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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/18/2008 7:19:14 AM
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manda59
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From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PaleHawkWoman
So they let these pigs roam all over the countryside? Or are they confined to the property of the owners? How are they handled, especially the sows with pigs?
Those pigs were on the Wiltshire hills, and they are out there in groups, in areas of about 15-20 acres, secured with electric fencing. I've seen sows and piglets out there too.
I live near the New Forest (Hampshire), which is a National Park, and there are reputedly some wild boar living there, but I've never seen any. The only ones I've seen were being bred in captivity as a rare breed. In the New Forest, ponies (wild and domestic) are free to roam around and graze, as as cattle, donkeys and, in the autumn, to clear up the excess of acorns, pigs!
Found this on YouTube:
Pigs and Piglets New Forest
There is also this 22 second clip of some teenage piglets chasing a policeman and a police dog in the New Forest!
Piglets chase Police Dog
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mvic, January 2009
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/19/2008 12:49:42 PM
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Auben
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From: Where pines tower and cranberries float
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Honestly, I'm more interested in local food more than free-range food. 'Free range' on the label can mean a lot of things including that similar treatment but a bit more space or a door that opens to the outside (even if they never get to go outside).
By buying local food I can use my money to support small farmers who treat their animals fairly. Hens that get to go outside and peck. Cows that get to graze, not just eat corn. Pigs that get to root. Animals that live in a more natural state so their systems are less stressed and in need of less chemicals. (One of the most troubling things about factory farms is the level of antibiotics and medications necessary for them to survive in unnaturally close quarters..to say nothing of growth hormones and other steroids. Doctors are constantly reminding us that virus' get used to antibiotics. They remind us to limit usage so they'll be available when we really need to fight a pathogen. This kind of wasteful use in the name of profit is setting us up for future problems.) The level of stress creates a less nutritious, less tasty animal.
Rather than having corporate farms getting larger and larger and turning farming into an assembly line who's main feature is cost not quality (nutrition/taste), I prefer to do my small part by spending a bit more (as I can afford) and investing in my local community. I do the same for fruits and vegetables.
A few years ago we couldn't do as much. We just did a little. As we get older and have fewer bills it's easy to pay a little more for what we believe in. It sure beats a new CD or a weekly trip to McDonalds.
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Tamara
~Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time~
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/19/2008 12:52:04 PM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
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Great post, Tamara!
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/19/2008 1:48:00 PM
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rcjames
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ONe point about free range beef; without supplements the meat will be very grainy and tough (Tough unless the slaughter house shoots them full of chemicals just before they kill them).
Also there will be no marbeling and a lot less flavor. Less flavor unless they have been grazing on a lot of certain weeds then the taste and smell will be a little rough for most folks.
Even cattle that have been free range most of their lives can benefit greatly from a couple of months on feed in the area of tenderness and flavor.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/19/2008 6:05:10 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
Posts: 645
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
ONe point about free range beef; without supplements the meat will be very grainy and tough (Tough unless the slaughter house shoots them full of chemicals just before they kill them).
Also there will be no marbeling and a lot less flavor. Less flavor unless they have been grazing on a lot of certain weeds then the taste and smell will be a little rough for most folks.
Even cattle that have been free range most of their lives can benefit greatly from a couple of months on feed in the area of tenderness and flavor.
Thanks
RC
I could see that for cattle ranging out West, but not in areas where there is a lot of grass. Older animals, particularly bulls, WILL be tougher. We butcher ours as yearlings. The bull calves are castrated within a month of birth, which also improves the quality of their meat. Our pasture is a mix of fescue, orchard, tomothy, red and ledina clover, and >5% alfalfa. Even without graining them, their meat is tender and tasty, lean but with just a touch of fat for flavor.
Of course, we eat a lot of deer, squirrel, and other game meat so we're used to leaner meats. Heck, I learned how to take the gaminess out of meat from old bucks, which works for old bulls too.
I DO heartily agree with buying from local farmers!!!! More growers are selling directly to the public rather than to the stores, but if enough customers ask fo local-grown produce, eggs, milk, and meats, more stores will start buying locally. Not every city has a farmer's market, but if your does please patronize it!
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/19/2008 6:23:33 PM
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rcjames
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PaleHawkWoman
I could see that for cattle ranging out West, but not in areas where there is a lot of grass. Older animals, particularly bulls, WILL be tougher. We butcher ours as yearlings. The bull calves are castrated within a month of birth, which also improves the quality of their meat. Our pasture is a mix of fescue, orchard, tomothy, red and ledina clover, and >5% alfalfa. Even without graining them, their meat is tender and tasty, lean but with just a touch of fat for flavor.
