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RE: leviticus Chapter 11 - 11/11/2008 4:02:55 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3671
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
I have no issue with the idea "that the Tanach(old testament) be recognized as the basis for the teachings in the Apistolic Writings(new testament)"; however, it is equally important to realize that the Old Testament must be understood in light of the teachings of the New Testament. My objection was because you began your statement with "I am sorry so many people feel that they need to lead new believer's down the garden path." insinuating the advise others had given to include readings from the New Testament was some how wrong, and then followed with avocation that strongly suggested the books SHOULD be read in KJV book order starting with the OT.
I Love the Old Testament and I would never discourage anyone from reading or studying it because there is a wealth of riches to be uncovered within its pages, but it is important to remember that the Gospel message is revealed in the New Testament, and it is the Gospel message to which the Old Testament points and it is the Gospel message that reveals the heart of the Christianity. For this reason I do believe it would be a mistake for anyone to choose to ignore the New Testament until they had completed reading the Old Testament (even if such a reading was limited to just the "historical" books).
I'm sorry if I was not perfectly clear. However, apart from my reference to the garden path of indoctrination using selected verses without context, there has not been one word of caution regarding the statements that imply that the Tanach(old testiment) be set aside in preference to the Apistolic Writings. If you read my post, you would see I stated that, "The histories of the Messiah(Jesus), Matthew through Acts can be read at the same time, but what is written there is based on an understanding of the previous writings. I would also suggest these books be read in order."
Now, if there is no problem with the Tanach(old testiment) being the basis for the Apistolic writings, what is wrong with encouraging someone to continue to read them as that one was doing anyway. Why must one walk on egg shells and repeat oneself to prove ones loyalty to the gospels? This is precisely what I was cautioning the OP about with regard to the study of the Scriptures. This belief that one must be indoctrinated into what some would consider the proper way of studying the Scriptures without regard to what the Scriptures themselves say about how it should be studied is, in my opinion, less than honorable.
When you quote a reply to creationtalk in which he had said "I agree with those who suggest reading both the Old and New Testaments." and begin with "I am sorry so many people feel that they need to lead new believer's down the garden path" it makes it difficult to understand how you were supporting the idea that it was OK to read from both the OT and the NT concurrently as creationtalk, I, and others had previously suggested. When I look through the history of this thread I don't see "so many people" suggesting that the OT reading should stop, I saw one poster suggest that (something I also disagreed with), so I assume the comment you made about "so many people" on this thread must have included those like creationtalk, me, and others who suggested reading the NT while continuing to read the OT.
If I have misunderstood and you really are suggesting that the OT and NT be read concurrently then I have no issues at all with the advice you have given. Even if your advise really was to read the OT before reading the NT, I still would have no issue with you making that suggestion. It is not a plan I would endorse, nor is it a plan that I believe would be best for a new believer, but I do not believe such a suggestion is out of line. However, it appeared as if you were suggesting that those who suggest reading the OT and NT concurrently are "leading new believer's down the garden path", and if that is what you were suggesting, I do believe it was out of line.
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RE: leviticus Chapter 11 - 11/11/2008 4:18:06 PM
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hricky2
Posts: 9
Joined: 11/5/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wild-Rose
quote:
Its a small church (20-30 people)
Does your pastor invite you to ask questions? My pastor is available every morning from 7:30 to 8:30 for us to call with Bible questions. Any other time of the day we can leave a message and he calls back pretty rapidly.
If you call with a Bible question, does he return your call and try to explain things?
I am sure he would. I just know he is a very busy person.
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RE: leviticus Chapter 11 - 11/11/2008 4:24:24 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1826
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quote:
So what exzectally are the rules. Is it ok in todays time to eat this stuff again? Am i just not far enough in the bible yet where it says its ok? This is the first part i have come to that confuses me.
Under the Old Covenant, Israel was given dietary restrictions. However, under the New Covenant (since the death of Christ and the shedding of His blood) Christians are permitted to eat all meats with thanksgiving. Notice what it says in these verses:
"That ye abstain from idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well" (Acts 15:29). Christians are not to consume the blood of animals.
