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What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/14/2008 6:30:28 PM
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allisonbrett
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This is such a difficult post to write. I hope I can explain the situation clearly enough. I'm just not sure whether to sy anything or not.
My in-laws, a Christian family HS their two children (age 12 and 8). The parents are doing very little where their education is involved. There is no curriculum or program they follow, just what they parents can print off free online which tends to be more practice rather than instructional. They don't utilize their public library or use any other resources/outlets or avenues available. They haven't started school this year and asked what curriculum I used. I shared with them what I found worked well for us so I [pgave them some of my catalogs that have a lot of options, tons of resources, curriculum and programs that are available and affordable. I had hoped to encourage them to see all that is available today to help HS parents.
Now I know that not all HS parents need formal or structured materials. Some do quite well without it and do amazing jobs so please understand I'm not criticizing for that or even that they haven't ever been to a library. It's also that they don't put in the required hours per day or number of days per year the state requires and they don't follow the required standardized testing schedule the state requires either. In my state its used primarily for parents to gauge whether or not the student is on grade level (which could be a helpful tool).
I don't want to come off as being legalistic when it comes to state requirements but I'm concerned about these children who appear to be falling through the cracks and missing out on an education. Do I speak up for the children or keep my mouth shut for the parents?
I know scripture calls us to accountability and to each other in love but what to do?
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Allison's World My Blog
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/14/2008 7:19:11 PM
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sen10tious
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An Observation:
In your post, you did not speak up for the children; you complained about the parents.
You have already made your help available; that was good. Since they are already aware that you would be willing to help, then from here on in, if it is unsolicited and not life-threatening, keep your mouth shut.
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/14/2008 9:19:52 PM
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MrsDC
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I would tend to agree with Sen10tious (as I usually do!  ). Are these friends of yours or actually family members? (I didn't quite catch it in the OP, sorry!) The only reason it really makes a difference is that if they are family, and they live nearby, it would make it really easy to include them in field trips and activities you do. Invite the parents, too, or just offer to let the kids tag along.
Remember though, that if the situation were reversed you would probably be offended if they tried to force their opinions on you. Sharing your opinion is fine, but when you start suggesting that the parents aren't doing "enough" or doing it "right", you begin to step on toes. At that point, it won't matter if they are friends or relatives, feelings will get hurt.
It's hard when we see folks doing things which we feel are "incorrect" or "inefficient" -- especially when we have some level of experience in the given area. Different people have different educational focuses (foci?). I know that our personal focus has shifted a LOT in the past couple of years. Some families focus heavily on academics, some focus on character building, some take the more "aprentice-type" road and some just do a mixture of it "all". The cool thing about homeschooling is that we get to choose the method that suits our family the best -- even suits each individual child best.
What this family is doing for their kids may not be what you would do for your kids and I might not do for mine, but it apparently works for them. Until the mom throws up her hands and says, "I can't do this! Help!" you've done all you can -- and should -- do.
That's my 2 centavos. Want change?
-- Rebecca
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/14/2008 9:40:51 PM
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macokjc
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I'm not sure I agree. I think there comes a point when help is needed, even if it is not wanted. Not knowing either of these families, I couldn't say for sure. I know all families have the different learning methods, but if no learning is taking place; it puts the children at an extreme dis-advantage, and it puts the parents in jeopardy of losing their legal ability to homeschool, and it gives us all a bad name.
Are we related? We have this same problem in our family. When you have a seven year old in second grade who can't read (and it's not for lack of ability - she has begged her parents to teach her), who didn't get 1/2 through a math book, and who watches Nickalodean all day - that's a problem. I understand that some people don't think 7 is a crucial age for school. That's fine. The reading thing really breaks my heart. The problem is, there are 3 other children - 2 of them older, that don't get any schooling done either.
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/14/2008 9:56:58 PM
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his_chosen
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Gotta agree with sen10tious and MrsDC. You have offered your help. That is all you can do.