Of course, we eat a lot of deer, squirrel, and other game meat so we're used to leaner meats. Heck, I learned how to take the gaminess out of meat from old bucks, which works for old bulls too.
I DO heartily agree with buying from local farmers!!!! More growers are selling directly to the public rather than to the stores, but if enough customers ask fo local-grown produce, eggs, milk, and meats, more stores will start buying locally. Not every city has a farmer's market, but if your does please patronize it!
What is the approximate weight of the yearlings when you slaughter them?
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/20/2008 2:05:25 PM
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stampinlady
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Thanks for all of your posts. I was really upset when I saw how those chickens in such tight quarters. I know I have to pay more for organic and free range, but maybe I can cut a few things out that we don't reallt need. I do care about how our food is handled and believe that God expects us to care for food. I have gone to our farmers market, but didn't want to pay more.
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Deb
"You don't need a New Year's Resolution, you need a Resurection! Dr. Tony Evans
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/20/2008 3:40:05 PM
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miasma
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quote:
I know I have to pay more for organic and free range, but maybe I can cut a few things out that we don't reallt need.
Well, yes, of course you can see where you can spend less, but going organic isn't necessarily more expensive - esp. if you can do it "local."
quote:
I do care about how our food is handled and believe that God expects us to care for food.
As well you should!
quote:
I have gone to our farmers market, but didn't want to pay more.
I don't know what sort of "farmer's market" you have (like, I've been to big fancy ones, and ones that were little more than a few pick up trucks), but I've found locally grown produce is always quite a bit cheaper than that in the store.
Check out farmfoody.org, see what providers might be near you. See if there's any farmers interesting in bartering, or trading. Or do like I do, and think of it as part of your tithing. Helping a family put a roof over their heads and such.
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/20/2008 10:42:16 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
Posts: 645
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: PaleHawkWoman
I could see that for cattle ranging out West, but not in areas where there is a lot of grass. Older animals, particularly bulls, WILL be tougher. We butcher ours as yearlings. The bull calves are castrated within a month of birth, which also improves the quality of their meat. Our pasture is a mix of fescue, orchard, tomothy, red and ledina clover, and >5% alfalfa. Even without graining them, their meat is tender and tasty, lean but with just a touch of fat for flavor.
Of course, we eat a lot of deer, squirrel, and other game meat so we're used to leaner meats. Heck, I learned how to take the gaminess out of meat from old bucks, which works for old bulls too.
I DO heartily agree with buying from local farmers!!!! More growers are selling directly to the public rather than to the stores, but if enough customers ask fo local-grown produce, eggs, milk, and meats, more stores will start buying locally. Not every city has a farmer's market, but if your does please patronize it!
What is the approximate weight of the yearlings when you slaughter them?
Thanks
RC
Depending on the breeds (we have cross-bred cattle of several breeds) 500-800 lbs. The yearling dairy-cross(jersey or holstein crossed with meat-bred) steers are lighter in bone structure and weigh less. The meat-cross steers have denser bone and meat and thus weigh more. Our bull is a limousine. For the cows we have 1 jersey and 1 holstein, 2 short-horn/herefords, and the rest herefords. 2 of the heifers we're keeping are limousine-hereford and will be bred next year with a new bull. The bull weighs about 1800+lbs, but the cows range 600-800 lbs.
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/21/2008 7:30:11 AM
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agapetos
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From: This side of the lil duck pond!
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quote:
I know I have to pay more for organic and free range, but maybe I can cut a few things out that we don't reallt need. It's not necessarily cutting things out, but perhaps cutting back on the amount of meat that you eat and how you use it. You can roast a chicken and then boil the bones and take the scraps off and make soup with the stock.
You can add lentils, beans and many other things to mince (ground) meat to cut the cost of organic ~ you don't need to add lots and overpower the meat, but even a little helps (and you can always blend lentils or beans if folk fuss and then they won't notice!).
You don't need huge great steaks on your plate, no matter how good it looks! You don't even need to eat meat 2 or 3 times a day. You may need to work on changing your thinking on these things though!
And buying meat that hasn't had water added to it (and many do) means that there's less shrinkage when it's cooked, resulting in more end product.
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/21/2008 9:29:28 AM
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manda59
Posts: 6187
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From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PaleHawkWoman
I could see that for cattle ranging out West, but not in areas where there is a lot of grass.
Now you see, there's the difference. I live in the UK, and I don't know what proportion of our beef is out on grass, but it's a lot. Some of our beef comes in for the winter, and gets fed cake and silage, but that's usually only from November-March. Maybe that's why it's lean and flavoursome.
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mvic, January 2009
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/21/2008 11:31:20 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: PaleHawkWoman
I could see that for cattle ranging out West, but not in areas where there is a lot of grass.