"I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth anything to be unclean, it is unclean" (Romans 14:14). All meats are clean, but if you have scruples, then that meat is unclean to you personally.
"[False teachers are] Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. FOR EVERY CREATURE OF GOD IS GOOD, AND NOTHING TO BE REFUSED, IF IT BE RECEIVED WITH THANKSGIVING: for it is sanctified by the Word of God and prayer" (1 Timothy 4:3-5). All meats may be eaten with thanksgiving.
Bluethread, the Bible does have the words "Old Testament" and "Old Covenant" embedded in it. That is because the New Covenant (the New Testament) is now in force, and those who revert to Moses disregard God's commands.
"...for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament; which vail is done away in Christ" (2 Cor. 3:14).
"And for this cause He is the Mediator of the New Testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the First Testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance" (Heb. 9:15).
"In that He saith, A New Covenant, He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8:13).
The Old Covenant has been set aside since the establishment of the New Covenant. There is no more sacrifice for sins.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: leviticus Chapter 11 - 11/11/2008 4:53:16 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1669
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
When I look through the history of this thread I don't see "so many people" suggesting that the OT reading should stop, I saw one poster suggest that (something I also disagreed with), so I assume the comment you made about "so many people" on this thread must have included those like creationtalk, me, and others who suggested reading the NT while continuing to read the OT.
I did not say, '"so many people" suggesting that the OT reading should stop." I said, 'there has not been one word of caution regarding the statements that imply that the Tanach(old testiment) be set aside in preference to the Apistolic Writings." Until your last post, apart from my posts which you have critcized, that is true.
Also, I did not say, '"so many people" on this thread'. This is not the only thread on this sight nor is this sight the only forum where study of the Scriptures is discussed.
quote:
If I have misunderstood and you really are suggesting that the OT and NT be read concurrently then I have no issues at all with the advice you have given. Even if your advise really was to read the OT before reading the NT, I still would have no issue with you making that suggestion. It is not a plan I would endorse, nor is it a plan that I believe would be best for a new believer, but I do not believe such a suggestion is out of line. However, it appeared as if you were suggesting that those who suggest reading the OT and NT concurrently are "leading new believer's down the garden path", and if that is what you were suggesting, I do believe it was out of line.
I have clearly stated in bold letters, "my reference to the garden path of indoctrination using selected verses without context." I also, clearly stated what I did suggest and it was not what you inferred. Now, if you had been even handed and addressed your concerns regarding the person with whom you finally said you disagreed, I might not have made a point of it. However, my point regarding using selected verses without context has been totally ignored in an apparent attempt to pursue the erronious belief that I am dissing the Apistolic Writings. Unfortunately, there are many (in this world) who presume defense of the entire Scriptures is rejection of the Apistolic Writings.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: leviticus Chapter 11 - 11/11/2008 5:07:35 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 997
Joined: 11/30/2007
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hricky,
I want to personally welcome you to Crosswalk and more importantly welcome you into the family of the body of Christ. You have a wonderful testimony. As you probably already know, there is a rich diversity of beliefs...in the Body of Christ. We all love and serve the same Master. Unfortunately, we don't see eye to eye on various doctrines. As you can see you are bombarded with alot of divergent understandings of the Scriptures. I do not want to add to your confusion or to already controversial nature of the subject you asked about. My suggestion to you is invest in a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and some good history books regarding the times of the Bible.
I'd start with the Strong's though. Read your Bible and pray that your Heavenly Father will give you illumination of His Word. It will not come over night. My studies led my to understand 2nd Temple Judiasm a little more because this was the context and culture in which Messiah was born. I try to find the who, what, when, where and why.
When I read some of the previous posts, like with regard to I Timothy 4:3-5, I understand that this is written in the context of a time period when the New Testament was not completely written, there was only the "OT" from which teaching and instruction from a holy writ authority may come from. That the Apostles did not teach against the OT they only sought to bring understanding of it. I look up the Stong's word for meats and get a different answer as some of my fellow posters.
