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RE: Can There Be Modern Day Apostles? - 10/24/2008 12:08:41 AM
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livingwaterbottle
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Thanks so much for your posts and suggestions. The inventory I took separated the gift of missionary from apostle. Apostle is noted in the inventory as one who plants, oversees and leads multiple pastors and congregations. I have gone a little deeper in my study and discovered a few more things. There were apostles in the Bible other than the twelve and Paul. Barnabas is listed as being an apostle (Acts 14:14) Barnabas was from Cyprus and his witnessing the resurrected Christ isn't noted in the scripture. Also, Andronicus and Junias are listed as "outstanding among the apostles" (NIV, NASB, KJB with and ESV Variant) However, it doesn't mean that Barnabas, Andronicus or Junias weren't in the area of Jerusalem when Christ appeared to more than 500 people. They all were Jewish. Good Jews would have been in Jerusalem for the Passover. So, it's possible, (Although it isn't listed in the scripture) that Barnabas, Andronicus and Junias witnessed the resurrected Christ. It is definite to me that apostles of the Gospels (the twelve) and eventually Paul have a special designation in that they were 1st hand witnesses to the resurrection. However, we cannot take the qualifications of an apostle from Acts 1:21-22 because it would disqualify Paul. (He didn't "accompany" the twelve while they were with Jesus) He only witnessed the resurrected Christ. Just wanted to share these things, let me know what you think.
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RE: Can There Be Modern Day Apostles? - 10/24/2008 8:00:27 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: misty35
quote:
ORIGINAL: themoodyexperience
quote:
ORIGINAL: PCRB
i think one can have an 'apostolic' anointing in ministry without being labeled by rights an apostle.
And I think that if there are apostles today, they will never be called apostles, by themselves or anyone. They would be the unsung servants of the church. It is certainly not the person who calls himself 'Apostle So-and-So' for self-importance or merchandising purposes.
I agree. Is an apostle not a messenger, how can we not have messengers today?
Misty, you are absolutely correct in the general sense that an apostle is one that is sent by another as their representative. And in the general sense, church planters and missionaries could be said to be doing the work of an apostle (lower case "a"). But the office of Apostle was a very limited and well defined group that lived during the time of Jesus. There are a number of hucksters and charlatans that claim the office of Apostle for themselves and every one of them show themselves as false, greedy wolves among the sheep.
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RE: Can There Be Modern Day Apostles? - 10/24/2008 8:07:47 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: misty35
Thanks JimboFletch...I was beginning to think there for a minute, that you were totally against me, in everything I post.
Misty, let me assure you that I am not against you. I'm only against bad theology/doctrine, wherever I encounter it, when it clearly goes against God's written word. On matters of eternal consequence, our first priority should be in finding and receiving God's perspective, not just our preferences and sentiments. In the final analysis, it is what He says that matters, not what our reasoning determines things should be. I know that's not a popular position but it's the only one that counts and, in the long term, is any value for us.
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RE: Can There Be Modern Day Apostles? - 10/24/2008 8:20:27 AM
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earthless
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Amen, Jimbo!
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RE: Can There Be Modern Day Apostles? - 10/24/2008 9:52:55 AM
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misty35
Posts: 614
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From: Arkansas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: misty35
Thanks JimboFletch...I was beginning to think there for a minute, that you were totally against me, in everything I post.
Misty, let me assure you that I am not against you. I'm only against bad theology/doctrine, wherever I encounter it, when it clearly goes against God's written word. On matters of eternal consequence, our first priority should be in finding and receiving God's perspective, not just our preferences and sentiments. In the final analysis, it is what He says that matters, not what our reasoning determines things should be. I know that's not a popular position but it's the only one that counts and, in the long term, is any value for us.
Yes, I absolutely agree, thank you.
_____________________________
"For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." 2 Timothy 1:7 
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RE: Can There Be Modern Day Apostles? - 10/24/2008 9:55:03 AM
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misty35
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: misty35
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: misty35
He can do whatever He wants.
No. No, God cannot.
There are things God cannot do and will not do. And one of them is to contradict Himself, His Word.
Like it has been duly noted - your train of thought not only contradicts Scripture and God Himself, it is the reason we have so much heresy, false teachers, false prophets, counterfeit revivals, etc.. taking root in our church circles.
And I never said that He would contradict Himself, go and read a few post back, and you'll see that I NEVER said that He would contadict Himself......that came from you :)
You came off as saying He can do anything He wants, which is a false statement. So if that is not what you meant, then glad that has been clarified.
Back to the theme - there is no one alive today whose writings are on par with Scripture.