Now you see, there's the difference. I live in the UK, and I don't know what proportion of our beef is out on grass, but it's a lot. Some of our beef comes in for the winter, and gets fed cake and silage, but that's usually only from November-March. Maybe that's why it's lean and flavoursome.
I live in Tennessee, and we run 15-20 head on 150 acres, about 5 acres per animal. They eat grass during the warm months, and hay, acorns, persimmons, and winter wheat and rye during the late fall and winter. We have a total of 407 acres, but most of our place is comprised of steep hills and ridges, heavily wooded, and deep hollows. Frankly, I'm planning on selling the herefords and crossbreeding Scottish Highland with Beefalo to take advantage of the brush forage. Both breeds are hardy, meaty, fatten up on rough forage, and the Highlanders are reputed to have an easy disposition. Beefalo(cross of any breed domestic cattle and American Bison) have lean, sweet-tasting meat, are disease-resisitant, and can handle extremes of heat and cold. Both have wooly coats rather than hair, which can be carded and spun nicely for coats or heavy sweaters.
Over here, tho, Angus is all the rage for meat, and I'm not adverse to buying a cow or 2. However, I find that cross-bred cattle and goats tend to fare better on the forage and topography we have around here. The heat and humidity, and the past 2 yrs drought, also necessitate breeding for hardiness and the ability to gain on minimal forage. Angus require more water than do some older breeds, such as highland cattle, and will generally forage on brush or other rough feed only if nothing else is available.
We rotate our livestock, cattle first, then the goats, between the fields and woods. The goats have to be put up at night because of roaming dogs and coyotes. We used to lose calves to the dogs and coyotes until I put my horses out with the cows- my mares kill canines who trespass upon their territory.
My buckskin mare also went after the NES contracting crew that came thru the gate without first notifying us of their presence, left the gates open where the livestock could have gotten out, and then one guy decided to get out to pet the horses. Chick doesn't like strangers and doesn't particularly like men, so she backed her ears and went after the guy. He was running backwards until he could turn around and hop into the truck. Chick reared up, pawed the door, and then turned around and kicked the door hard enough to dent it. She paced around the truck until I haltered her and put the horses up in the corral. She watched them the whole time they were on the place, and with obvious displeasure. Once they pulled out of the gate, I turned the horses loose and she ran down the fence chasing the truck as it drove down the road. Bet those guys think twice about coming back.
Oh, and she also chased, bit, and kicked a trespasser who was apparently casing my great-aunt's house out. Turned out he had been part of a group burglarizing homes and garages in the area. He managed to crawl under the fence to get away from her but he was banged up pretty badly. A cop who was on regular patrol happened to drive by as he did, and knew the dude not only didn't belong on our property but that he was a regular felon and wanted for questioning in the local burglaries. The officer told me later that the perp squawked all the way downtown about the crazy horse trying to kill him and the officer opined that if she had, it would no doubt have saved the taxpayers quite a bit of expense. She isn't aggressive to anyone who comes on the place with us, and is rather fond of little kids.
Chick is 19 yrs old, and I've raised her from a foal. She learns things easily and is a greattrailhorse. Very intelligent, too- she's a better hunting companion than most dogs, and you can shoot off of her back. She can also open most gates and doors so we have to lock them. I've ridden her all day over rough terrain and she doesn't tire out or pull up lame. She has never been shod, either. When I go to bring the cows and goats in she helps the dogs round them up. She plays soccer, tag, plays with the hose, and will drink beer out of the bottle if someone gives it to her. She especially likes french fries and Payday candy bars.
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/22/2008 12:26:45 AM
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ffbruce
Posts: 271
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PaleHawkWoman
I could see that for cattle ranging out West, but not in areas where there is a lot of grass. Older animals, particularly bulls, WILL be tougher. We butcher ours as yearlings. The bull calves are castrated within a month of birth, which also improves the quality of their meat. Our pasture is a mix of fescue, orchard, tomothy, red and ledina clover, and >5% alfalfa. Even without graining them, their meat is tender and tasty, lean but with just a touch of fat for flavor.
Of course, we eat a lot of deer, squirrel, and other game meat so we're used to leaner meats. Heck, I learned how to take the gaminess out of meat from old bucks, which works for old bulls too.
I DO heartily agree with buying from local farmers!!!! More growers are selling directly to the public rather than to the stores, but if enough customers ask fo local-grown produce, eggs, milk, and meats, more stores will start buying locally. Not every city has a farmer's market, but if your does please patronize it!
I could be snarky here and complain about you torturing animals by castrating them, but I'll hold my tongue.
