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Going Green, good idea? - 10/24/2008 11:50:39 AM
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_jjp_
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In the paper today there is a story about the plight of the orangutan in Indonesia due to the hunger for alternative fuels.
quote:
In the rush to feed the world's growing appetite for climate-friendly fuel and cooking oil, the Bornean orangutan could get plowed under.
Corn prices rise due to it's use as fuel, forests are mowed down to meet the demand for palm oil as fuel, strip mines are dug for raw materials to produce hybrid batteries, and the answer to our power hungry lights puts more mercury in the position to end up in landfills, waterways, and soil. Sounds ecologically sound to me.
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/24/2008 11:57:05 AM
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eaglesfeather
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All good points indeed. This is a normal human trend I think. Trying to fix one thing while destroying many others. I see it in our towns, on the job, in the government, in religion, and yes; in the environment.
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/24/2008 12:46:35 PM
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backrowbaptist
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Hey, knock it off, jjp! Don't spoil the high that the adherent's to the faith of the feel-good-church-of-the-enviro-mental-cases get from their crusade to save the planet by pointing out the consequences of their actions! HERETIC!!
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Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/24/2008 2:30:59 PM
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Rockwall
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From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
Corn prices rise due to it's use as fuel, forests are mowed down to meet the demand for palm oil as fuel, strip mines are dug for raw materials to produce hybrid batteries, and the answer to our power hungry lights puts more mercury in the position to end up in landfills, waterways, and soil. Sounds ecologically sound to me.
We have more oil and natural resources than Saudi Arabia and our eco-friendly leaders don't want us to use it because of the global warming dogma. They live in multi-million dollar homes and can afford $4 a gallon gasoline yet they force us peasants to pay the premium to save the earth.
_____________________________
Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/24/2008 8:13:20 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2022
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rockwall
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
Corn prices rise due to it's use as fuel, forests are mowed down to meet the demand for palm oil as fuel, strip mines are dug for raw materials to produce hybrid batteries, and the answer to our power hungry lights puts more mercury in the position to end up in landfills, waterways, and soil. Sounds ecologically sound to me.
We have more oil and natural resources than Saudi Arabia
Where do we have more oil than Saudi Arabia? In shale oil that's notoriously difficult and expense to get at and energy-intensive to process? The oil shale that nobody's even sure will be a viable option for several more years yet?
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/24/2008 9:05:57 PM
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colliefan
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We have oil in ANWAR that can be drilled for for in an environmentally sound manner. ANWAR is the size of SC and the proposed drill site is the size of Reagan National Airport!
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/24/2008 10:33:42 PM
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OneJohn410
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Hearing about a possible auto industry shutdown next year (I have no idea how realistic that is) and work on developing cars that run on alternate fuel sources is one thing. Reading a half-page news ad that it will not matter what is done because it won't be being done fast enough to meet the demands of increased population in the USA is what gets me green. Pay no taxes, work illegally- filling jobs better meant for US citizens. No, I don't hate these people. I just wonder what happened to the term law-abiding citizen and the devices and laws put into place to prevent such. There'll be more energy demand than new energy supplied no matter what, until inflow is brought under control.
_____________________________
For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. -Romans 15:4 (NIV)
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/25/2008 8:13:53 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
Where do we have more oil than Saudi Arabia? In shale oil that's notoriously difficult and expense to get at and energy-intensive to process? The oil shale that nobody's even sure will be a viable option for several more years yet?
The Off shore of the East coast, the West coast, the Florida straights (where China is drilling now within sight of the USA), and Anwar (plus many other restricted areas).
The closer in areas (50 miles offshore) can be producing and delivering oil in less than 24 months.
The Shale oil is just a bonus.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/25/2008 9:56:08 AM
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_jjp_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
Where do we have more oil than Saudi Arabia? In shale oil that's notoriously difficult and expense to get at and energy-intensive to process?
With the new in-situ methods of extraction the oil shale isn't terribly difficult to get at and once extracted is refined like any other oil. The last hurdle to overcome in the in-situ extraction is to work out which equipment gives the most efficient energy transfer to maximize the profits.