Just because they aren't using a boxed curric, text books or the library doesn't mean they aren't teaching their kids. There are plenty of ways for kids to learn.
We started school with ds4 when he was 6yo. He obviously wasn't ready, so we backed off. Even at 7 and 8yo he struggled. Then, suddenly, he "got" it. Math clicked. Reading clicked. He had been learning all along, but it was me reading to him as well as him picking things up from his big brothers. On the outside it looked like we weren't doing anything with him.
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You have a choice. You can throw in the towel or you can use it to wipe the sweat off your face.
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/15/2008 2:38:22 AM
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dramagal
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One thing caught my eye and that is the legal requirements, esp. for standardized testing.
Is it possible for you to, in a caring, coming-along-side sort of way, ask, "Did you know that homeschooled students have to be tested once a year?"
If she didn't, you can tell them, and offer referrals or even offer to do it together, if possible. (I say that because I've administrated ITBS to my kids and a few others.)
If they object, you can add, "What are you going to do when it pops up on the state computer that the kids weren't tested? You don't want the state forcing their kids back into public school."
sen10tious mentioned 'non-life threatening', but the state prosecuting under truancy laws or whatever your state has, is pretty serious.
Personally, I've valued having my students tested every year. It's found a couple of educational holes for us in the early years, and the kids enjoy analyzing their scores.
_____________________________
Who let the wild donkey go free? Job 39:5.
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/15/2008 7:55:25 AM
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Sunnymom
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They've opened the door by asking you for advice, but I'd not kick it open. This sounds like a 'wise as a serpent/harmless as a dove' moment. (Mtt. 10:16) If you take the right approach, you could be a real encouragement to them, plus you could get more information about what they are doing and perhaps find some method to their 'madness'.
The 8 yr old I'd not worry about so much, because I don't even start my kids in 'formal' schooling of any kind until they are about 8. But if your state has testing requirements, that could be a problem. They need to, as Christians, respect and comply with the laws of the land.
Maybe you could print some articles or send for a couple more catalogs- especially kind with self-directed curriculum. But again- I'd not make any judgments until you have a clearer picture of what they are/aren't doing.
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/15/2008 1:42:05 PM
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judii1
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quote:
who didn't get 1/2 through a math book,
I know I took this out of context BUT I just need to mention that we paid almost $300 per month for Ds to go to a Christian school last year. His class got halfway through their English book and didn't finish a chapter or two in their math book. The only book they did finish was the social studies book, which - according to the Abeka catalog- was a one semester class!
I would just leave the people alone unless they asked for help. They are your in-laws and you surely don't want them to become outlaws!
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What does 1 boy + 1 set of new clothes + 1 brother with a paintball gun = ?
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/15/2008 1:57:09 PM
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macokjc
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quote:
I know I took this out of context BUT I just need to mention that we paid almost $300 per month for Ds to go to a Christian school last year. His class got halfway through their English book and didn't finish a chapter or two in their math book. The only book they did finish was the social studies book, which - according to the Abeka catalog- was a one semester class!
You did take that out of context. Finishing a book is not important - it is the lack of learning. That is not appropriate in a homeschool or in a Christian school.
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/15/2008 2:23:18 PM
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allisonbrett
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I didn't realize that a lack of education could be life-threatening. It can be considered neglect by most states social services though.
I know we all want to believe that all homeschool parents are doing a great job regardless of what materials they use or don't use. Nice thought but not realisitic. Just as some students are graduating from high school functionally illiterate, some are also being homeschooled in the same way.
By sitting quiet and minding my own business I'm watching these children be robbed of an education and opportunities to be all they want to be in life. I'm not calling family services even though educational neglect is reason enough. I had hoped to find a positive way to encourage the parents to do right by their children and not grow up to be functionally illiterate and unemployable.
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/15/2008 3:04:20 PM
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shadowspring
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quote:
ORIGINAL: allisonbrett
I didn't realize that a lack of education could be life-threatening. It can be considered neglect by most states social services though.