What I do want to say, though, is that there is a HUGE difference between grass-cattle and corn-fed cattle. There is absolutely no comparison in the taste of the beef.
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/22/2008 7:47:32 AM
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manda59
Posts: 6187
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From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ffbruce
I could be snarky here and complain about you torturing animals by castrating them, but I'll hold my tongue.
Oh please. If it's done like you do lambs, with an elastic band, and if it's done as early as possible, the calf shows little or no discomfort and is skipping around again right afterwards.
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mvic, January 2009
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/22/2008 7:49:50 AM
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manda59
Posts: 6187
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PaleHawkWoman
Over here, tho, Angus is all the rage for meat, and I'm not adverse to buying a cow or 2.
Over here in the UK, farmers often use an Angus bull on their heifers, as even Angus cross calves come out smaller and make for an easier calving for the first-timers. They also tend to be quite docile.
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"Manda is right"
mvic, January 2009
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/22/2008 12:33:04 PM
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stampinlady
Posts: 1527
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
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quote:
going organic isn't necessarily more expensive - esp. if you can do it "local."
Not here in N. IL . Maybe it depends on where you live. I'd love to by organic beef, but .... .
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Deb
"You don't need a New Year's Resolution, you need a Resurection! Dr. Tony Evans
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/22/2008 1:10:25 PM
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Auben
Posts: 1608
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From: Where pines tower and cranberries float
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Deb, you may find it cheaper to find a local farmer who will raise beef, pork or chicken for you. You order it in the spring, pay half down, and then the rest after slaughter. Most will allow you to order half (and sometimes even quarter) portions. You do need a freezer but with enough time (an entire season) it's usually pretty easy to find one on Freecycle or at a local garage sale for very little money.
We did that this year and while the chicken was not a great savings (I think it was a 20 cent per pound savings over buying it at the local country store), the beef and pork was.
If you're only going down to the farm once or twice a year it may be cheaper to look for something a bit further out from the suburbs...say up in McHenry or out by Dekalb.
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Tamara
~Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time~
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/22/2008 1:19:28 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5782
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: ffbruce
I could be snarky here and complain about you torturing animals by castrating them, but I'll hold my tongue.
Oh please. If it's done like you do lambs, with an elastic band, and if it's done as early as possible, the calf shows little or no discomfort and is skipping around again right afterwards.
Oh that sounds animal friendly, just let the testacles rot and fall off.
Very animal friendly.
Thasnk
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/22/2008 2:01:31 PM
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manda59
Posts: 6187
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Oh that sounds animal friendly, just let the testacles rot and fall off.
Very animal friendly.
If the animal was stressed by it all, it wouldn't run and skip around and eat as normal afterwards. And they do. To be accurate, the blood supply is slowly cut off, and the scrotum just dries up and drops off.
<wonders how many of the guys reading here just crossed their legs, lol>
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"Manda is right"
mvic, January 2009
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/22/2008 2:03:33 PM
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miasma
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Auben's right. I have some friends that do that with a local pig farmer. Or you could post ads in local sporting goods stores, often hunters are looking to give away extra meat from their kills.
All the organic meat I've had was so distinctly superior to the grocery store variety I'd been used to. I was really, really surprised.
Me, I just cut out the meat entirely. Doesn't make any kind of difference. Luckily, some friends of mine can afford the nice stuff, and they share, but I'm just as happy to go without and save the money and keep all the toxins out of my body.
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/23/2008 2:21:17 AM
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PaleHawkWoman
Posts: 645
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: ffbruce
I could be snarky here and complain about you torturing animals by castrating them, but I'll hold my tongue.
Oh please. If it's done like you do lambs, with an elastic band, and if it's done as early as possible, the calf shows little or no discomfort and is skipping around again right afterwards.
Oh that sounds animal friendly, just let the testacles rot and fall off.
Very animal friendly.
Thasnk
RC
Having sympathy pains there, RC? Honestly, the animals don't miss them!
A big part of animal husbandry has always required breeding the best to the best for the health and improvement of the herd/flock. Intact males are valuable only if they are of top quality for breeding. Otherwise you castrate them to keep them from breeding. Less desireable females are kept from breeding as neutering them is far more difficult and astronomically expensive. Heifers, gilts, ewes, does, and hens who are less than desireable as breeders are butchered. The only prupose for steers, wethers, cockerills, and shoats is for meat.
The meat of castrated males is superior in quality and taste to that of intact males. Their dispositions are also much easier to deal with. A bull is a bull and will be aggressive no matter how socialized to humans he may be. Same with boars, bucks, and rams. I've yet to see a rooster, tom, drake, or gander who isn't aggressive to some degree, either, but you can't castrate fowl.
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