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RE: Bullfighting - 10/24/2008 12:36:33 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
I consider bullfighting, dog fighting, and other blood sports- including boxing- to be gross and inhumane, and at odds with God's intention for how His creatures are to be treated.
I wonder if God was being inhumane when He wrestled with Jacob and separated his thigh from it's socket?
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/24/2008 1:06:57 AM
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Child4Jesus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I consider bullfighting, dog fighting, and other blood sports- including boxing- to be gross and inhumane, and at odds with God's intention for how His creatures are to be treated.
I wonder if God was being inhumane when He wrestled with Jacob and separated his thigh from it's socket?
It's funny I was just about to say that.
1 Chronicles 11:22-23 (New King James Version)
22 Benaiah was the son of Jehoiada, the son of a valiant man from Kabzeel, who had done many deeds. He had killed two lion-like heroes of Moab. He also had gone down and killed a lion in the midst of a pit on a snowy day. 23 And he killed an Egyptian, a man of great height, five cubits tall. In the Egyptian’s hand there was a spear like a weaver’s beam; and he went down to him with a staff, wrested the spear out of the Egyptian’s hand, and killed him with his own spear.
Benaiah is real inhumane isn't he. Killed to heroes for Moab, went into a pit after a lion and killed it, and took a 7 foot six inch tall mans speak from him and killed him with it. Nice guy.
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In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/24/2008 1:25:55 AM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I didn't realize until recently that bullfighting exists in Japan.... but it does. I don't mind it so much as long as there are no lances and swords. Really... if one is so valiant and courageous, why the need for banderillos anyway? Wouldn't it be more courageous to face the unmaimed bull? I guess that's just me. Then afterwards the bull can just go off somewhere, to be killed humanely for food or something else.
Bulls are armed with big pointy horns, which they use quite effectively. Doing so with out a pointy instrument in one's hands would truly be inhumane, to the Matador.
But he or she chose to fight a bull. If they wanted to fight something weaker, perhaps they should have chosen a weaker animal or chosen a better way to weaken those muscles that they stick barbs into. I was talking about the picadores and banderillas though, not the matador. The matador doesn't use the sword for self-defense...I don't think any of them use any of the objects for self-defense...just stabbing either to kill, weaken or sever something as part of the custom.
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/24/2008 1:29:00 AM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
People forget that animals were created for man. We are to care for them yes. But lets not pretend they are equal with humans. They are our food, pets, load bearers, etc. You better believe if a dog was trying to kill me I will shoot it dead. However I'm not going to tie up a dog just to torture it. That is completely wrong. I also don't believe that people should have dog fights, Rooster Fights, or any sort of fights pitting animals against each other. Bullfighting is different for the reasons Jhud stated...
Which reasons?
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/24/2008 1:31:47 AM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
I consider bullfighting, dog fighting, and other blood sports- including boxing- to be gross and inhumane, and at odds with God's intention for how His creatures are to be treated.
I agree. :)
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/24/2008 2:58:41 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
But he or she chose to fight a bull. If they wanted to fight something weaker, perhaps they should have chosen a weaker animal or chosen a better way to weaken those muscles that they stick barbs into. I was talking about the picadores and banderillas though, not the matador. The matador doesn't use the sword for self-defense...I don't think any of them use any of the objects for self-defense...just stabbing either to kill, weaken or sever something as part of the custom.
That would be the point (NPI); they aren't fighting something weaker because that would be unfair; getting in the ring with a bunny or kitty would be cruel - getting in there face to face with a bull isn't. Most often the bull dies, but not always, sometimes the Matador doesn't live. And there are versions of the fight where the bull isn't really harmed.
But unlike pointing a gun at an animal and blowing it away for whatever reason, the Matador gives the bull a fighting chance, and why people think one is perfectly acceptable and the other is cruel is beyond me.
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/24/2008 2:38:07 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PaleHawkWoman
I consider bullfighting, dog fighting, and other blood sports- including boxing- to be gross and inhumane, and at odds with God's intention for how His creatures are to be treated.
Thank you.