I know we all want to believe that all homeschool parents are doing a great job regardless of what materials they use or don't use. Nice thought but not realisitic. Just as some students are graduating from high school functionally illiterate, some are also being homeschooled in the same way.
By sitting quiet and minding my own business I'm watching these children be robbed of an education and opportunities to be all they want to be in life. I'm not calling family services even though educational neglect is reason enough. I had hoped to find a positive way to encourage the parents to do right by their children and not grow up to be functionally illiterate and unemployable.
Good luck with that "educational neglect". It does not mean that each child will receive the best education tailored to the best of their ability to learn. If it meant that, no public school could remain in operation. That is an impossible-to-legislate standard.
It means, at best, that you are in compliance with state education laws- that your child attends a public or private school on a more-or-less regular basis.
It does not mean that you give them every support they need to succeed- nutritious breakfast, plenty of rest, help with homework, access to libraries or the web, all the school supplies they need. Law does not and can not mandate any of that. It does not even mean they will be learning. Kids flunk out of school all the time, and you can't charge the parents with educational neglect because of it.
For a home school family, I am quite sure it means that they are in compliance with the home school laws for that state. Each state is different in what it requires.
As far as I know, Florida is the only state that has the phrase "commensurate with his or her ability" and that is determined by a state certified teacher who has done a portfolio review.
Neither relatives nor social workers are qualified to make that determination. 
< Message edited by shadowspring -- 10/15/2008 3:46:25 PM >
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"Blessed is the man...whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law meditates day and night. He will be like a tree planted by rivers of water..." from Psalm 1
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/15/2008 3:21:30 PM
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shadowspring
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Positive ways a relative can encourage the education of any child:
* Give the children subscriptions to magazines that are of interest to that child. Kid's Discover is a great one for gifted children.
* Give books on tape for children as gifts. These are available from Scholastic Books clubs, I know. They have CDs or cassettes that can be played while the child reads along in the accompanying book.
* Invite children to the museum and/or library on a regular basis. When you read aloud to them, sound out words. Follow along the print with your finger as you read. Answer any and all questions pleasantly and enthusiastically.
* Invite the children to sleepover and have story-time each night they spend with you.
* Give Bob books and/or other early reader books as gifts in addition to the things they ask for at birthdays and other holiday or just because you want to give them! 
* Look for educational games at education stores and at places like Mindware on-line.
*** Write letters regularly! Probably the most fun and welcome of all these suggestions!
Kids love to get mail in their name. Write in big letters, use small words that follow along the lines of Bob books, and I'll bet the parents will be happy to help them read the letter. Make it a weekly occurrence, and make it FUN!
Ex: This cat has a big hat! (draw funny picture) Do you have a hat?
Include self -addressed, stamped envelope and a sheet of paper for your young relative to "reply". They can draw you a picture, dictate an answer to mom, or write their own response (please DO NOT criticize handwriting or spelling!) By the way, all three responses are legitimate learning tools for communication. 
So there's some ideas to get you going. Hope they help!
_____________________________
"Blessed is the man...whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law meditates day and night. He will be like a tree planted by rivers of water..." from Psalm 1
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/15/2008 3:52:05 PM
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macokjc
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quote:
Ploughing through a book is the worst measure of an education, in my opinion.
I am glad that we are all entitled to our opinion - and really, that is not what I said.
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/15/2008 4:00:11 PM
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macokjc
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quote:
As far as I know, Florida is the only state that has the phrase "commensurate with his or her ability" and that is determined by a state certified teacher who has done a portfolio review.
In PA, you have to show proof that learning has taken place, that progress has been made through a portfolio, through standardized testing, and through an evaluation with an appropriate evaluator.
