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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 1:42:15 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
If I could do it all over again, I wouldn't have made the same sacrifices. I'd be happy to earn less.
But you should not force the individual who "did sacrifice" to pay more in taxes than you did. That person needs to be able to savor the fruits of their reward whatever that reward may be.
I should not force you to give up time with your children and no one should force me to give up my money because they "chose" to spend more time at home.
I disagree. If you earn more money, you pay more taxes. Period.
I'm good with that, and like you I pay a healthy 6-figure amount of tax. Anyone who wants to pay less in taxes is welcome to earn less if they choose. Most of the people I know in my bracket just aren't willing to make that choice.
Everything has a cost. Including the gathering of wealth.
I consider paying taxes a priviledge - you have to earn a lot to pay a lot.
That said, the economist in me much prefers a tax on consumption (sales tax, VAT, etc.) than on income creation or wealth. I like the incentives better. A sales tax encourages savings and work while an income tax encourages spending and discourages work. Seems a bit perverse to me.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/16/2008 12:17:19 AM
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crankius
Posts: 4504
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
That said, the economist in me much prefers a tax on consumption (sales tax, VAT, etc.) than on income creation or wealth. I like the incentives better. A sales tax encourages savings and work while an income tax encourages spending and discourages work. Seems a bit perverse to me.
I agree that a consumption tax would be better. I think it is the most moral tax.
If we MUST have an income tax, the percentage rate should be the same for everyone, in my opinion.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/16/2008 12:36:19 AM
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H2ODoc
Posts: 4
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quote:
I disagree. If you earn more money, you pay more taxes. Period.
I doubt anyone would disagree with this generally. But the tax percentage should be the same. I see no just reason why the state should confiscate a greater percentage of a person's income simply because he earns more. I realize that the typical political line is "well, he can afford it, so he should pay more" This is Marxist hogwash. It is immoral for the state to be deciding which citizen should be taxed at a high rate and which at a low. Furthermore, it violates one of the most basic principles of a free society: equal protection under the law.
quote:
I consider paying taxes a priviledge - you have to earn a lot to pay a lot.
I do not consider having my blood, sweat, toil, and tears confiscated by the state a privilege.
quote:
That said, the economist in me much prefers a tax on consumption (sales tax, VAT, etc.) than on income creation or wealth. I like the incentives better. A sales tax encourages savings and work while an income tax encourages spending and discourages work. Seems a bit perverse to me.
I agree wholeheartedly. Thomas Jefferson favored the consumption tax: it is inherently self-regulating.
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/16/2008 8:08:42 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
I disagree. If you earn more money, you pay more taxes. Period
And the welfare crowd agrees with you! As did Karl Marx “From those according to their ability, to those according to their need” (or in the case of my nieghborhood to our "want")
quote:
Anyone who wants to pay less in taxes is welcome to earn less if they choose.
God told me my "first priority" is to spread the gospel message. If I learn less than I am not going to be able to carry out that "top priority" of mine as well as I could and I know it. I would be dishonoring God in my "lack of prudence".
Anyone who wants to pay more to Uncle Sam is FREE to do so. I don't see you jumping up sending in MORE than you owe.
If I earn less than I have less to give to my truly disabled neighbor who is unable to survive on what the gov. is willing to give them. I am unable to give to meals on wheels. I am unable to support the Lords work overseas guaranteeing missionaries and their families money, retirement and medical care. If I earn less then I am unable to donate to our local college money to guarantee tuition for people who "want" and "deserve" a chance at a FREE college education.
If "I" worked, sacrificed, saved and earned the money please don't come tell me that the government knows more about the "needs" of my area than I do. They don't. If they did the 80 somthing households in my area would NOT bet getting welfare from the gov. to do drugs, drink, play on the computer and neglect their children. And the "ONE" truly disabled person on my road would have no worrys about paying the new taxes our local gov. has imposed on here. (because I earn more money I am taking it upon my self (because it's my Christian duty) to pay that tax for her.
quote:
Everything has a cost. Including the gathering of wealth.
God's word tells me there is "profit" in all "labor".
quote:
I consider paying taxes a priviledge - you have to earn a lot to pay a lot.
Key works "YOU have to earn".....
I also don't believe you truly view it as a priviledge otherwise you would be sending in a tens of thousands more each year just for "fun".
quote:
That said, the economist in me much prefers a tax on consumption (sales tax, VAT, etc.) than on income creation or wealth. I like the incentives better. A sales tax encourages savings and work while an income tax encourages spending and discourages work. Seems a bit perverse to me.
I have always been against this idea because I knew it would be extremely profitable for "me". However I have begun to change my opinion. Because so many people are currently thinking that it's someone elses responsibility to "pay for them" I am now for what is it??? fair tax?
If Noshow is reading this he knows the tax because I went against him on it. I am still against me and other business owners being the nationals tax collectors. I believe it's putting too much on us.
< Message edited by P31W -- 10/16/2008 8:30:24 AM >
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/16/2008 10:26:35 AM
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NoShow
Posts: 461
Joined: 5/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
If Noshow is reading this he knows the tax because I went against him on it. I am still against me and other business owners being the nationals tax collectors. I believe it's putting too much on us.