Well regardless of what you say or think, thats you, not me, but Jimbo quiet clearly summed it all up, in a way thats understandable and not argumentative.
_____________________________
"For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." 2 Timothy 1:7
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RE: Can There Be Modern Day Apostles? - 10/24/2008 11:00:38 AM
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misty35
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: misty35
...but Jimbo quiet clearly summed it all up, in a way thats understandable and not argumentative.
Everybody take note - I have moments of clarity and politeness.
Who knows, maybe it was that fresh cup of coffee that preceeded my post this morning.
Lol....Will you please make more fresh coffee? No, that was only a joke Jimbo, Im still fairly new to the forums, still meeting people and getting to know them. I'll have to admit, we may not always agree with one another here, but with the questions and different responses, it will make a person go to the Bible for the answer, and I think thats great.
_____________________________
"For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." 2 Timothy 1:7
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RE: Can There Be Modern Day Apostles? - 10/24/2008 11:43:22 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
there is no one alive today whose writings are on par with Scripture. Absolutely.
However, it does not take an apostle to write scripture: John Mark (Barnabas' nephew), Luke, and James the Just all wrote NT scripture and none of them were ever called Apostles. Barnabas, Simon Zealotes, Bartholemew, Thomas, Andrew, et al all WERE apostles and never wrote scripture.
And while the requirement of being an eye witness was put forth to replace Judas, there is no indication of that being an overall requirement, or that it was from the Lord even in that specific case. It was just something that must have made sense to the 11. Indeed, Paul (clearly an apostle) did not fit those requirements.
Act 1:21 "Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us--
Certainly Paul was not in their company until well after the resurrection.
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RE: Can There Be Modern Day Apostles? - 10/24/2008 11:56:07 AM
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JimboFletch
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Paul was called an apostle in the general sense. Nowhere is he referred to as an Apostle like the 12 and, except for Acts 14:14 (general sense), only Paul refers to himself as an apostle in scripture.
Just the change in usage between Acts 14:14 and Acts 15 shows a difference between his being an apostle and those considered holding the office of Apostle:
Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
-Acts 14:14
When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
-Acts 15:2
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RE: Can There Be Modern Day Apostles? - 10/24/2008 11:58:43 AM
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DaveW
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The greek word is the same. No difference in the 2 passages.
Where do you get "general sense?"
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
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RE: Can There Be Modern Day Apostles? - 10/24/2008 12:06:57 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
The greek word is the same. No difference in the 2 passages.
Where do you get "general sense?"
Did you note the difference in usage? "The apostles, Barnabas and Paul..." were sent "unto the apostles and elders" in Jerusalem to settle an important matter. If those two were in the same postion, why did they need others to confirm their judgment?
This is similar, IMO, to the use of the word "disciple." It sometimes refers to the distinct group of 12 chosen by Jesus and sometimes to any group of believers. Most have no trouble distinguishing between what is meant by THE disciples and any other group of disciples.
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RE: Can There Be Modern Day Apostles? - 10/24/2008 12:08:52 PM
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GodsMusic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Absolutely.
And while the requirement of being an eye witness was put forth to replace Judas, there is no indication of that being an overall requirement, or that it was from the Lord even in that specific case.
Certainly Paul was not in their company until well after the resurrection.
But Paul did see the Lord with his own eyes.
1COR 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
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RE: Can There Be Modern Day Apostles? - 10/24/2008 12:25:37 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4164
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quote:
Did you note the difference in usage? "The apostles, Barnabas and Paul..." were sent "unto the apostles and elders" in Jerusalem to settle an important matter. If those two were in the same postion, why did they need others to confirm their judgment? In the disciples/apostles there was a "rank."
There were the 12. Then there were the 3 (Peter James and John), and there was the one who rested on HIS chest: John.
That Paul submitted to the authority of the apostles in Jerusalem is not indicative of inferior position, but is indicative of his humility. In Galations he speaks of calling Peter down for his duplicity. That Peter accepted his correction and later called Paul's letters "scripture" indicated the respect and authority Paul carried.quote:
But Paul did see the Lord with his own eyes. Whether in a vision or with his physical eyes we do not know. He DID NOT fulfil the requirement of being with them during Jesus' earthly ministry.
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: Can There Be Modern Day Apostles? - 10/24/2008 12:43:36 PM
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GodsMusic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Whether in a vision or with his physical eyes we do not know. He DID NOT fulfil the requirement of being with them during Jesus' earthly ministry.
It was not a vision. It knock him to the ground and blinded him.
Just saying.
