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Jesus heal - 10/15/2008 2:34:33 PM
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P31W
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Do we have any scripture to support the idea that Jesus healed people who did not have faith?
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/15/2008 2:39:21 PM
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Qtman
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I can remember none. I think that was an integral part of the healing.
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/15/2008 2:45:08 PM
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P31W
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So he discriminated and that was not considered to be "unloving" towards that person was it?
What I am getting at is that Jesus did not just heal everyone from what I can see. Nor did he try nor do I see him commanding others to heal everyone.
So why is it considered unloving of me not to want to provide medical insurance, welfare and disability to EVERYONE?
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/15/2008 2:50:35 PM
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P31W
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BTW Qman.
I love Halloween. Have the anit-halloween folks hit the forum yet?
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/15/2008 3:02:00 PM
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JimboFletch
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Both Lazarus and the daughter of the synagogue ruller (in Mark 5) exhibited about the least faith possible in the worst condition possible.
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/15/2008 3:04:51 PM
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Qtman
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Yes the anti halloween people have hit. And it will only get worse over the next few days.
As to providing insurance and disability to everyone I don't have the answers. I think it should be made available but it should be up to each person to see to it that they are covered. I have to buy my own insurance.
_____________________________
STRESS = The internal struggle created when the brain trys to over ride the heart's desire to tell off some jerk that really deserves to be told off.
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/15/2008 3:06:05 PM
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JimboFletch
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Also, the Centurion's servant in Matthew 8:8 had no faith in Jesus to heal, only the Centurion did (sort of like an employer).
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/15/2008 3:06:28 PM
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Qtman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Both Lazarus and the daughter of the synagogue ruller (in Mark 5) exhibited about the least faith possible in the worst condition possible.
That is true Jimbo they were both dead. But they were raised because of the faith of their sisters in Lazarus' case and the girls father.
_____________________________
STRESS = The internal struggle created when the brain trys to over ride the heart's desire to tell off some jerk that really deserves to be told off.
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/15/2008 3:09:35 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
...I have to buy my own insurance.
So do I, but if they continue raising mine 20% a year like they have the past 2 years, I'll soon not be able to pay. I already pay 14% of my gross salary on medical insurance.
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/15/2008 3:13:25 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Both Lazarus and the daughter of the synagogue ruller (in Mark 5) exhibited about the least faith possible in the worst condition possible.
That is true Jimbo they were both dead. But they were raised because of the faith of their sisters in Lazarus' case and the girls father.
That's not what the OP asked.
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/15/2008 3:13:26 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
So he discriminated and that was not considered to be "unloving" towards that person was it?
What I am getting at is that Jesus did not just heal everyone from what I can see. Nor did he try nor do I see him commanding others to heal everyone.
So why is it considered unloving of me not to want to provide medical insurance, welfare and disability to EVERYONE?
For the record - I wouldn't call it unloving, though I do think it's not an accurate view of what we're called to do. Unloving is way, way too strong a word. I don't think I could really ever direct that at you. (And if I ever have, I hereby apologize and grovel.)
One possible example: The story of the good samaritan. There's no indication there that faith or the lack of it was a factor in meeting the need.
Also, Matthew 25. If you see a legitimate need, fill it to the extent you are able. Obviously you can't address every possible need. But you can do what you can. Matthew 25 isn't bounded or qualifed by any sort of eligibility rules.
Matthew 8:13 - Peter's mother's faith is uncertain. The bible is silent there.
Matthew 8:28 - It's fairly certain that the two demon-posessed men were healed regardless of any faith. If anything, it would seem they were healed against their will, though that also can't be said with any certainty.
Matthew 10:7-9 - As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.' 8Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a]drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts;
(This passage doesn't seem to be qualified as to any previously or simultaneously held faith - "Freely give ...." seems to be the command.)
Matthew 12:21 - Jesus healed a demon posessed man as a witness to others. This seems to be a key aspect of ministry that we often forget. It's not always about faith. Sometimes we're just called to show grace. Period.
Matthew 14:13-15 When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. 14When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.
(It's possible at least that Jesus' sole motivation here was compassion.)
Additional possible examples - we have record of Jesus performing other healings not specifically recorded. It's not certain that he always limited himself to those who had faith. In many of the examples in the bible, masses of people congregated around him seeking healing. It's by no means certain that all these people had faith. It's at least possible that some did not and were merely desperate for healing and were willing to put their hope in nearly anything that offered relief. We see that phenomenon today. People are willing to believe nearly anything if it will help them.