When reading the overall context, the word of God that sanctifies the "meats" is Leviticus 11 and our prayer of thanksgiving to God for providing us with food is how foods are to be received. This is an issue that does not have one iota of detriment upon your salvation. Your pastor may give you a different interpretation of this verse. Bluethread said it earlier that you should ask questions and exercise caution/skeptism. Not doubting your faith in Messiah but in regards to how scripture is interpreted.
God bless you and I pray you find the answers you desire to know.
< Message edited by LBolt -- 11/11/2008 5:29:08 PM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: leviticus Chapter 11 - 11/11/2008 5:46:02 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1669
Joined: 11/8/2007
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Thank you, L bolt. It's amazing how quickly one can become boged down in an argument when all one does is try to tell some one to keep an open mind and focus on reading the Scriptures in context.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: leviticus Chapter 11 - 11/11/2008 6:47:15 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1669
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
That ye abstain from idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well" (Acts 15:29). Christians are not to consume the blood of animals.
"I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth anything to be unclean, it is unclean" (Romans 14:14). All meats are clean, but if you have scruples, then that meat is unclean to you personally.
If one interprets Acts 15:29 as a complete and immutable replacement of "the dietary laws" in the Tanach(old testiment), then why not restrict people from eating things that are strangled?
Also, if one can use Acts 15:29 to interpret Romans 14:14 to mean "there is (no meat) unclean of itself.", why can't we use Leviticus 11 to interpret it, "there is nothing (that is otherwise permissable) that is unclean" since the context is vegitarianism.
Regarding the term "old testiment":
"...for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament; which vail is done away in Christ" (2 Cor. 3:14).
You are correct. The term appears to be in this passage. I will make a not of that. However, as the passage states the vail is now taken away, so we can now understand all of it's stipulations. Thus, in my opinion, it does not refer to a different set of Scriptures, but a newness of our understanding.
"And for this cause He is the Mediator of the New Testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the First Testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance" (Heb. 9:15).
As you correctly quoted, it does not say "old" but "first", which speaks to the point I was making. That is not to get nit picky about terms when that is not the issue under discussion. I was talking about reading the Scriptures in context, not the proper name for Scriptural groupings.
"In that He saith, A New Covenant, He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8:13).
Again the word used is "first" and in the greater context this could refer to the priesthood. This also speaks to my point, it is important to read the entire Scriptures to get a clear understanding.
quote:
The Old Covenant has been set aside since the establishment of the New Covenant. There is no more sacrifice for sins.
And finally, the most important point of all. The OP was asking about Levitcus 11 and the best approach for studying the Scriptures. It appears to me that making such a broad doctrinal statement to a new believer is like saying, "Don't pay attention to that it is not important". That does nothing to help him learn to "fish", to use a popular proverb. If I were to hold your viewpoint, I would say, "Let's look at what the Lord was saying in that passage." Then I would go on to show the symbolism or whatever it is you believe is the reason for the verse. It is my considered opinion that there are more than enough dependant children in the family. What I believe we need is more responsible adults who can handle more than just sound bits from the Scriptures.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: leviticus Chapter 11 - 11/11/2008 7:08:10 PM
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Wild-Rose
Posts: 427
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: Upstate NY
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hricky2
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wild-Rose
quote:
Its a small church (20-30 people)
Does your pastor invite you to ask questions? My pastor is available every morning from 7:30 to 8:30 for us to call with Bible questions. Any other time of the day we can leave a message and he calls back pretty rapidly.
If you call with a Bible question, does he return your call and try to explain things?
I am sure he would. I just know he is a very busy person.
Good! Well, there you go! He would probably be delighted that you are digging into the Word!When you have Bible questions just call or write him a note. Don't feel like you are bothering him. Taking care of his flock is his job and hopefully his joy. My pastor is a busy person too, but he is happy to talk to me too. A bible question and an answer can take less than 5 minutes of his time. He won't mind.
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Wild-Rose
Rejoice that your name is written in heaven. Luke 10:20
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RE: leviticus Chapter 11 - 11/11/2008 7:10:06 PM
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Wild-Rose
Posts: 427
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: Upstate NY
Status: online
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And welcome to the forums too! Of course you can continue to ask your questions here but it is good to build a nice relationship with your pastor. That is the only reason I was pointing you in that direction.
