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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/15/2008 4:05:39 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
If a line is hard to draw, does that mean abuse cannot exist?
No; but it is important to tell us when it does exist.
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/15/2008 4:09:56 PM
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doinkdom
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I draw the line at clipping the beaks from chickens so they become deformed just for the convenience of shoving them all in the same cage.
I draw the line at the inhumane execution of animals for our consumption. Veal is a good example, but not the only example.
Confining a herding animal for their protection and safety or to recuperate from illness, etc. is not abuse if it is temporary and they are returned. I'm referring to the entire life of an animal spent in a 2x3 cage without being able to turn around, etc.
Just as background info...I am very familiar with farms and how animals live on them. I was also privileged to work with a group of journalists in doing a follow up fact finding mission regarding the treatment of domestic animals on the mass production farms.
HOWEVER and obviously - this is a pet topic of mine and I get a little emotional about it.
So instead of opening up the door to sin all over everyone in here  I'm excusing myself from the discussion.
I know that where I'm heading ain't pretty....
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/15/2008 4:11:41 PM
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manda59
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It's pretty easy to keep free range chickens in and safe - electric poultry netting. Keeps them in and predators out. That's what the chicken farm near us uses.
I only buy free range chickens (and we have our own free range eggs). I would not have it any other way. Both from the welfare point of view and the taste point of view. Free range chicken meat is tastier and much more succulent, and free range eggs have a lovely rich yellow yolk, rather than the insipid yolks produced by battery birds.
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/15/2008 4:14:33 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7598
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
I draw the line at clipping the beaks from chickens so they become deformed just for the convenience of shoving them all in the same cage.
I draw the line at the inhumane execution of animals for our consumption. Veal is a good example, but not the only example.
Confining a herding animal for their protection and safety or to recuperate from illness, etc. is not abuse if it is temporary and they are returned. I'm referring to the entire life of an animal spent in a 2x3 cage without being able to turn around, etc.
Just as background info...I am very familiar with farms and how animals live on them. I was also privileged to work with a group of journalists in doing a follow up fact finding mission regarding the treatment of domestic animals on the mass production farms.
HOWEVER and obviously - this is a pet topic of mine and I get a little emotional about it.
So instead of opening up the door to sin all over everyone in here I'm excusing myself from the discussion.
I know that on hog farms we clip the cheek teeth of pigs so when they grow up they don't pose a danger to people or other hogs.
I think a similar reason is given for poultry.
That being said, I respect your choice to bow out, but I wish you would stick around because I think there is a reasonable middle ground to be considered.
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/15/2008 4:18:32 PM
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Jhud
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And I promise won't be mean - we probably agree more than disagree on this issue, though I think our approach would be different.
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/15/2008 4:20:00 PM
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ffbruce
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I grew up on a farm, farmed after college, and my father still farms - even though he's in his 70s. Also, my brother manages a rather large Farmland Cooperative.
So...
I can assure you that the cattle my dad raises are NOT, in ANY way, mistreated. Even if he were not an animal lover, he's not stupid. And it would be a stupid farmer who would abuse and neglect his livestock. In addition, they are NOT pumped full of growth hormones, etc. They are not "caged" although he does keep them in a pasture and/or the cattle-yard.
As per crop yields and the land? Much of what results in better yields per acre lies in the use of hybrid seed stock. Farmers are now harvesting 200 bushels per acre of corn, instead of 25 (from early 1900s) and we are ALL seeing the benefits of that. Farmers are actually better now, than ever before, about being good stewards of the land. More knowledge, plus higher price per acre, enables them to do a better job.
This is another case where the American media has misled people. In addition, celebrities like Oprah have embraced ultra-environmentalism and veganism as a religion. Too many people are just buying and obeying it as though it's objective truth.
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/15/2008 4:27:49 PM
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doinkdom
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Oh, I wasn't concerned about y'all being mean or whatever...it's more about me getting a little too fired up.
Thank you for the encouragement to continue.
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/15/2008 4:54:28 PM
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doinkdom
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I do believe abuse exists and continues today...HOWEVER, I do not believe it is as widespread as it once was.