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/24/2008 3:59:07 PM
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mrtigger
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What happens to the bull if it wins the fight? Is it released?
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/24/2008 4:16:35 PM
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solo_soprano22
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Tigger, I've never lived in Espana. I know several people who have lived there, studied there, are natives, etc. I'm told that no matter what, the bull is killed (in Espana). It may be different, but no one has told me otherwise. I do think they have a lot of regulations though, and if one could find those, we'd know for sure. I know no one who has told me or seen that the bull won and was let go, and if asked, they'll tell you the bull still dies even if it wins... plus the injuries from the banderillas maim it so that it probably always needs to be put down.
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/24/2008 4:21:15 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
What happens to the bull if it wins the fight? Is it released?
Acordingto Nationmaster, in Spanish bullfights:
Very occasionally, a bull will be allowed to survive a fight as an indulgence or indulto granted in recognition of an exceptional performance. Such bulls are generally retired from competition, as their experience in the ring makes them extremely dangerous opponents.
From SpainFocus:
Very rarely , a bull will be allowed to survive a fight as an indulgence granted in recognition of an exceptional performance. The spectators will demand an indulto from the presidente, by waving handkerchiefs, before the estocada. The matador will stop and look at the presidente. If he stands still, he will resume his action and kill the bull. But if he has an orange handkerchief hung on his balcony, the matador will imitate the estocada with a banderilla(flag) or with the palm of his hand and the bull will be "freed". Such bulls are generally retired from competition and raised as studs, as their experience in the ring makes them extremely dangerous opponents. A fighting bull is never used in the ring twice, because they learn from experience, and the entire strategy of the matador is based on the assumption that the bull has not learned from previous experience.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/24/2008 4:53:30 PM
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solo_soprano22
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This is overdramatized, but it speaks of some of the torturing-- much of the same that I've seen. (And there are a ton of bullfights on the web; I know I found a few on youtube when I was searching for a particular matador on there.) The horses they use have things done to them as well, but not to the same extent.
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/24/2008 5:40:35 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
This is overdramatized, but it speaks of some of the torturing-- much of the same that I've seen. (And there are a ton of bullfights on the web; I know I found a few on youtube when I was searching for a particular matador on there.) The horses they use have things done to them as well, but not to the same extent.
YEs it is overdramatized; it's written by SHARK (SHowing Animals Respect and Kindness) an organization that sees even deer culls as torture.
If anyone has ever delivered cattle to market, one knows that the realtively short and quick death of a bull in a bullfight is a mercy; but most people eat their burgers everyday completely indifferent to what it takes to get that food to their plate.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/25/2008 12:10:43 AM
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solarflare
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I consider bullfighting, dog fighting, and other blood sports- including boxing- to be gross and inhumane, and at odds with God's intention for how His creatures are to be treated.
I wonder if God was being inhumane when He wrestled with Jacob and separated his thigh from it's socket?
Jacob was blessed after that match. Can't say the same for the tortured bull............
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/25/2008 1:37:00 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
Jacob was blessed after that match. Can't say the same for the tortured bull............
I have always considered a good steak to be a blessing.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/25/2008 8:24:16 AM
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abraxas
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quote:
If anyone has ever delivered cattle to market, one knows that the realtively short and quick death of a bull in a bullfight is a mercy; but most people eat their burgers everyday completely indifferent to what it takes to get that food to their plate.
That is a fair comment. Hopefully people will start to connect the dots!
Bullfighting is quite a metaphor for life from a Christian perspective.
Bulls don't choose to go into the ring, we didn't choose to be born;
The odds are greatly against the bull surviving, but in theory any bull could gore the matador and win a "pardon"; the odds are against a human born into the world becoming a Christian, but in theory any person could (okay that might not be accurate for all times and places);
The matador has helpers who weaken the bull with spears and barbs; the devil has his angels help bruise our heels;
Surrounding the bullring is a mass of cheering people; Earth is no doubt a big spectacle to some superior alien race that has us on their pay-per-view.
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/25/2008 10:19:01 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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i went to a bullfight in mexico some years ago.. I WAS SICKENED.
i felt sorry for the bull.
