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RE: A Change Is Gonna Come - 11/8/2008 1:05:09 PM
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relady
Posts: 1219
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From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
Well I don't know about Missouri , but we have this requirement here --- don't meet the requirement of hours to community service no diploma. The problem with this is, for credit, it has to be done at recognized community organizations (replacing what would otherwise be the place of a paid employee), thereby saving local or state gov. money.
They can not help individuals in their community --- such as the handicap or elderly, say rake their lawn and other outside work, paint inside or outside, wash widows and etc. --- no credit for this type of serve. I DO know about Missouri (for those who think I'm spouting off without research). Yep, it's a requirement for movement from middle school to HS and from HS to graduation. I *think* (if i remember correctly) it was 20 hours for my son through middle school and 50 for HS. Our kids are allowed to select what they want to do. Time doing community things for Boy Scouts for instance counts. Church volunteer programs, putting in time in nursing homes or other things for the elderly. They had a VERY wide range of things to choose from. My son, in 7th & 8th grade, went back to his elementary school and worked with kids on reading. It was good for him to have to do that and I had no problem with it whatsoever.
No one is going to force adults into doing community service if they don't want to. But getting kids to do community service for college money? I have no problem with that either.
Here in MO we have the A+ program that will pay for two years at a community college -- do you think they offer that or should offer it without strings? Part of the requirement is that you do a minimum of 50 hours per year during HS of community service. If you don't want or need two free years of college, you don't have to participate. You only have to do the minimum 50 hours to graduate. I have no problem with that, and i have yet to meet a parent who does have a problem with it. Of course -- it's not called volunteering, it's properly called community service.
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RE: A Change Is Gonna Come - 11/8/2008 1:09:50 PM
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StephK
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From: Southwest Louisiana
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Incentives for doing the service is different from what was originally on the web site.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: A Change Is Gonna Come - 11/8/2008 1:46:52 PM
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Melodyes_Song
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This is my issue with forcing anyone to voluteer, then it is not voluteering, this includes children. There should never be a requirement to voluteer to get an education, that is indoctrination and it takes away a parents right to decide what is best for their child period. People should volunteer where and if God leads them too, not because someone decided it was a great idea.
This also is not any different than how Nazism overtook Germany, see Hitler's Youth and several other programs, nor is it any different than things that go on in North Korea, the levels are just not that extreme YET. This is government intrusion into private lives and is wrong on many levels.
Community service is a heart issue and not a government issue.
_____________________________
Mel
http://www.avoiceformoms.blogspot.com/
A Conservative Voice for Moms
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RE: A Change Is Gonna Come - 11/9/2008 12:14:47 PM
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Pat-rebel_lady
Posts: 716
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Melodyes_Song
This is my issue with forcing anyone to volunteer, then it is not volunteering, this includes children. There should never be a requirement to volunteer to get an education, that is indoctrination and it takes away a parents right to decide what is best for their child period. People should volunteer where and if God leads them too, not because someone decided it was a great idea.
This also is not any different than how Nazism overtook Germany, see Hitler's Youth and several other programs, nor is it any different than things that go on in North Korea, the levels are just not that extreme YET. This is government intrusion into private lives and is wrong on many levels.
Community service is a heart issue and not a government issue.
I AGREE!!!!!!
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RE: A Change Is Gonna Come - 11/10/2008 10:36:01 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10376
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From: Lone Star State
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quote:
I DO know about Missouri (for those who think I'm spouting off without research). Yep, it's a requirement for movement from middle school to HS and from HS to graduation. I *think* (if i remember correctly) it was 20 hours for my son through middle school and 50 for HS. Our kids are allowed to select what they want to do. Time doing community things for Boy Scouts for instance counts. Church volunteer programs, putting in time in nursing homes or other things for the elderly. They had a VERY wide range of things to choose from. My son, in 7th & 8th grade, went back to his elementary school and worked with kids on reading. It was good for him to have to do that and I had no problem with it whatsoever. So much for a free public education then, no matter what the service being required is. I thought that was one of the cornerstones of our country?
I'd be a part of a lawsuit so fast it'd make your head spin if I lived in MO.
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: A Change Is Gonna Come - 11/10/2008 11:16:46 AM
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JustJeannie
Posts: 5125
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From: the state of confusion
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
quote:
I DO know about Missouri (for those who think I'm spouting off without research). Yep, it's a requirement for movement from middle school to HS and from HS to graduation. I *think* (if i remember correctly) it was 20 hours for my son through middle school and 50 for HS. Our kids are allowed to select what they want to do. Time doing community things for Boy Scouts for instance counts. Church volunteer programs, putting in time in nursing homes or other things for the elderly. They had a VERY wide range of things to choose from. My son, in 7th & 8th grade, went back to his elementary school and worked with kids on reading. It was good for him to have to do that and I had no problem with it whatsoever. So much for a free public education then, no matter what the service being required is. I thought that was one of the cornerstones of our country?