I think that it is sweet that you wish to defend these people that you don't even know. Without parents strongly holding onto their rights, the ability to homeschool would be in jeopardy. However when you don't know these people, and I and AllisonBrett do (different people), please don't accuse us of not believing that learning can take place different ways. The bottom line is that many children fall through the cracks, in public school, in private school, and in homeschool. A good education is the responsibility of the parent, just as much as physical and emotional support. I am scared for my family members in more ways than you can imagine - and so are most members of the rest of my family. Nobody in my family is anti-homeschooling, in fact we have all been homeschooled or have homeschooled our children.
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/15/2008 5:48:29 PM
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Consecrated2God
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I think you should speak up. If they truly are not following their states laws, they need to be encouraged to be more vigilant in educating their children. Lazy homeschoolers are going to be putting our freedom to home-school in jeopardy if they aren't careful.
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/15/2008 6:47:14 PM
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shadowspring
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quote:
ORIGINAL: macokjc
quote:
As far as I know, Florida is the only state that has the phrase "commensurate with his or her ability" and that is determined by a state certified teacher who has done a portfolio review.
In PA, you have to show proof that learning has taken place, that progress has been made through a portfolio, through standardized testing, and through an evaluation with an appropriate evaluator.
I think that it is sweet that you wish to defend these people that you don't even know. Without parents strongly holding onto their rights, the ability to homeschool would be in jeopardy. However when you don't know these people, and I and AllisonBrett do (different people), please don't accuse us of not believing that learning can take place different ways. The bottom line is that many children fall through the cracks, in public school, in private school, and in homeschool. A good education is the responsibility of the parent, just as much as physical and emotional support. I am scared for my family members in more ways than you can imagine - and so are most members of the rest of my family. Nobody in my family is anti-homeschooling, in fact we have all been homeschooled or have homeschooled our children.
Sorry you felt that I did not believe you. The truth is just the opposite! What I wrote was good luck with the "educational neglect" angle-meaning as long as the children are eating, clothed, kept in relative safety and in compliance with state law, the government does not care if their grades are "A" or "D". Hopefully your state law does care if their test results are below the national average, but not all state laws are so written.
I apologize for the cynicism of that remark. It was definitely not directed at you but at the realities of our society and the many ways in which government, as a whole, can not help but to fail children.*
And while I was posting in defense of both the Christian school teacher and others being judged by how much use any one year's textbook(s) get(s), I was in no way defending the family mentioned in the OP!
*I have seen plenty of educational neglect, mostly in the lives of public schooled children, and it was not the public school's fault either. But the law can not get into the business of what one eats for breakfast, when one goes to bed, and which bills one chooses to pay first. Likewise, I do know of one home schooling family that *I* would consider is neglecting their child's education, but they are in compliance with state law so that is the end of that.
_____________________________
"Blessed is the man...whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law meditates day and night. He will be like a tree planted by rivers of water..." from Psalm 1
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/15/2008 8:05:21 PM
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cindybode
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From: Northwest PA
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Question - if those kids were in public school and obviously not learning, what would you do? Probably nothing, because you'd say that the kids are in school and it's a shame they're not gettting what they need, but it's not up to you. Why is it different because they're homeschooled?
My point is that this is really up to their parents. Yeah, you feel for the kids, but in the end it's the parent's right and responsibility to make decisions about their education, not yours. Many people would look at my family and think we weren't teaching our kids, but they'd be wrong. We just don't do it the way a lot of other people do it. I wouldn't appreciate people stepping in and trying to "help" unless I asked for it.
Having said that, I'd agree that if you can invite the kids along on field trips, write letters to them, etc. that would be a wonderful thing.
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If you lock in any creature, from rats to chickens to pigs to people, 10 to 30 or more in a box and force feed them you'll create little monsters. Confinement Education School Operations (CESOs) just don't compare to naturally pastured free-ranged kids.
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/15/2008 8:33:25 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 5151
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quote:
Question - if those kids were in public school and obviously not learning, what would you do? Probably nothing, because you'd say that the kids are in school and it's a shame they're not getting what they need, but it's not up to you. Why is it different because they're homeschooled?