In a country this wealthy, I find it apalling that people die as a result of inadequate health care. I'm currently unemployed, but I'm lucky in that I can still afford private health insurance.
Very few people can do this - even people who manage their households well can't sometimes afford to take care of their own health needs
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/15/2008 3:15:59 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
I have to buy my own insurance.
Me too. By the way, did you ever realize how expensive COBRA is? For my family Cobra runs $1100 / month. I can buy better private insurance for less then $600.
Just an irrelevant tidbit of info. I wonder how many people know that COBRA is no bargain.
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/15/2008 3:21:12 PM
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Qtman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
I have to buy my own insurance.
Me too. By the way, did you ever realize how expensive COBRA is? For my family Cobra runs $1100 / month. I can buy better private insurance for less then $600.
Just an irrelevant tidbit of info. I wonder how many people know that COBRA is no bargain.
BT
I don't know how many don't know it is a bargain but a lot of folks don't even know it's available.
_____________________________
STRESS = The internal struggle created when the brain trys to over ride the heart's desire to tell off some jerk that really deserves to be told off.
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/15/2008 8:21:14 PM
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OleFitzHi
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Would you call it healing to cast out demons?
Then the Gadarene demoniac would qualify.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
I can remember none. I think that was an integral part of the healing.
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/15/2008 10:56:12 PM
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creationtalk
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As I recall, Jesus healed the man lowered through the roof because of the faith of the friends, not that of the paralytic.
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/16/2008 9:16:20 AM
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P31W
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quote:
In a country this wealthy, I find it apalling that people die as a result of inadequate health care. I'm currently unemployed, but I'm lucky in that I can still afford private health insurance.
Very few people can do this - even people who manage their households well can't sometimes afford to take care of their own health needs
I do not find it appalling at all. In Jesus day people died from starvation. Jesus never directed his followers to go stop starvation. In face he said the poor would Always be among us. (notice Jesus put himself above the poor ---- I fear too many Christians are putting human need above God now in this election) God told us in his word that people who lived a certain lifestyle "would" suffer for it.
Sin is the cause of suffering. Pure and simple.
Suffering is for our good. As one of his followers we are to expect suffering. God did not even withhold suffering from his only begotten Son. He suffered and died for us.
The example you gave of the good Samaritian deals with an "individual". Not a socialized government intervention. This is what Jesus was telling "His Children" they were to do....never did God tells us His Children to impose that standard on the lost world. In fact all the examples you gave deal with God's children doing "these good works".
If Christians would live by that Standard who would be recognized and glorified?
Would our Chruches have lost people clamoring to come into our midst inorder to know why we are "differant"?
quote:
Matthew 10:7-9 - As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.' 8Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a]drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts;
(This passage doesn't seem to be qualified as to any previously or simultaneously held faith - "Freely give ...." seems to be the command.)
Now this is out there for me. Freely you receive is not talking about money. No one "gave me money" rather Jesus is talking about freely we recieved the "gift of salvation" and freely we are to offer that to others.
Later in that same passage Jesus told them to be prepared and if someone would not recieve them they were to "dust their feet off" when they left. Do you know that is was a insult to do. Like someone kissing you today on your cheek and you wipe it off quickly with an angry look like How Dare You>
From what I am reading. You are trying to impose a Christian standard on a secular government.
God ordained the role of the gov. His instructions had nothing to do with it providing education, health care, retirment funds, or even food to the people. Rom. 13 It had to do with keeping the citizens safe from evil so that the citizens (mainly the Christians) could freely go about "doing" what God commanded "them" to do.
quote:
Matthew 12:21 - Jesus healed a demon posessed man as a witness to others. This seems to be a key aspect of ministry that we often forget. It's not always about faith. Sometimes we're just called to show grace. Period.
Notice here in this WONDERFUL verse. Jesus did this as a witness to others. A witness about what? About Himself. The "purpose" was to have people recognize who he was and repent of his sins. The government cannot and will not do something inorder to help people come to God. Again it's our responsbility to be that witness.
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/16/2008 9:20:38 AM
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P31W
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One more question for you.
