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How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/9/2008 7:18:59 AM
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Memaw.
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Read This First
So, how old is old enough to prosecute as an adult?
At what age does a child truly understand and is able to reason as an adult and be punished as an adult?
_____________________________
<-- Squirt
A government big enough to give you everything you want,
is strong enough to take everything you have.
....Thomas Jefferson
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RE: How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/9/2008 8:27:08 AM
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stellaluna
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Eight is too young, and I can't think of a state that has laws allowing 8yos to be prosecuted as adults. The cut off is usually 11 or 12. (The article says Arizona allows 8yos to be charged, but not whether they can be prosecuted as adults.)
I think 8 is old enough to know right from wrong, and obviously to plan such crime, but prosecuting as an adult has implications for punishment I don't like. I wouldn't be surprised to see child prisons popping up--not juvie, actual prisons--as kids become more violent and depraved.
This happened this week as well: http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5irpWhHfH_wTEP4VEup5GCcoU-q4A
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RE: How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/9/2008 5:17:38 PM
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litfire2000
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How old indeed? Chronological age alone may be insufficient. Mental and emotional development should play a part in making the determination. But, in any case, eight years old? NO!
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RE: How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/9/2008 8:16:57 PM
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mikejonesoftn
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Every 8 year old is different. Every 12 year old is different. I don't think there should be a set age for a kid being trialed as an adult in some cases. I think you have to look at more than the child's age. Look at the child past period. The 8 year old can have a mind of a 18 yr old. On the other hand an 8 year old can have the actual mind of an 8 year old, and still commit a crime not knowing the seriousness of it.
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RE: How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/10/2008 11:14:15 AM
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Kerrlaw
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Eight is not enough.
I suspect that there will be a competency hearing and the child will be found incompetent to have committed murder.
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That which does not kill us makes us fatter. ~ crankius
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RE: How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/10/2008 12:27:54 PM
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1love1God1way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kerrlaw
Eight is not enough.
I suspect that there will be a competency hearing and the child will be found incompetent to have committed murder.
He seemed perfectly competent to me . . .
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RE: How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/10/2008 2:43:52 PM
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Memaw.
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quote:
The 8 year old can have a mind of a 18 yr old.
How can that be possible?
_____________________________
<-- Squirt
A government big enough to give you everything you want,
is strong enough to take everything you have.
....Thomas Jefferson
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RE: How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/10/2008 3:13:48 PM
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Child4Jesus
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What do you, generally speaking, suggest is done?
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In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/10/2008 6:28:57 PM
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laura...
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I think 8 years old is too young. I also do not think any minor under the age of 16 should be tried as an adult. Part of being competent to stand trial is the ability to direct your own defense. Minors cannot direct their own defense.
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This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/10/2008 10:58:13 PM
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Kerrlaw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kerrlaw
Eight is not enough.
I suspect that there will be a competency hearing and the child will be found incompetent to have committed murder.
He seemed perfectly competent to me . . .
Not incompetent in the sense that there is a mental illness or defect. Just that he is not capable (due to maturity level) to be held responsible for premeditated murder.
_____________________________
That which does not kill us makes us fatter. ~ crankius
Coffee sinners lovers click here.
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RE: How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/12/2008 11:08:22 AM
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mrtigger
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For a planned double homicide, 8 is old enough to prosecute for murder. 8 year olds know right from wrong. Maybe the sentence should be reduced based on his age, but it should not be dealt with as just a juvie offense.
Lawyers direct the defense, not the accused. For trial competency, all the defendant has to be is competent enough to assist with their own defense.
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mr tigger
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RE: How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/12/2008 11:18:45 AM
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laura...
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quote:
Lawyers direct the defense, not the accused. For trial competency, all the defendant has to be is competent enough to assist with their own defense.