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Wild-Rose
Rejoice that your name is written in heaven. Luke 10:20
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RE: leviticus Chapter 11 - 11/11/2008 7:33:45 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1669
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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Sorry for the controversy. You might want to talk to other believers that you see throughout the day. That is what the Duet. 6 verse I mentioned earlier is talking about. If you don't know if anyone around you reads the Scriptures ask? You'd be surprised how many stealth believers there are.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: leviticus Chapter 11 - 11/11/2008 8:18:27 PM
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hricky2
Posts: 9
Joined: 11/5/2008
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Well most of it i can figure out because i have the life application bible that breaks it down for me. I also understand that that is there interpertation of it though.
I did also find myself using there notes when i read through matthew yesterday and today just because of alot of the proverbs that jesus uses. But i also see where the new testiment gives you a little background from the old testiment. I though i would have to read the old testiment before i would be able to understand the new. But with your help i have found i can read a lil of both. Like now i am starting on numbers and mark ..
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RE: leviticus Chapter 11 - 11/11/2008 8:50:58 PM
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Wild-Rose
Posts: 427
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: Upstate NY
Status: online
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As you read the NT pay attention to the way that Jesus uses the OT. He is showing them how HE fulfills the prophesies, among many other lesson s he draws from it. Then when you read the OT you will be able to see how it all ties together.
_____________________________
Wild-Rose
Rejoice that your name is written in heaven. Luke 10:20
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RE: leviticus Chapter 11 - 11/11/2008 11:19:40 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3671
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I said, 'there has not been one word of caution regarding the statements that imply that the Tanach(old testiment) be set aside in preference to the Apistolic Writings." Until your last post, apart from my posts which you have critcized, that is true.
Also, I did not say, '"so many people" on this thread'. This is not the only thread on this sight nor is this sight the only forum where study of the Scriptures is discussed.
Now, if you had been even handed and addressed your concerns regarding the person with whom you finally said you disagreed, I might not have made a point of it.
Your presupposition that people are dismissing the OT seems to have blinded you. Note that I did address the original poster in this post nearly a day before your post was made, and creationtalk's post that I had quoted from earlier was also nearly a day before your post. Additionally while my original post quoted the poster who had encouraged setting aside the OT for the time being, your original post quoted a reply to creationtalk's post who advocated reading both the OT and NT. A whole lot of my misunderstanding of your post came about because you chose to quote a poster who had not in any way advocated what you were criticizing. I still don't understand why you would have chosen to quote the reply to creationtalk's post, and then respond so critically if you were actually in agreement to what creationtalk had said; it really left a lot of room for misinterpretation.
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RE: leviticus Chapter 11 - 11/11/2008 11:27:07 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3671
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wild-Rose
As you read the NT pay attention to the way that Jesus uses the OT. He is showing them how HE fulfills the prophesies, among many other lesson s he draws from it. Then when you read the OT you will be able to see how it all ties together.
This is great advise. I also want to point out that it really is a life long adventure, as you read more of the OT you discover how it ties to the NT and then you read the NT and see how it ties to the OT and then you start all over again and find something new all over again. There is so much in the bible to learn, that it will take more than a lifetime to discover it all.
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RE: leviticus Chapter 11 - 11/12/2008 2:53:39 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1669
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wild-Rose
As you read the NT pay attention to the way that Jesus uses the OT. He is showing them how HE fulfills the prophesies, among many other lesson s he draws from it. Then when you read the OT you will be able to see how it all ties together.
You might also see how He clarifies what He inspired in the first place.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: leviticus Chapter 11 - 11/13/2008 4:43:29 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 997
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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Here's a pretty neat link: http://www.seedofabraham.net/law102.html
Look at other sources and counterarguments, reread the Scripture, pray and allow the Holy Spirit to illuminate the text.
By all means rely on the voice of the Holy Spirit, through the Word of God to be your final authority.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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