:56:54 PM
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femmule
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Actually what we believe in the Bible is extremely important. Many Chrisitian religions have added evolutionary theories such as an "old earth" into the Bible teachings. These teachings have caused many to fall away from the truth of the Word. When kids start learning in school and college about evolution they then compare it to these teachings and decide science must be right and the Bible must be wrong. The "old earth age" idea has caused a big break down in the truth of the Bible. Arnold teaches that the earth is millions/billions of years old and upon doing so he's confirming what secular scientists teach. Which I find rather ironic because he thinks Global Warming is a crock, but somehow wants to side with secular scientists (who are mostly atheist and hold themselves accountable to no one but themselves) on the age of the earth.
According to this "Gap Theory" Arnold teaches, somehow there was death, disease, and eating of flesh on the earth even before Adam and Eve were created, which he calls the "first world age". How does he know this, were the secular scientists and him there when this happened? This of course means that sin was present BEFORE Adman and Eve. How can this be so when God's judgment on the "fall" of man was death (both spiritual and physical - no more perfect bodies)? Plus the curse of the land, animals turning against each other (lion and the lamb and us), disease, and flesh eating. The Bible says man's rebellious actions led to death, not the other way around. Then God pronounce his creation "very good" on day six? How can this be if there was death, disease, and eating of flesh, etc. beforehand? It almost sounds with this theory that he's putting Satan on the "level" with God as well, this is very troubling. It's like Satan got to "call the shots" with the "first world age" and then God had to start over and clean up the mess? Huh?
Christianity is a "way you live", as long as faith comes first and the relationship with Jesus. The only "good works" and "way we live" that are acceptable to God follow that faith and relationship. An atheist can live what some may consider a "righteous" life, but without the faith and relationship with Jesus, he's just living in his own self-righteousness, which of course God rejects. Jesus is not just a "good moral teacher" as some would like to label him, he is our one and only chance for salvation. If we do not repent, submit, and have that intimate relationship with Him, we have nothing at all but an intellectual belief in Him.
Consider these verses:
"These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men." Matthew 15:8-9
"The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." John 6:29
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/16/2008 4:25:42 PM
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OleFitzHi
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Tom...John Piper spent 8 years preaching through ONE book of he Bible...chapter by chapter and verse by verse
google his name or type in...
www. desiringgod.org
Also, please, for your own sake, find a church congregation to fellowship with. God meant for us to meet together for prayer, praise and worship. A TV or internet preacher is not the same thing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
kat my only point is a good healthy debate. i made clear that in my opinion pastor murray is a fantastic bible teacher.
the chapter-by-chapter verse-by-verse format also strikes me as fantastic and i am surprised this isnt the norm instead of such a seeming rarity
tell me who your pastor is so i can check them out please. i recall jesus preaching that not everyone would receive him or his apostles,and thathis teachings would bring persecution. I could raise the question that if your pastor has no accusations of false teachings,heresy,cults,etc. then maybe they are just doing the normal "ear scratching" instead of teaching Gods word chapter-by-chapter and verse by verse.
im convinced that Gods word will always offend some people in this world,including christians. Isnt that the whole purpose of bible teaching and the job of a pastor?
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/16/2008 4:27:23 PM
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tomhillbilly
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again: fantastic points about the first earth age theory femmule. To be honest im not familiar enough with this teaching to provide a good answer to your questions. The proof of first earth age seems to lie with their being a "lack of proof", if you will.
My real argument has never been for first earth age or serpent seed teachings. My argument has been that these in particular are such a small part of pastor murrays day to day teachings that i never payed much attention to either. What he does focus on repeattedly though while explaining is loving God, that christ was God with us(emmannuelle),repentance and being a can-do type christian. Also fairness and honesty, good stewardship and things like this.
ill search a bit and try to explain what he uses as proof for the first earth age
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/16/2008 4:31:29 PM
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tomhillbilly
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oh hey olefitz, ive heard of john piper. Is he a chapter-by-chapter verse-by-verse bible teacher also?
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/16/2008 4:33:27 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6348
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
oh hey olefitz, ive heard of john piper. Is he a chapter-by-chapter verse-by-verse bible teacher also?
He is an actual preacher of God's Word (sound doctrine). You should check him out.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/16/2008 4:47:19 PM
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femmule
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"Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another - and all the more as you see the Day approaching." Hebrews 10:25
With our current economic woes it seems even more important that we come together to support and pray for each other. There are excellent churches out there, as I've had the blessing to experience. There's nothing wrong with "shopping" for the right one and seeing what they offer. You are like I've always been, I want to learn, not just go to a service and have someone talk at me. I'm fed very well at mine, not only the Word, but also mid morning coffee and sweets before service - Lutherans like to eat! Ha, ha...
Oh, and here is a great website to supplement Bible learning:
http://answersingenesis.org/
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/16/2008 4:47:28 PM
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tomhillbilly
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cool thanx folks ill check him out some time
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/16/2008 4:56:19 PM
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tomhillbilly
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whew! you guys must really want me to get saved huh? im sorry, i shouldnt joke like that.
i respect your time and efforts and sich.
ya'know femmule now that i think about it... lutherans is a denomination i cant recall being in my area.
im in charleston west virginia now (our capital) but lived most of my time in surrounding suburbs/country
im not sure what i can say reallly about not attending a local church, i guess i lost track of everyone over the years and kinda became somewhat of a hermit. there just seems to be so much drama that goes along with people i dont wanna get involved with it.