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RE: Can There Be Modern Day Apostles? - 10/24/2008 12:56:07 PM
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JimboFletch
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Paul, IMO, considered himself in a special and limited position of apostle to the gentiles and he distinguished himself from the 12.
In Galatians 1, he tells us that he was taught privately by Jesus for the space of 3 years and his doctrines was no different than the 12.
For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
For you have heard of my former manner of life in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it; and I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my countrymen, being more extremely zealous for my ancestral traditions.
But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus. Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days. But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother.
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RE: Can There Be Modern Day Apostles? - 10/24/2008 12:57:31 PM
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PCRB
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: PCRB
i think one can have an 'apostolic' anointing in ministry without being labeled by rights an apostle.
Well, that would be a false understanding of New Testament anointing, IMO.
False understanding or misunderstanding? 
perhaps the term anointing was a bad choice of wording.
i believe that a person can operate in an 'apostolic' (-ic: bearing resemblance, in type or action) form of ministry without fulfilling the full office of a New testament Apostle.
its the Big A / little a thing.
in the same way a person can move in the giftings of the prophetic without being labeled a 'Prophet'
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RE: Can There Be Modern Day Apostles? - 10/24/2008 6:07:12 PM
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misty35
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Im sure there where will be a lot of negative comments on what Im about to ask, but I have too. What about Perry Stone, I believe he calls himself a Prophetic Preacher. He always says, that people dont have to believe him, but he has to deliver the message. Ive heard him speak, and alot of what he has to say certainly sounds real, and he backs up everything with Scripture.
Im asking, because some say, we cant have Apostles today, so does that mean we cant have prophecy either?
_____________________________
"For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." 2 Timothy 1:7
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RE: Can There Be Modern Day Apostles? - 10/24/2008 6:44:01 PM
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GodsMusic
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Misty, I'm a pentecostal pastor of a small church in Arkansas. You can accept that for what it is. It's true.
But I would believe no one that proclaimed themselves an Apostle or even a Prophet.
In one sense a preacher could be considered a prophet, but in a very narrow sense. Revelation 19:10 says that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
But self-proclaimed Prophets and Apostles are just that. Self-proclaimed. For what reason they make this claim is curious as well.
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RE: Can There Be Modern Day Apostles? - 10/24/2008 6:44:51 PM
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themoodyexperience
Posts: 1144
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Tuscumbia, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: misty35
Im sure there where will be a lot of negative comments on what Im about to ask, but I have too. What about Perry Stone, I believe he calls himself a Prophetic Preacher. He always says, that people dont have to believe him, but he has to deliver the message. Ive heard him speak, and alot of what he has to say certainly sounds real, and he backs up everything with Scripture.
Im asking, because some say, we cant have Apostles today, so does that mean we cant have prophecy either?
Again, let me reiterate that if he has to call himself a prophetic preacher, he more than likely isn't one. If you genuinely have that gift, then people will be drawn to you, you don't need to put a neon sign around your neck. Also, I can call myself president of the Bozo the Clown fan club and it doesn't make it true.
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RE: Can There Be Modern Day Apostles? - 10/24/2008 6:52:06 PM
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misty35
Posts: 614
Joined: 9/22/2008
From: Arkansas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: themoodyexperience
quote:
ORIGINAL: misty35
Im sure there where will be a lot of negative comments on what Im about to ask, but I have too. What about Perry Stone, I believe he calls himself a Prophetic Preacher. He always says, that people dont have to believe him, but he has to deliver the message. Ive heard him speak, and alot of what he has to say certainly sounds real, and he backs up everything with Scripture.
Im asking, because some say, we cant have Apostles today, so does that mean we cant have prophecy either?
Again, let me reiterate that if he has to call himself a prophetic preacher, he more than likely isn't one. If you genuinely have that gift, then people will be drawn to you, you don't need to put a neon sign around your neck. Also, I can call myself president of the Bozo the Clown fan club and it doesn't make it true.
Well I understand what your saying, but in all honesty, I really dont think he is trying to take away from God, know what I mean. Im not sure how to word this. Its not like he is trying to put the spotlight on himself, hes just saying that he has been given these messages from the Holy Spirit, and he has to deliver them. Did I word that right? Im not saying that he is right or wrong, but I do believe that the Holy Spirit speaks through people.
_____________________________
"For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." 2 Timothy 1:7
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RE: Can There Be Modern Day Apostles? - 10/24/2008 8:08:29 PM
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GodsMusic
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To the OP, I say the answer is really an obvious no, but for those that say otherwise what would be the purpose and duties of an Apostle today now that the Church is already established?
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