I think the difference is that homeschoolers can easily lose their freedoms if parents stop educating them. We've made tremendous progress in fighting for our right to educate our own children, but most of our evidence is that homeschooling works. Homeschool children have been tested, and their scores so far have been better than their public schooled kids. No one can argue with success.
I, too, believe that it's a parent's responsibility to educate their children, and if you want to know what I really think, I don't even agree with compulsory school laws. I think parents should have the right to not educate their children if they don't want to. But that's not the way it is, and we homeschoolers have got to be vigilant in providing a quality education to our children. If our scores begin to slip, we aren't going to have success on our side anymore.
Public schools don't have to worry about losing their freedom to educate children. They don't even have to worry about losing funding. But we homeschoolers have a lot to lose if we slack off.
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Bonky
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/15/2008 9:15:28 PM
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cindybode
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From: Northwest PA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
Question - if those kids were in public school and obviously not learning, what would you do? Probably nothing, because you'd say that the kids are in school and it's a shame they're not getting what they need, but it's not up to you. Why is it different because they're homeschooled?
I think the difference is that homeschoolers can easily lose their freedoms if parents stop educating them.
That's true, Lisa, but it still isn't up to the OP to make sure it happens for those kids.
_____________________________
If you lock in any creature, from rats to chickens to pigs to people, 10 to 30 or more in a box and force feed them you'll create little monsters. Confinement Education School Operations (CESOs) just don't compare to naturally pastured free-ranged kids.
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/16/2008 7:09:12 AM
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Consecrated2God
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quote:
That's true, Lisa, but it still isn't up to the OP to make sure it happens for those kids.
I know she can't make sure the parents do what they are supposed to do, but if the choice is between speaking up or remaining quiet, my vote is to speak up.
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Bonky
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/16/2008 10:06:19 AM
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Auben
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There's nothing inherently wrong with either speaking up or being quiet.
In this kind of situation I find that asking questions, in a genuinely interested and non-judging way, can help you understand your friend/family member's point of view and maybe make them think about what they're doing a little more.
For instance,
"What are you doing for homeschooling this week? We're doing XYZ."
"Sometimes I find we get tired and take a few days off. How do you handle that in your schedule?"
"What kind of system are you using for State compliance?...Are you worried about the State interfering?"
"What is X's favorite subject? I find that (insert name of your child) really enjoys (insert subject) and likes the new book we got."
"Are you going to the curriculum fair? Would you come with me? It's nice to have someone to walk around with."
"Hey, we're going to the library...want to meet there?"
"What's the one thing you want your children to get out of homeschooling?"
I find that the subtle peer pressure of just being active yourself and keeping the discussion alive seems to help ignite other people to their own level. I like Shadowspring's suggestions as well. Most of the time this is a question of motivation. It's easy for people to get into a rut.
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Tamara
~Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time~
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RE: What to do? Speak up or remain quiet - 10/22/2008 2:10:06 PM
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seekingmyLord
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I am all for do homeschooling right, because if you do it wrong, it may not be a "right" anymore.
However...
I don't think homeschooling parents should be policing other homeschooling parents either.
I would be praying that the Lord resolve the problem if this family is not doing as they should according to His will. Personally, I would only get involved if He gave me a clear message that I should and how I should do it.
Otherwise...
My style of homeschooling is quite different than any of my friends and, of course, I think my style is the best, but that does not mean that I also believe that everyone should do it my way. Besides, I find that if I am doing all that I should be doing with my own homeschooling, I really don't have the time to look at how someone else is doing theirs.
As to the children not having a proper education, should that really be the case, it is sad but then most of the public school children do not have a proper education and yet many survive it--most homeschooling parents are proof of that. There is always the potential of a child overcoming a lack of education.
< Message edited by seekingmyLord -- 10/22/2008 2:23:47 PM >
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