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RE: Bullfighting - 10/22/2008 3:46:31 PM
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wshepherd
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I hate it. I don't like animal torture of ANY kind.
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"You will either be a good example or a horrible warning."
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/22/2008 4:32:03 PM
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rcjames
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What do I think about Spanish Bull fighting?
I always root for the bull to win.
Now good ole American bull riding is much more of a fair contest.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/22/2008 8:49:30 PM
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Jhud
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The bulls have their turn in Pamplona; turnabout is fair play.
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/22/2008 9:01:37 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I find it both disgusting and barbaric, and it certainly is unscriptural. The bulls have no choice -- people do this with evil intent. Disgusting.
RC, I am not at all into either bull fighting or rodeos, but I must ask: don't they bind up and squeeze a certain part of the bull's anatomy in order to make them buck? If so, that, too, is cruel in my opinion.
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/22/2008 11:57:45 PM
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LCannon
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quote:
but I must ask: don't they bind up and squeeze...
No. The flank strap is ahead of the hips while the 'sensitives' are between and under the rear hips. The strap is looped loosely as a wide belt to 'encourage' the bull to get rid of it. Usually he doesn't need much 'encouragement' to try to get the strap or rider off.
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/23/2008 9:56:24 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
I find it both disgusting and barbaric, and it certainly is unscriptural. The bulls have no choice -- people do this with evil intent. Disgusting.
I find it rather ironic, that the cattle used for bullfighting - an Iberian cattle breed - live on large free range estates and are kept healthy. strong, and well fed until they enter the ring, as opposed to those animals who grace our tables and fast food restaurants, who rarely enjoy such priveleges. One man's 'barbarism' in another man's culture.
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/23/2008 11:17:39 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
The culture thing doesn't cut it for me. Not torturing animals isn't something that culture has anything to do with; it's just a human responsibility. I do appreciate that killing the bull is outlawed in some Latin American countries.
Oh, please - and man facing a strong, fast, determined animal face to face with lances and a sword is not 'torture', it is a contest of strength. We can't turn the whole world into My Little Pet Shop.
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/23/2008 1:27:05 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Well, oh, please again. The bulls have no choice. They are beasts, goaded into a barbaric practice. The people who do this are, themselves, acting more beastly than the beasts themselves, and the people who sit about watching them are the same.
Certain beasts were made for meat. The Scriptures clearly state this. The same Scriptures also clearly state that an animal is to be treated well, not cruelly, not poked and prodded with sharp sticks for the fun of certain barbaric people. If the animals intended for meat were killed as G-d intended them to be, they would not suffer even close to what these bulls suffer.
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/23/2008 3:24:33 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
ll, oh, please again. The bulls have no choice. They are beasts, goaded into a barbaric practice. The people who do this are, themselves, acting more beastly than the beasts themselves, and the people who sit about watching them are the same.
Certain beasts were made for meat. The Scriptures clearly state this. The same Scriptures also clearly state that an animal is to be treated well, not cruelly, not poked and prodded with sharp sticks for the fun of certain barbaric people. If the animals intended for meat were killed as G-d intended them to be, they would not suffer even close to what these bulls suffer.
Well then God shouldn't have created lions and wolves, because if you have ever seen them kill an animal, it is far more unpleasant.
Indeed, men have been killing cattle with spears and arrows almost as long as there have been men; and in a way that escapes certain people, I think that a person who actually faces the animal they are going to have to kill, rather than having someone else safely do away with it out of sight so they can eat it like it was created in a package or can does a greater diservice to the value of that creature than does any Matador.
I have been around enough bulls to know that the bulls in the ring are doing what comes natural to them; in fact, they are acting much more like their wild ancestors that God created than the meatloaf on legs we commonly see in farms.
You can argue all you want that it is preferable to keep a genetically sedated animal in the confines of a farm, neuter him, and then lead him off quietly to be slaughtered by a shot in the head - but were I a bull, I would much rather live the life that the Spanish variety live, to live freely, preparing for the day when I run through the streets and than face the one who would kill me with some dignity, not led to slaughter like a lamb. And I have no desire to have the entire world feminized in such a way where the only activities remain are those which don't make certain people squeamish.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/23/2008 4:09:50 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Beasts are beasts and will act like beasts. This gives no human being the right to also act like a beast. \
Jhud, you are incorrect.
If we are believers, we are to act like believers. You cannot deny correctly that the Bible says to treat animals humanely. Animals are protected by the Scriptures.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/23/2008 4:11:23 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
And I have no desire to have the entire world feminized in such a way where the only activities remain are those which don't make certain people squeamish.