When I gave you God's plan in scripture for caring for the widows in our midst. Why did you seek to find ways to say it would not work? I don't remember but one of the reasons why you said it would not work and it was the first one I believe. You said the Chruch did not have the money and in economic hard times money going to the church tends to go down.
This verse came to my mind immediately:
I Chronicles 29:11-12
Everything in the heavens and earth is Yours, O Lord, and this is Your kingdom. We adore you as being in control of everything. Riches and honor come from You alone, and Your are the Ruler of all mankind; Your hand controls power and might, and it is at your discretion that men are made great and given strength.
I believe the "reason" the money does not go to the Chruch is because Christians are in rebellion against God. Because they are not obeying Him God uses "money" as a tool to discipline them. I always tell my small elderly mainly congregation. As long as we are in God's will the money is ALWAYS be there. When the money is not there we need to get on our knees and find out what "we" are doing that is not in God's will or what we are neglecting to do for God.
If you notice. Our care for others is not so much about them as it is about God. Bringing Honor and Glory to God.
Does God care for the orpahn, widow, disabled, etc. Of course he does. The way I know this is that he sent his Son to die for them and commanded "us his children" to help minister to them. The greatest ministry we can give to them is not "govermental handouts" but personal acts of self sacrifice (not forced giving but wilful self sacrifice so they truly see Christ living in us) and telling them about the true Bread of Life.
Do you see where forcing people who are lost to provide for our poor is only making them see Christ as a joke.
< Message edited by P31W -- 10/16/2008 9:28:55 AM >
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/16/2008 11:40:28 AM
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LBolt
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To answer their was a first question wasn't there a gentleman who said, "I believe but help my unbelief..." Luke 9:14-24. I really believe the Yahshua had loving pity on the man. Bless His beautiful heart!
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/16/2008 11:54:53 AM
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P31W
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Yes. For me that shows that Jesus blesses even those with little faith. weak faith. I like that story as well.
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/17/2008 11:17:04 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
In a country this wealthy, I find it apalling that people die as a result of inadequate health care. I'm currently unemployed, but I'm lucky in that I can still afford private health insurance.
Very few people can do this - even people who manage their households well can't sometimes afford to take care of their own health needs
I do not find it appalling at all.
I'm appalled that you find nothing appalling in all that.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/18/2008 4:33:11 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
So why is it considered unloving of me not to want to provide medical insurance, welfare and disability to EVERYONE?
ahhhh it is unloving to not want to provide medical insurance, welfare and disability to everyone, BUT it is unthinkable to actually make it affordable for everyone.
if you look at the early church, that was probably the closest picture of a pure communal (communism?)lifestyle. Whenever there was a need, somebody met it. That's a wonderful concept for inside the church, but I don't think I want you to provide it for me.
Jesus did heal people who had no faith as Jimbofletch said, and that is what intercession is all about.
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/19/2008 10:29:14 PM
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Fwanger
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Remember the ten that He healed, and only one came back to thank Him. Makes you wonder how much faith the other nine had.
I do think though that their faith was an important aspect in the healings. Jesus would point out to some "Your faith has made you well."
So the better question would be, what kind of faith did they walk away with? Or what else was Jesus' healing aside from just their bodies?
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Often have I said, I will never doubt the salvation of any one, so long as I can but know that Christ has accepted me. C.H. Spurgeon "The Way of Salvation"
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/20/2008 8:17:33 AM
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rcjames
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Bringing this thought into today's Church, our instruction for healing is;
(Jas 5:14,15) Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Now the sick person does exhibit faith by calling on the elders of the Church to pray for him; but it is the faith of the elders in the prayer and God to heal that brings about the healing.
Thanks
RC
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Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/21/2008 11:58:05 AM
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GroupW
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RC-
A good and interesting point to ponder.
BT
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Jesus heal - 10/22/2008 12:41:19 PM
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sue244
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to take this an even step further, hopefully this will not be to far off the OP intent if it is I'm sorry, how about the fact that they Bible says we are to help those in the faith first, before helping those outside the faith.
Widows had to be faithful for them to get help from the Church 1 Tim 5:9,10
and I can't fine the scripture passage at the moment but I know there is one that says we need to help those inside the faith first. When i find that I will post.
_____________________________
"Indeed I Tremble for this country when I reflect that God is Just and His Justice cannot Sleep Forever"
Jefferson
"Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.” Churchill
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