Children cannot competently choose their own lawyer or make informed decisions in regards to legal procedings. Their parents make them. Children can easily be manipulated or forced to plead guilty when they shouldn't. I do not believe that minors should be tried as adults. They're not adults. At the same time, I believe that the juvenile justice system does not adequately address violent or capital crimes committed by juveniles. There should be another alternative.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/12/2008 11:24:12 AM
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relady
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quote:
I do not believe that minors should be tried as adults. They're not adults. At the same time, I believe that the juvenile justice system does not adequately address violent or capital crimes committed by juveniles. There should be another alternative. I agree! When you start making "exceptions" to try younger minors as adults, you are on the slippery slope we now find ourselves on...even discussing trying an 8 year old child as an adult is just...just....I can't even find the words....
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RE: How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/12/2008 12:03:54 PM
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Focusing
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Children have an understanding of *right* and *wrong* at different ages. It all depends, but I do believe that 8 is too young to be persecuted as an adult.
This tragedy is a real shame. None of us, including the prosecutors and law enforcement, really know what this child was exposed to in his home.
IMHO, this could very well be the product of violence that is so commonplace in our society. Look at the shows children watch, the movies they see, the music they listen to, and the games they play. A real shame ... and it affects so many children. They are exposed to violence everywhere they turn, and as parents we must be on the watch constantly!
Phil 4:8 ... think on these things ... what is right and true and pure ... but what are these children thinking on? Violence and murder and drugs and sex.
Ah!!!
Okay, I am somewhat passionate on this subject. Society as a whole is sickening.
We really need to be praying for this child and other children who might consider being copycats.
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Instead of a gem, or even a flower, we should cast the gift of a loving thought into the heart of a friend. That would be giving as the angels give.
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RE: How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/12/2008 4:46:31 PM
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allisonbrett
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Children don't always have the concept that murder/death is final. They may understand death but not the permanency of it. Look at cartoons. How many times do Wile E Coyote, Daffy Duck or Bugs Bunny show "death" is not permanent.
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RE: How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/12/2008 8:11:46 PM
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tomhillbilly
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The article we were instructed to read first includes quotes on how rare it is for a person so young to kill. They also seem to describe it as an "open and shut case".
Let me say regarding the rarity that i agree,its something i never really heard of at all before. I was drawn to the mention of a man renting a room in these peoples home. It seems very likely there is more to this story then we know
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RE: How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/12/2008 9:50:10 PM
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Child4Jesus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
I think 8 years old is too young. I also do not think any minor under the age of 16 should be tried as an adult. Part of being competent to stand trial is the ability to direct your own defense. Minors cannot direct their own defense.
Not sure how far you would get with that. There are 15 year old's, who rape, burglarize, strong arm rob/gun point rob and murder people. What do you suggest is done with them? Put these violent people in Juvenile Hall with other people who committed less serious crimes? Send them home to mommy and daddy?
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/12/2008 10:51:03 PM
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relady
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quote:
Children have an understanding of *right* and *wrong* at different ages. They do, but what they DON'T possess at very young ages is a real appreciation of the potential consequences. Their brain is not developed enough to fully understand and thus make a wise decision. There is good research now that shows the part of the brain that governs making wise decisions and not taking stupid chances is the very last part of the brain to fully mature - at around 21 years of age or so. There is absolutely no way an 8 year old should EVER be treated as an adult.
quote:
It seems very likely there is more to this story then we know I am quite sure this is true.
quote:
There are 15 year old's, who rape, burglarize, strong arm rob/gun point rob and murder people. What do you suggest is done with them? Put these violent people in Juvenile Hall with other people who committed less serious crimes? I don't know that I have a really good answer for that, but I'm pretty sure treating a child as an adult isn't the right one.
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RE: How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/12/2008 10:55:14 PM
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Memaw.
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quote:
There is good research now that shows the part of the brain that governs making wise decisions and not taking stupid chances is the very last part of the brain to fully mature - at around 21 years of age or so.
Good point, so if this is true, do you think that a 14 yr old is "responsible" for their actions and should be punished as an adult?