The way the matador is teasing the bull, sticking him with those spears, and the poor bull looked like it was in pain and bleeding, and then this co.cky matador prancing around like he was Mr Special, it just was so sad that i cried afterward. I felt sorry for the bull and wish the bull would have won.
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/25/2008 10:54:01 AM
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1love1God1way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
I felt sorry for the bull and wish the bull would have won.
You wouldn't have felt bad had the matador died instead?
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/25/2008 1:28:27 PM
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solo_soprano22
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For the bull to win, the matadores don't have to die. I don't think they have to be gored either.
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/25/2008 8:28:24 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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All i can say is what i felt at the time.. I felt sorry for the bull.. and the matators looked like they bullied the bull into a corner. Poor thing. he could not get away. the matador is supposed to be this macho guy ,, so strong, a hero, but the way they cornered the bull, the bull doesn't have a chance.
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/26/2008 12:36:27 AM
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solo_soprano22
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To think the matadores are being as "courageous" as they could be, I'd like to see them fight a bull that is NOT maimed by banderillas. If they choose to fight a bull, then don't maim it then fight it. Just fight it, if that's what you want. Then don't kill it in that manner. If it must be killed (the primary killing isn't for meat), don't do it the way the matadores do and don't let the matadores do it, unless it is in a humane manner.
One of our profes used to require students that study abroad to go to bullfights. They complained and now it's no longer a requirement. Of couse, the profe isn't happy, but I think that's only fair. Even if I did agree with it, I can see how it's unethical to some and wouldn't force anyone to go.
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/26/2008 1:38:49 AM
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Child4Jesus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
i went to a bullfight in mexico some years ago.. I WAS SICKENED.
i felt sorry for the bull.
The way the matador is teasing the bull, sticking him with those spears, and the poor bull looked like it was in pain and bleeding, and then this co.cky matador prancing around like he was Mr Special, it just was so sad that i cried afterward. I felt sorry for the bull and wish the bull would have won.
He was prancing around like he was Mr. Special because that is what the Matador does. That is what he is supposed to do. He is playing his role.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/26/2008 1:44:41 AM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
For the bull to win, the matadores don't have to die. I don't think they have to be gored either.
That's true. If the bull wants an indulto AND make it to the ranch alive, though, he'd better do something quick. Either way I'm sure his odds are horrible.
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/26/2008 2:08:30 AM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
For the bull to win, the matadores don't have to die. I don't think they have to be gored either.
That's true. If the bull wants an indulto AND make it to the ranch alive, though, he'd better do something quick. Either way I'm sure his odds are horrible.
One of the guys in a Spanish class I'm currently taking was talking about some famous matador that got gored and almost died. I wonder if his bull was allowed to live. He wasn't sure of the name, and my profe knows of the incident... He said the man almost died because the bull gored him straight up the rectum, perhaps one of those times when the matador turns his back on the bull. I'm still trying to find the story though... It'd help if I had a name, lol. I know the matador will be out for a while, but I'm wondering about the bull.
I was thinking a bull could win if it were just especially good. I've seen a few times that the bull can pick up and toss the matador about without impaling them.
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/26/2008 8:36:20 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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yeah like the poster said above, let the bull and the matador fight mano to mano... without weapons.. then lets see who is brave! the matador will probably be gored and run away from the bull. now that would be a bullfight i would love to see.
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/26/2008 12:12:05 PM
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abraxas
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quote:
One of the guys in a Spanish class I'm currently taking was talking about some famous matador that got gored and almost died. I wonder if his bull was allowed to live. He wasn't sure of the name, and my profe knows of the incident... He said the man almost died because the bull gored him straight up the rectum, perhaps one of those times when the matador turns his back on the bull. I'm still trying to find the story though... It'd help if I had a name, lol. I know the matador will be out for a while, but I'm wondering about the bull.
OH that is painful to consider! I confess I root for the bull in bullfighting, but shedenfreude (sp?) has its limits it seems.
This isn't the one you have in mind (it's a pamplona shot) but what the heck... brothers gored
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