I'd be a part of a lawsuit so fast it'd make your head spin if I lived in MO.
I totally agree with you, Ben. I only live ten minutes from MO, and I had no idea that was a requirement. Sad, IMHO.
_____________________________
Jeannie
Mah brain...it hurts...
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RE: A Change Is Gonna Come - 11/10/2008 11:26:21 AM
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relady
Posts: 1219
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From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
There should never be a requirement to voluteer to get an education, that is indoctrination and it takes away a parents right to decide what is best for their child period. Huh? If you don't want the college money then don't take it and pay for it yourself. As far as HS kids providing community service, as long as they get to choose what they want to do - within some very broad parameters - I don't know how that can be considered indoctrination.
quote:
I'd be a part of a lawsuit so fast it'd make your head spin if I lived in MO. How is having kids do some community service, THAT THEY GET TO CHOOSE, a bad thing. It's a law in Missouri and frankly this is the first place I've ever posted where anyone has ever said they think community service by kids is somehow "wrong". What is so awful about this? Our kids get to choose what they do and let's get real - 20 hours for middle school kids and 50 for HS kids is a drop in the bucket. It's good for them.
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RE: A Change Is Gonna Come - 11/10/2008 11:28:38 AM
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relady
Posts: 1219
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From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
So much for a free public education then, no matter what the service being required is. What? We aren't PAYING anything for the community service. What is so awful about this? What makes it not free? Does free to you mean no strings attached? What planet are you living on -- nothing is free by that definition. LOL, you guys are just really amusing. You want your cake and eat it to. Hahahahaaaa.
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RE: A Change Is Gonna Come - 11/10/2008 11:31:31 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Here in MO we have the A+ program that will pay for two years at a community college -- do you think they offer that or should offer it without strings? Part of the requirement is that you do a minimum of 50 hours per year during HS of community service. If you don't want or need two free years of college, you don't have to participate. You only have to do the minimum 50 hours to graduate. I have no problem with that, and i have yet to meet a parent who does have a problem with it. Of course -- it's not called volunteering, it's properly called community service.
Here in my county we have guaranteed tuition payment. Local people, churches and businesses give 100% guarante 2 yr college education to all HS graduates in our county. The only requirment is they maintain a "C" average while in college.
No need for the gov. to do squat. People who want to help support this program give freely of their surpuls. Those who don't want to give don't give. Again no big tax burden or red tape. Just folks using their brains to do what "we" want to do. We earned the money and we are the ones best able to use our money in ways "we" see fit. Not some politician.
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RE: A Change Is Gonna Come - 11/10/2008 11:33:23 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2504
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
The Dear Leader has his "Office of the President-Elect" site up and one of the changes he wants is for "mandatory voluntary" community service for us all. 
quote:
America Serves
"When you choose to serve --
The Obama Administration will call on Americans to serve in order to meet the nation’s challenges. President-Elect Obama will expand national service programs like AmeriCorps and Peace Corps and will create a new Classroom Corps to help teachers in underserved schools, as well as a new Health Corps, Clean Energy Corps, and Veterans Corps. Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year. Obama will encourage retiring Americans to serve by improving programs available for individuals over age 55, while at the same time promoting youth programs such as Youth Build and Head Start.
Can we say oxymoron. Which is it? Is it a choice or requirement? 
"When you choose to serve -- whether it's your nation, your community or simply your neighborhood -- you are connected to that fundamental American ideal that we want life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness not just for ourselves, but for all Americans.
That's why it's called the American dream." 
Based on that..... it is a major misinterpretation of the constitution.
The pilgrims fled that socialist type of environment in the 1600,s to be free to worship as they saw fit.
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 11/10/2008 11:57:15 AM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: A Change Is Gonna Come - 11/10/2008 11:56:11 AM
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radiorobert
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Most volunteerism today, is a result of the Altruistic mentality of modern and post-modern thought.
In the past, volunteerism was done at the behest of the individual and their conviction to their fellow man and God. In other words, their sense of what constituted a need in a given situation. You didn't see alot of community based volunteerism.
Most people today, myself included, see community volunterism as a pie-in-the-sky socialist do-gooder activitiy that we feel we SHOULD do for our neighbors, because it helps their need or suffering so that we don't have to deal with the social consequences. What I like to strive for, is a heart within myself that sees need and volunteers without being encouraged to or being given an incentive to.
Example, someone in dire straits who comes to your door and being led by the Lord to help them. An accident where someone needs help, as a church body going to someone's home who needs help moving, fixing something, etc.
This is why I feel like any public entity that encourages volunteerism, does so to try to instill an altruistic social ideal in someones mind, rather than letting them develop their character on their own and thru God. This is not how humanity has traditionally worked in free socities. Maybe Russia and China, but not America.