16 yr old?
18 old for that matter?
_____________________________
<-- Squirt
A government big enough to give you everything you want,
is strong enough to take everything you have.
....Thomas Jefferson
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RE: How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/13/2008 2:37:48 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I didn't have a television in my home until I was twenty, so I missed a lot of both the intelligence and ignorance that TV transmits to young people. As a result, I have just taken it for granted that others knew what they were talking about when they said that a child's reality of how life works is influenced enough by TV that they don't understand that dead means dead, never again to rrevive, never again to function. I also thought they knew what they were talking about when they said that the 30-minute show teaches that family conflict can be resolved in 30-minute segments, never to evolve or emerge again.
But I wonder . . . .
I know this: that when I was a child, I fully believed that a person in my childhood home would definitely eventually kill me with the ax that hung in the mudroom, and that when they did it, there would be pain, blood, and death, never again to return. I also understood when my best friend Joey was killed by a drunk driver, that he would never come back and would never walk back up F Street and ask me to cross Brett to come play with him again.
Personally, I believe that a child, unless they have a very low IQ, can easily separate reality from fiction, especially an 8-year-old, who is in 3rd grade or so. I know that I have a great grasp of reality at that age.
I also believe that no 8-year-old will murder another without having been driven, by some very serious actions, to that point by the very ones he murdered. When I was eight, my anger was very pointed toward the one whom I feared, and it did not spill over to the innocent ones.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/13/2008 2:52:42 PM
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laura...
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quote:
From: Definition of Competent to stand trial
Due process requires that a defendant be competent to stand trial, which includes capacity to assist counsel and to understand the nature of the proceeding sufficiently to participate in and make decisions about rights afforded to defendants.
What 8 year old has the capacity to assist counsel and understand the nature of the proceedings sufficiently to understand his rights let alone make decisions about those rights? When does an adult defendent ever require that his parents make all the legal decisions regarding a criminal trial? Children do not have adult rights so how can they be tried as adults? What 8 year old would even understand his Miranda rights?
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/15/2008 5:35:52 PM
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lea84
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I am reading a book called "The Trouble with Alex" where a severely emotionally disturbed girl made an attempt to kill her mother. If she had been successful I think to myself, should she be prosecuted? I don't know. At the same time I have read articles of an 8 year old being arrested in handcuffs and being taken to the jail to get processed. If that can happen why don't they continue on that line and prosecute?
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RE: How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/15/2008 7:05:57 PM
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relady
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quote:
Good point, so if this is true, do you think that a 14 yr old is "responsible" for their actions and should be punished as an adult?
16 yr old?
18 old for that matter? If you mean "responsible" as an adult, on the 14 and 16 year old, I say no. On the 18 year old that gets a little more murky. I really have a difficult time giving 18 year olds all the "responsibility" of an adult while we don't give them all the "perks" precisely because they aren't mature enough to handle them. Our view on this seem a little bi-polar to me. I mean, if we determine that they aren't mature enough for the perks how can they possibly be mature enough to suffer adult consequences?
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RE: How Old Is Old Enough? - 11/17/2008 2:27:25 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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To those who don't think a 16- or 15-year-old understands the permanence of murder --
Okay. I wasn't going to write it. It horrifies me in so many ways. But when I was 15, I stood at the rack holding our butcher knives, shaking, trying to remove the largest one there, because my intention was to kill the person who was beating my sister, after that person had already beat her to the floor. My sister was not fighting back, just trying to defend herself and the newly-formed child in her womb. I shook so hard with what was going on and with my intentions that I could not remmove that knife, because it did not belong to the set and it was difficult to put in and to remove.
I knew exactly what I was about to do. The only reason I didn't carry it out was because the beating began to subside, and I slipped back into my room.
15-year-olds aren't so stupid that they don't understand that fully. It is we who are ignorant when we think they are ignorant. And I would suggest that an 8-year-old knows, too, but may have been driven to that point, as I was.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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