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/16/2008 5:20:45 PM
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femmule
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Here's a curious question, if you were confident/assured of the teachings of Arnold, then why did you post a question regarding his teachings to begin with? And how crazy is it that I've been troubled about my father-in-law being one of Arnold's students and just happened to come upon this post! By the way, I can't remember the last time I became involved in a message board, it's just not something I do. I've posted comments on a newspaper site a few times, but not like I was conversing back and forth with anyone.
There will always be some drama ANYWHERE people gather, church included. However, I would say you'd see little of it if it really is a church where people are maturing in their faith. Anyway, none of us are perfect. Hence we should be more like Jesus!
We can relate to the "hermit" idea (so can my father-in-law) I feel like we've perfected it at times. But we've found the people that attend our church are so similar to us in ideas, attitudes (laid back), and sense of humor, that we WANT to go to church. How crazy is that?! Like I said, they are like a second family. ( "
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/17/2008 10:03:33 AM
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tomhillbilly
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good question femmule i can give definately give some reasons why im confident/assured of "arnolds" teachings. The reason i posted was to check and see what people here might think of his teachings. As far as you being troubled by your father in law and finding this post i would like to share one great teaching from arnold.
Ive heard him repeatedly talk about maintaining peace within a family, and that if "talking church" causes strife then dont talk church with them. whenever i think of this i always think back to one of my favorite teachings of jesus-matthew chapter 12 verses 47-50.
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/17/2008 10:29:14 AM
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GodsMusic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
Ive heard him repeatedly talk about maintaining peace within a family, and that if "talking church" causes strife then dont talk church with them. whenever i think of this i always think back to one of my favorite teachings of jesus-matthew chapter 12 verses 47-50.
Those verses show that the real family is the family of God.
That's also why belonging to a local body of believers is crucial.
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/17/2008 10:50:27 AM
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tomhillbilly
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I agree on what these verses are saying godsmusic
as far as belonging to a local body of believers...hey im a hard-case alright
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/17/2008 11:02:31 AM
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tomhillbilly
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i can dig it, maybe i will get involved someday. i would argue that studying Gods word on tv is the same as being in church however. Not quite the same but still pretty good for us hermits
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/17/2008 1:03:51 PM
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femmule
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tomhillbilly -
True talking church is probably not a good idea if there is strife. However, I have no strife with my father-in-law, I love him dearly and I'm concerned about his salvation. We've discussed what he believes on a handfull of occasions with no hard feelings, I have a great deal for respect for him and pray for him everyday to see the real Truth. He tends to dislike most people on a basic level and that's a problem because how we treat others is how we're treating God. If you hold things against others it will be held against you in God's eyes.
I would have to totally disagree with studying God's Word on tv is almost the same as being in church.
Some reasons:
1. You cannot properly assess what someone's intent in when they are on tv, hence the media's ability to brainwash by telling "half-truths" and "not the whole story".
2. There's a temptation to "idolize" those on tv, for some reason we tend to hold a higher regard to people we see depicted on tv.
3. Most of what is on tv is "rehearsed" and you can't interact and ask questions like you can in a real Bible Study.
4. Acting is paramount on tv, you can't actually "know" a person and have a realationship with them when they are on the tv.
I know Arnold paints the orthodox church as "Satan's handiwork", however he never backs up what he teaches and instead just plainly tells people they are wrong if they don't agree with him. Why can't he explain what is wrong with other views? As a teacher of God's Word he is held not only accountable to God but also his students since false teaching is a prophecy of the last days.
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/17/2008 5:11:20 PM
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tomhillbilly
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i can go along with you on what you say about tv preachers femmule. I never meant to give the impression that i think pastor murray is perfect. part of why i admire him though is his in-your-face style. After all he is an old combat marine and a dying breed compared with the rest of liberal america.
with your father in law i can see where he is coming from with people. I dont look for the worst automatically or dislike people on a basic level like you say he does, but a seasoned,mature person can make a pretty good call in most cases. Using proper discernment of course.
now i can tell you for sure why pastor murray paints the orthodox church as "satans handiwork". Not just orthodox but just about all others as well. He really believes and is die-hard 100% with the chapter-by-chapter verse-by-verse teaching method. I know he comes across as a bit harsh, but i gotta agree with him.
if i had cable i would watch joyce meyer, shes the only other preacher that really caught my eye.
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/17/2008 5:55:45 PM
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femmule
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I'm not saying that churches are "perfect" either. I know the church has fallen by the wayside in teaching and has gone along with liberal views (old-earth theories and evolution) to try and accomodate everyone. This has caused a lot of confusion and people have actually lost their "way" because of it. My biggest point is that the Bible should be read plainly and we tend to let opinions permeate what God is trying to say to us. A good church with a solid foundation does teach chapter-by-chapter, verse-by-verse. We need to be wary of churches that just "talk at us", don't have a "learning environment", and false teachings.
My dad was a Marine, my husband's grandfather was in the Army, and my Grandfather was in the Airforce. Yes, old fashioned values are quickly diminishing and our country seems to be turning into a modern day Sodom & Gomorrah. The emergence of "political correctness" and people not wanting to (gasp) offend someone gets really old. Seems like temper tantrums among adults are the norm now, as are court cases.
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RE: PASTOR ARNOLD MURRAY - 11/17/2008 7:36:03 PM
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GodsMusic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
if i had cable i would watch joyce meyer, shes the only other preacher that really caught my eye.
Please don't say it like that 
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