In other words, telling someone "You should want to volunteer"....only furthers a sense of guilt about having what someone else doesn't, or expericing your own situation as opposed to someone else's and having to feel guilty if you don't help someone in spite of your own responsibilities.
Don't know if that makes sense...but in a nutshell, I am bothered by volunteer incentives, b/c I feel it pressures people into feeling 'obligated' toward society rather than fostering a genuine desire.
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RE: A Change Is Gonna Come - 11/10/2008 12:04:19 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10376
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
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quote:
How is having kids do some community service, THAT THEY GET TO CHOOSE, a bad thing. It's a law in Missouri and frankly this is the first place I've ever posted where anyone has ever said they think community service by kids is somehow "wrong". What is so awful about this? Our kids get to choose what they do and let's get real - 20 hours for middle school kids and 50 for HS kids is a drop in the bucket. It's good for them. I'm not arguing that community service for young people is bad. What's bad is that making it a requirement for passing on to the next level of education or graduation flies in the face of the tenant of FREE public education being a right for citizens.
If you can't see that then I suppose that's why the state school system is able to get away with it.
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: A Change Is Gonna Come - 11/10/2008 12:07:52 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10376
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
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quote:
What? We aren't PAYING anything for the community service. What is so awful about this? What makes it not free? Does free to you mean no strings attached? What planet are you living on -- nothing is free by that definition. LOL, you guys are just really amusing. You want your cake and eat it to. My taxes pay for the educations that the government schools supply here in my community. My children should have that education without any other strings attached.
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: A Change Is Gonna Come - 11/10/2008 12:13:22 PM
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JustJeannie
Posts: 5125
Joined: 6/14/2007
From: the state of confusion
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stamper_ben
quote:
What? We aren't PAYING anything for the community service. What is so awful about this? What makes it not free? Does free to you mean no strings attached? What planet are you living on -- nothing is free by that definition. LOL, you guys are just really amusing. You want your cake and eat it to. My taxes pay for the educations that the government schools supply here in my community. My children should have that education without any other strings attached.
Very good, Ben.
And my opinion of it being sad was where the students have to PICK from CERTAIN options. If my child wants to help the elderly couple next door mow, rake, trim hedges, etc., then why SHOULDN'T that count as community service. According to those standards, my child would have to do twice as much to help people she cares about AND graduate. THAT is what is truly sad in my opinion. Not to mention the fact that my child takes all advanced courses and has homework every night, even on weekends, instead of "just sliding by". I think THAT should count for something as well. She may not be "out in the community" but she IS working HARD!!
_____________________________
Jeannie
Mah brain...it hurts...
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RE: A Change Is Gonna Come - 11/10/2008 3:36:06 PM
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steph381
Posts: 141
Joined: 10/16/2008
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Sorry everybody, I'm off topic. LG maybe we can finish this conversation in another thread. I didn't mean to hijack the thread!
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RE: A Change Is Gonna Come - 11/10/2008 8:48:55 PM
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relady
Posts: 1219
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
If you can't see that then I suppose that's why the state school system is able to get away with it. What I DON'T understand is why you and others can't seem to make a cogent point without an insinuated personal insult. I see what you are saying clearly and I think it's horsey manure.
I only entered the discussion because some people seemed to think that community service is somehow "bad" or "socialist", LOL. Christians, who should WANT to teach their kids to help, don't want to because it's the school system requiring it. I got news for ya....learning to give is learning to give regardless of where it comes from.
I also just wanted to let every one know that it really isn't anything new.
Typical Republican, rightwing answer....I wanna do it my way with no accountability to anyone but God. Wrap in in religion so no one can disagree with you without somehow being out of God's will.
It's just plain sad.
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RE: A Change Is Gonna Come - 11/10/2008 9:31:46 PM
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StephK
Posts: 2236
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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Volunteering isn't the issue. The issue was when I first read his change.gov site there wasn't a choice to serve and there were no financial/school credit benefits in return. That was what I had an issue with.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: A Change Is Gonna Come - 11/10/2008 9:33:08 PM
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leonfigg3
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Joined: 5/7/2007
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relady,
Have you ever considered that one of the main problems with public education in this country is that there are too many people in charge of it, running it, and guiding it-directly and indirectly-exists mainly as a laboratory for social engineering?
The cost of education is going through the roof, while the education level of most children in this countrry keeps going down because our children are being taught just about everything except what they are being taught.
Yes, it is ok for schools to inform students of opportunities to volunteer, and perform community service. It may also be good to allow students to gain some recognition, or credit for graduation through community service. IMO requiring it in any way, or requiring so me sort of accountability, is not the responsibility of the education system.
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and my wife’s “daughter” who is white… Her boyfriend is Hispanic 
“and he works there”…. 