People are too educated today to lie down and let someone else tell them what to think. And no...not "everything" is a conspiracy.
For example and I have no idea if this is true today or not. But the FDA used to put their stamp of approval on beef that came from diseased cattle - cancer, open and oozing wounds, etc. and the animal did not have to be treated for it. I assume this does NOT happen today, although I wouldn't be surprised.
I do buy my poultry and eggs from a local farmer and I normally go to a local butcher for meat.
Course, I've been thinking about going back to being a vegan here lately, so maybe this will just make that choice a little easier since I'm forced to think about this all over again.
I do love me a good cheeseburger though 
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/15/2008 4:55:40 PM
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Leslie_JnJs_mom
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I wish I knew how to do all that chicken stuff myself, then I would be like my friends that goes and buys a ton of baby chicks. They raise them in a part of the back yard feeding them with organic chicken feed. Then when they are full grown they prepare them. I asked her once if she felt bad and she said no since they do not live much longer. She said the kids were sad one year so they let the kids keep a couple. That is how they found out that the chickens do not live long after they are full grown.
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/15/2008 5:04:52 PM
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doinkdom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Leslie_JnJs_mom
I wish I knew how to do all that chicken stuff myself, then I would be like my friends that goes and buys a ton of baby chicks. They raise them in a part of the back yard feeding them with organic chicken feed. Then when they are full grown they prepare them. I asked her once if she felt bad and she said no since they do not live much longer. She said the kids were sad one year so they let the kids keep a couple. That is how they found out that the chickens do not live long after they are full grown.
don't know why, but that just struck me as funny
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/15/2008 5:38:31 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
I only buy free range chickens (and we have our own free range eggs). I would not have it any other way. Both from the welfare point of view and the taste point of view. Free range chicken meat is tastier and much more succulent, and free range eggs have a lovely rich yellow yolk, rather than the insipid yolks produced by battery birds.
I have to say this is really th core of the issue; I think very few Americans know or care where there food comes from, much less how it is produced - as long as it is cheap and abundant. Until this changes, I don't expect agricultural practices will change much. In fact, they will probably move increasingly off shore where there is less regulation.
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/15/2008 6:09:16 PM
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Zhi
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I'm absolutely NOT saying it's okay to blatantly abuse animals. I think that cutting the beaks off chickens is pretty heinous, but I don't think it happens that often, especially nowadays. On the other hand, I *do* think that cutting off the spurs is a good idea, as is dehorning, both for the safety of the animal and the other animals in the herd or flock (we had a goat almost die because she had not been dehorned as a kid, and she got her horns stuck in a fence. Fortunately we found her before she managed to break one off and bleed to death trying to get free, or become dehydrated). I'm just saying that "free range" is not necessarily as wonderful as people might pretend it is, and pointing out that domesticated animals are not going to act like animals in the wild, ever.
There is difficulty defining "abuse", though. Mostly due to a basic understanding of how domestic animals behave and what they're capable of, which means that some people define "abuse" as anything other than setting them free in the "wild" to go live their lives. At least until winter hits and they all freeze and starve to death. *sigh*
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/15/2008 6:28:48 PM
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stampinlady
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Doinkdom don't leave!!!! I've appreciated your posts tremdously.
Does anyone know if hog farmers really keep the pregnant pigs individual tight pens? I saw this on the show and it made me mad. I realize that these farmers make their living off of these animlas, but it seems that there is a better way. I know that land is not as abundant as it use to be, but surely somthing needs to be done so that these animals can get some exercise!!!!! The chickens couldn't even stretch their wings.
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"You don't need a New Year's Resolution, you need a Resurection! Dr. Tony Evans
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/15/2008 6:35:31 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Doinkdom don't leave!!!! I've appreciated your posts tremdously.
Does anyone know if hog farmers really keep the pregnant pigs individual tight pens? I saw this on the show and it made me mad. I realize that these farmers make their living off of these animlas, but it seems that there is a better way. I know that land is not as abundant as it use to be, but surely somthing needs to be done so that these animals can get some exercise!!!!! The chickens couldn't even stretch their wings.