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/25/2008 10:53:57 AM
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cog41
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quote:
The last hurdle to overcome in the in-situ extraction is to work out which equipment gives the most efficient energy transfer to maximize the profits.
And the hurdle of environmental extremist.
_____________________________
Psalm 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: "May they prosper who love you."
Hook'em Horns! Roll Tide!
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/25/2008 11:16:34 AM
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iluvatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
Where do we have more oil than Saudi Arabia? In shale oil that's notoriously difficult and expense to get at and energy-intensive to process?
With the new in-situ methods of extraction the oil shale isn't terribly difficult to get at and once extracted is refined like any other oil. The last hurdle to overcome in the in-situ extraction is to work out which equipment gives the most efficient energy transfer to maximize the profits.
It's still unproven and it requires a TON of energy - something like 1/3-1/2 of the total energy content of the oil that's produced.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
Where do we have more oil than Saudi Arabia? In shale oil that's notoriously difficult and expense to get at and energy-intensive to process? The oil shale that nobody's even sure will be a viable option for several more years yet?
The Off shore of the East coast, the West coast, the Florida straights (where China is drilling now within sight of the USA), and Anwar (plus many other restricted areas).
More than Saudi Arabia? Do you have any sources for that?
And no, China is not drilling in the Gulf of Mexico: http://www.adn.com/oil/story/434045.html
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/25/2008 12:52:36 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
It's still unproven and it requires a TON of energy - something like 1/3-1/2 of the total energy content of the oil that's produced.
And why did the environmentalist wackos push corn-based ethanol knowing what you cited is true of that product? They KNEW is required more energy to procude a gallon of that product that the gallon itself would produce. Yet no one had the gonads to stand up to both the corn and green lobbies.
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/25/2008 12:59:31 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2022
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
It's still unproven and it requires a TON of energy - something like 1/3-1/2 of the total energy content of the oil that's produced.
And why did the environmentalist wackos push corn-based ethanol knowing what you cited is true of that product? They KNEW is required more energy to procude a gallon of that product that the gallon itself would produce. Yet no one had the gonads to stand up to both the corn and green lobbies.
I'm not defending that either.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/25/2008 1:11:08 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
I'm not defending that either.
-Dan.
Good. I am just angry this hasn't been a major issue in the media. I am all for seeing that we are good stewards of our environment. But there are cost/benefits issues to everything. What really angers me is that move to corn-based ethanol has had such a drastic impact on our ecomony. And not only that, it takes food away from a great deal of the world's poor.
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/25/2008 1:22:23 PM
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huangshan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
It's still unproven and it requires a TON of energy - something like 1/3-1/2 of the total energy content of the oil that's produced.
And why did the environmentalist wackos push corn-based ethanol knowing what you cited is true of that product? They KNEW is required more energy to procude a gallon of that product that the gallon itself would produce. Yet no one had the gonads to stand up to both the corn and green lobbies.
I think that's almost exclusively the farm lobby, which I have nothing but antipathy for. I don't think there are many environmentalists who are for it, excluding politicians (who do so for the same reason they support fairy dust solutions like clean coal- they gotta pander).
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/25/2008 1:24:37 PM
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iluvatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
I'm not defending that either.
-Dan.
Good. I am just angry this hasn't been a major issue in the media. I am all for seeing that we are good stewards of our environment. But there are cost/benefits issues to everything. What really angers me is that move to corn-based ethanol has had such a drastic impact on our ecomony. And not only that, it takes food away from a great deal of the world's poor.
Was the move to corn ethanol based more on efforts by the farm lobby or by the green lobby?
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/25/2008 1:27:37 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
Was the move to corn ethanol based more on efforts by the farm lobby or by the green lobby?
I believe both are equally guilty with the media being a willing acomplice.
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/26/2008 12:13:46 PM
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litfire2000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
I think that's almost exclusively the farm lobby, which I have nothing but antipathy for. I don't think there are many environmentalists who are for it, excluding politicians (who do so for the same reason they support fairy dust solutions like clean coal- they gotta pander).