Now, this went way over the top. I cannot even believe you, of all people, would write such a thing.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/23/2008 4:37:17 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 470
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From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I find it both disgusting and barbaric, and it certainly is unscriptural. The bulls have no choice -- people do this with evil intent. Disgusting.
I find it rather ironic, that the cattle used for bullfighting - an Iberian cattle breed - live on large free range estates and are kept healthy. strong, and well fed until they enter the ring, as opposed to those animals who grace our tables and fast food restaurants, who rarely enjoy such priveleges. One man's 'barbarism' in another man's culture.
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
The culture thing doesn't cut it for me. Not torturing animals isn't something that culture has anything to do with; it's just a human responsibility. I do appreciate that killing the bull is outlawed in some Latin American countries. 
I could be wrong but I think they us the meat for food after the bull is killed. The thing for me is I don't see the difference with pushing the sword into the spine so the bull dies faster or shooting a bull in the head like they do here or cutting the throat like other places.
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Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/23/2008 6:15:10 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7594
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Beasts are beasts and will act like beasts. This gives no human being the right to also act like a beast. \
Jhud, you are incorrect.
If we are believers, we are to act like believers. You cannot deny correctly that the Bible says to treat animals humanely. Animals are protected by the Scriptures.
When a human kills an animal, whether in a slaughterhouse, out hunting, or in with a bow or a spear, that aren't 'acting like animals', and it is wrong, and not Scripturally supported, to contend that they are.
quote:
Now, this went way over the top. I cannot even believe you, of all people, would write such a thing.
I am sorry to use such strong language in response; I respct your wisdom in many things, but quite frankly, I don't see this argument as being any different then the one's I hear from PETA applied to hunting and fishing.
God didn't just create animals for us to gaze fondly at and occasionally to eat, but to display strength, fearsomeness, and power. And men, like young David fighting the bear and lion, test their mettle against such things and become men. I don't in any way mean this harshly, but I don't think women for the most part understand this, and when they try to create a world where no man can face such things, they make less what God created men to be.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/23/2008 6:29:44 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Jhud, I know that I will forget that this "conversation" ever happened, because I have always respected you, and that is the way I determine that it shall stay, but right now, you remain mistaken! David killed the beasts that came against his flock. He didn't go out and just recklessly kill beasts in order to have trophies. He killed the people who came against Israel and Israel's G-d. The Scriptures are very plain! One is not to just kill a beast for no reason! No one is to hurt a beast without reason.
G-d did not create beasts so that some wimp could just go out and cut them down without reason -- so that they could hang them on the wall as trophies! One may kill a beast in order to eat, to clothe themselves, and when there was a Tabernacle or Temple (as well as when there shall be in the future, according to the Scriptures), to offer sacrifice to G-d.
We are to respect the animals. We are not to take their lives for fun and games. That's just Bible and has nothing whatsoever to do with Peta. Just because PETA got something right, are we to discount it? No! If it is in the Bible, it was there First, and it is what G-d has had written. Don't discount what He has had written just because you don't agree with it.
I don't like the death penalty, but it is in the Bible, and I must bow to G-d's wisdom! I don't like living submissively to my husband, but it is in the Bible, and I must bow to God's wisdom!
You may not like cats, but that does not give you a right to make highway pancakes of them. They are to be treated as the creation of G-d that they are. The same goes for bulls.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/23/2008 6:35:15 PM
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solarflare
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Torture and killing for entertainment is never good. Whether it be man or beast. God did not create either for 'sport' killing. Even oxen were not to be muzzled when they were used to grind grain. So, how much less torture for entertainment.
Fighting with and killing animals is not how you 'become a man" IMO. It is rather what is in the heart and mind. I am not against killing for meat. Killing for sport is not what most animals do.... some do, most do not. Man on the other hand, actually calls it "sport hunting". And please do not bring wolves etc. into it......they work very hard for what they eat and have been vilified by those who do worse.
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/23/2008 6:36:22 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
David killed the beasts that came against his flock. He didn't go out and just recklessly kill beasts in order to have trophies. He killed the people who came against Israel and Israel's G-d. The Scriptures are very plain! One is not to just kill a beast for no reason! No one is to hurt a beast without reason.
Just so.
quote:
I don't in any way mean this harshly, but I don't think women for the most part understand this
Well, that is your opinion, IMO. 
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/23/2008 6:36:37 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
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I would love to attend a Spanish bullfight once.
That said, I prefer bull-riding to bull-fighting.