Actually, pregnant sows and those with piglets are kept confined because they can roll over the baby pigs, and also because it makes delivery easier when a pig has to be pulled - which consists of reaching inside the sow and pulling out the piglet. You basically don't want her running around when you are doing this, trust me.
Actually, on a humorous note, one of the funniest stories I have ever heard was the story of someone who had never seen a hog up close who got recruited into helping pull pigs because she had small hands; her reaction when her hand got stuck was priceless.
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/15/2008 9:27:25 PM
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iluvatar
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I didn't pay any attention to the fate of chickens until I bought a 3+ lb pack of chicken breasts that had only 4 slabs of meat in it. I looked at a chicken breast as thick as my forearm and realized that's not right.
-Dan.
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/15/2008 10:20:39 PM
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MrFribbles
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For some reason, I'm reminded of a certain episode of Twilight Zone, which ends with the revelation that it was a cook book all along. Hee hee. Anyhow, as much as I would love to live in world that lets animals run free and be happy, the truth of the matter is we don't. We're a world that needs food - partially because we're a world that has gotten used to throwing food away, yes, but also because there are a lot of hungry people out there. And raising chicken and other livestock in a free-range setting is, as far as I know, just not doable. We don't have the space for it, given our population. And ultimately, (and this is where the Twilight Zone popped into my mind) if we're just going to kill and eat them anyway, I don't see what difference it makes. If we really cared about their lives and well-being, we wouldn't eat them at all.
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/16/2008 8:58:08 AM
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car2ner
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If it means anything to you, I live in GA and in north GA they hold the history of the Cherokee with respect. They also call the forced migration a travesty.
As far as free range goes, as with any other industry there are those who stand for quality and those who cut way too many corners. I've seen small farms can take care of animals well and yet some can't. Huge farms run with more control over the animals but that lowers our price. There is a good line somewhere but unless a person has spent time in the industry, there is a danger of romantic thinking....
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/16/2008 10:10:24 AM
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doinkdom
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I was thinking about posting some links to videos of abuse...but it's pretty graphic and not sure about how that would mix with TOS.
And, I believe the videos are a little older (like in the 80's) and hopefully with regulation they are no longer accurate portrayals. Which is the whole point of discussions like this...to become aware and then voice a public opinion to make changes.
holy smokes...did I just sound like politician or what?
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/16/2008 10:17:45 AM
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rcjames
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There are two reasons for caging chickens, one is to control what they eat (to keep the flavor of eggs consistant), and the second is to keep down on disease.
Free range chickens walk in, peck in, and eat their poop; this brings about the increased chance of infection and disease to the chicken (both externally and internally) and subsequently to the consumer of those free rangers.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/16/2008 10:20:03 AM
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agapetos
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quote:
I know it costs more to buy free range anything. Is it all about money or something else? Actually, the free range (and organic) eggs that I buy in the local health store are MUCH cheaper than the caged/barn/free range and organic eggs in any of the 3 big supermarket chains where I live ~ and they are local too, thus cutting down on air miles.
quote:
And, I believe the videos are a little older (like in the 80's) and hopefully with regulation they are no longer accurate portrayals. It may have changed, but the changes won't be that great.
What is good, here, is that many companies are now making products with free range eggs, instead of using eggs from caged birds.
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/16/2008 10:23:13 AM
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agapetos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
There are two reasons for caging chickens, one is to control what they eat (to keep the flavor of eggs consistant), and the second is to keep down on disease.
Free range chickens walk in, peck in, and eat their poop; this brings about the increased chance of infection and disease to the chicken (both externally and internally) and subsequently to the consumer of those free rangers.
Thanks
RC
Problem is, that when too many of anything is crammed together, disease spreads far more quickly than when given room to spread out.
I'm not sure how health it is to have dead birds in cages rotting next to live birds because they haven't been noticed and removed.
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RE: Is "Free Range" better or worse for us? - 10/16/2008 10:24:47 AM
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doinkdom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: agapetos
What is good, here, is that many companies are now making products with free range eggs, instead of using eggs from caged birds.
I've seen that disclaimer on a few products here in health food stores, but not the regular grocery stores.
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