I believe you are right that it was mostly the farm lobby. Are you familiar with the term "London fog"?...London, England due to location and climate can be quite foggy. However, what the term London fog referred to was actually smog. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, most people in London used coal for heating as well as for industrial applications. This was "dirty coal", coal that produced harsh emissions into the air. This shrouded the city in a notorious fog (smog). Since curtailing the burning of coal this fog has greatly dissipated. Coal is abundant in the United States. If a way can be found to burn coal efficiently without harmful emissions, I say we should go for it.
_____________________________
Ps. 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/27/2008 9:14:57 AM
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_jjp_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
Where do we have more oil than Saudi Arabia? In shale oil that's notoriously difficult and expense to get at and energy-intensive to process?
With the new in-situ methods of extraction the oil shale isn't terribly difficult to get at and once extracted is refined like any other oil. The last hurdle to overcome in the in-situ extraction is to work out which equipment gives the most efficient energy transfer to maximize the profits.
It's still unproven and it requires a TON of energy - something like 1/3-1/2 of the total energy content of the oil that's produced.
It is actually not unproven, it is working as we speak (although in a not full production scale)and even at 1/3-1/2 the energy of what you get it is a far cry better than ehanol.
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/27/2008 10:02:13 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2022
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
It is actually not unproven, it is working as we speak (although in a not full production scale)and even at 1/3-1/2 the energy of what you get it is a far cry better than ehanol.
It's promising, but it's still in the testing phase.
This is from only a year ago: http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/30/magazines/fortune/Oil_from_stone.fortune/index.htm
Shell's freezewall test still ongoing.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/27/2008 12:50:01 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 631
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
It is actually not unproven, it is working as we speak (although in a not full production scale)and even at 1/3-1/2 the energy of what you get it is a far cry better than ehanol.
It's promising, but it's still in the testing phase.
This is from only a year ago: http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/30/magazines/fortune/Oil_from_stone.fortune/index.htm
Shell's freezewall test still ongoing.
-Dan.
Until just recently i worked with one of the engineers that is now on the R&D team that is answering the question which method yields the highest energy transfer and that is the last hurdle to jump, any one of the methods is profitable even at the prices we currently see they aim to maximize that.
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/30/2008 6:11:51 AM
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47.samuel
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Getting off oil is not only the environmrentally correct thing to do - it stops the outflow of dollars to the Middle East and could create the foundation for a whole new generation of alternative energy technologies.
This is America's big chance to create millions of skilled jobs - something the current administration should have stated years ago.
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/30/2008 6:20:53 AM
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_jjp_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 47.samuel
Getting off oil is not only the environmrentally correct thing to do - it stops the outflow of dollars to the Middle East and could create the foundation for a whole new generation of alternative energy technologies.
This is America's big chance to create millions of skilled jobs - something the current administration should have stated years ago.
But getting off of oil only to cause other problems is not a fix it is a transfer to issues that could be even greater problems. How do you propose that we handle transportation? Ethanol and biodiesel are bad ideas as they use food and require that we use much more land than oil does and currently their energy return vs. investment isn't all that spectacular. There is fuel cells but that isn't ready for mass use just yet and electric requires batteries which require raw materials, ever seen the pictures of the nickel mine that was a wasteland to supply the prius it's battery packs?
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/30/2008 11:39:32 PM
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backrowbaptist
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 47.samuel
Getting off oil is not only the environmrentally correct thing to do - it stops the outflow of dollars to the Middle East and could create the foundation for a whole new generation of alternative energy technologies.
This is America's big chance to create millions of skilled jobs - something the current administration should have stated years ago.
And how do you propose we do that? We snap our fingers and suddenly all these new technologies are developed and efficient enough to replace oil? It will take decades to "get off oil", at best. The best way to stem the outflow of dollars to the Middle East is for us to develop our own oil sources. And enough with the knee-jerk blaming of the "current administration." It's lazy liberal rhetoric.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Going Green, good idea? - 10/31/2008 6:11:28 PM
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demolay
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One thing I don't understand about why "getting off oil" or other fossil fuels is 'the environmentally correct thing to do".
Where did all that carbon in fossil fuels come from? Wasn't it extracted from the atmosphere by plants whenever they lived? So if it was okay in the atmoshpere then, why is it "bad" now? From what I understand about the carbon cycle, until man started burning fossil fuels there weren't any big sources of "new carbon" in the carbon cycle of life.
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