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/23/2008 6:37:49 PM
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solo_soprano22
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I don't think it has anything to do with being female... I know manly men who see it the same way. Being a man doesn't make abusing/torturing animals automatically a good thing, does it? I mean any kind of animal-- wild, tame, huge, little, etc. I don't mind gruesome things myself, but I don't see the need to bring them about purposefully (or the "rightness" of it), unless there's good reason.
I consider myself to be far away from PETA in mindset. This though, I can agree with them about, at least partially. I'm sure they want some outrageous punishment or something that I disagree with.
And just for the record, there are/have been female matadores...not sure about female banderillas. :)
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/23/2008 6:38:37 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
I would love to attend a Spanish bullfight once.
That said, I prefer bull-riding to bull-fighting.
Blood sport....rodeo sport....neither are sport, IMO.
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/23/2008 6:50:10 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1298
Joined: 9/22/2005
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quote:
Blood sport....rodeo sport....neither are sport, IMO.
Well, there ya go, we both stated our opinion, then, didn't we.
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Give a hoot, eat yer Lute, Der's no risk in Lutefisk.
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/23/2008 6:51:18 PM
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1love1God1way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
You cannot deny correctly that the Bible says to treat animals humanely.
I've never seen anywhere that I am suppose to treat an animal like I treat a human.
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/23/2008 6:58:58 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7594
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Jhud, I know that I will forget that this "conversation" ever happened, because I have always respected you, and that is the way I determine that it shall stay, but right now, you remain mistaken! David killed the beasts that came against his flock. He didn't go out and just recklessly kill beasts in order to have trophies. He killed the people who came against Israel and Israel's G-d. The Scriptures are very plain! One is not to just kill a beast for no reason! No one is to hurt a beast without reason.
G-d did not create beasts so that some wimp could just go out and cut them down without reason -- so that they could hang them on the wall as trophies! One may kill a beast in order to eat, to clothe themselves, and when there was a Tabernacle or Temple (as well as when there shall be in the future, according to the Scriptures), to offer sacrifice to G-d.
We are to respect the animals. We are not to take their lives for fun and games. That's just Bible and has nothing whatsoever to do with Peta. Just because PETA got something right, are we to discount it? No! If it is in the Bible, it was there First, and it is what G-d has had written. Don't discount what He has had written just because you don't agree with it.
I don't like the death penalty, but it is in the Bible, and I must bow to G-d's wisdom! I don't like living submissively to my husband, but it is in the Bible, and I must bow to God's wisdom!
You may not like cats, but that does not give you a right to make highway pancakes of them. They are to be treated as the creation of G-d that they are. The same goes for bulls.
Let me be clear; I don't recklessly kill animals, and I am one of those ridiculous people who will stop my car on a busy road to make sure a turtle doesn't get squished.
And I don't think anyone should 'recklessly' kill animals - and I do not think that is what Matadors do - they face these animals face to face; it is perhaps one of the most dangerous activities there is; men die facing these animals. Now whether or not that is a foolish use of one's time is up to debate, but they certainly aren't 'wimping out' and they aren't wasting the animals lives anymore than than anyone who kills an animal for food.
And I think men who interact with animals in this way respect them more then the people who mindlessly buy a burger at McDonald's, who never know how these animals actually live and die, and only have an idealistic idea about how we really survive in this world. Even if one is a vegan, thousands of animals die when a field is plowed to plant a crop; but those who consume the crops assume their needs don't harm animals, when in reality is for humans to live, a certain number of animals die, most without a thought or care from us.
I was in Africa a few years back and I spent some time with a few Maasai. Even to this day, at a young age (around twelve I believe) they go out and hunt a lion with a spear. It is a demonstration of strength and fearlessness. Is the lions life wasted? No - the Masai lived alongside lions for millenia before the Western world came along and reduced their population through indifference and greed, and in many ways, young men needed to demonstrate that they could care for the herds when they grew up. It serves a purpose, though one we maynot relate to.
I am sure the tradition of the Matador fighting a bull developed in much the same way; we may not understand with our 21st century sensibilities, and I don't think it is a custom our culture needs to adopt at this place and time - but we should not dismiss it as mere cruelty or entertainment simply because we choose not to do so ourselves.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Bullfighting - 10/23/2008 6:59:59 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3408
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
David killed the beasts that came against his flock. He didn't go out and just recklessly kill beasts in order to have trophies. He killed the people who came against Israel and Israel's G-d. The Scriptures are very plain! One is not to just kill a beast for no reason! No one is to hurt a beast without reason.
Just so.
quote:
I don't in any way mean this harshly, but I don't think women for the most part understand this
Well, that is your opinion, IMO.
IF you are writing that I said your last quotation, you are mistaken.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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