Is this because of the way Scripture portrays the "tax collector" or is it because you don't want to take on the task ("hey! It's not my job!!!")?
I remember our discussion on this. And I still say, "we" (business people) would do a better job than the government is currently doing.
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/16/2008 11:12:31 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
Is this because of the way Scripture portrays the "tax collector" or is it because you don't want to take on the task ("hey! It's not my job!!!")?
It has nothing to do with scripture. It has to do with my experience with the large number of people who want to currently pay us cash under the table inorder to get out of paying "just 7%" sales tax. I don't want that preasure or the constant federal audit headaches.
If "I" make a mistake then it would probably cost us a lot of money. I have paid my ignornace dues with the state tax commission. I can just imagine what the ingorance dues would be if I collected the federal gov.'s taxes.
quote:
I remember our discussion on this. And I still say, "we" (business people) would do a better job than the government is currently doing.
I agree with you on that. The government is not very good at doing anything more than what I see God telling it to do.
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/16/2008 12:27:47 PM
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beeper
Posts: 22
Joined: 4/20/2005
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Hi, P31. Haven't posted in a long time. I'm glad you are still here talking sense.
The answer to what tax scheme you'd like is the cash flow tax.
You are right about complance issues. The major drawback for a "Fair Tax" type of point of sale (POS) tax is under the table sales. Research suggests that anytime a POS gets above 12-13%, complance becomes a major problem
Yet, consumption taxes are, according to public finance theory, superior to income taxes.
So, what we should have is a cash flow tax.
It would be easy. All a person's income + all their withdraws from any type of savings or investments would be subject to tax. All a person's contributions to any type of savings or investment would be deducted from their taxable income.
This is functionally equal to a consumption tax. Money is taxed as it is spent, not as it is earned.
The beauty of this tax plan is that it could be fine tuned to be as progressive as the political process wanted it to be. (You still could have different rates for differently levels of taxable consumption.)
You get the efficiency of a consumption tax without any of the complance issues, and you still leave society with the ability to specifically target a desired level of progressivity, something that was somewhat lacking in the traditional POS cosusmption tax.
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/16/2008 3:23:29 PM
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lthames
Posts: 2
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Harvie
P31W....
We spent our economic stimulus money on a vacation to Alaska. Since you paid for it, did you want to see pictures?
:: grins and ducks for cover! ::
ROTFLMHO
(rolling on the floor laughing my head off)
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/16/2008 3:29:48 PM
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torath
Posts: 14
Joined: 2/20/2008
Status: offline
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First I want to say thanks to all the posters, this is the first 3 page thread I have seen the remained peaceful and intelligent throughout.
P31W,
Just so you know where I am, I know I am just a grunt. I work 60 hours a week at a factory to provide for my family. I am trying school this year, but not sure if I can handle the load with a newborn and working that much. I have one of the better jobs in the factory environment. I have an associates degree which got me that job.
I do not know what your take home is from the businesses you own. I do agree there is a huge problem with the tax system for true small businesses.
I have a friend who owns a very small business(he is the only employee) of a retail gaming store. If he opens a second store like he wants and hires a whopping 2 employees he will be over the $250,000 "you are rich" level. But his take home would be $35,000 tops, since his mark up on merchandise is about 15-30%. So if you are in that area, I totally agree with you, the system sucks.
But I am looking at the president of the billion dollar manufacturing corporation I work for who probably pays about the same tax dollars as the small business owner. Those are the people I do not feel bad for if they get taxed more. He makes millions and not because he works hard, but because I work hard and he is talking about laying off 25% of our work force because of the economy. If the people in charge of billion dollar corps. will not share the money they make, then yes, tax the **** out of them or do something. I do not agree with the communist "equal distribution of wealth" but there is not reason for an individual who is an employee of a company to make 10-15 million a year and be able to cut benefits and jobs from the $14-$20 an hour grunts. He does not own the company, but works for it as do the 12 VP's we have making a few mill a year (total with pay, incentives, bonuses, stock, etc.) The top is the problem for hoarding money.
Also I agree with the welfare system being horrible. We reward people for not working. When I was a contractor, I would get "layed off" at the end of a working season and could get unemployment for 3-4 months. I got more money to sit at home from the government than if I would have found a part time job. I looked but I was getting $353 a week to sit at home. How can I say "no thanks, I will go work for $200 a week at a part time job"? BTW my field is very specialized, I cannot find a temp job with any of the skills I have.
Our system needs fixed, the insanely rich need to respect the ones who made them the money. Money only needs to hit the ones (really disabled) who need it or to help the rest find work.
Sorry for the rambling. I just thought the middle class, $35-$64k, people should chime in.
P.S. Oh and I hate the stimulus package, it was poorly done did reward many who do not work, and I think the $700 billion bail out is rewarding the greedy banks and stupid/greedy people living above their means. I bought a small house I could afford so now I am stuck in it and have to watch a guy working at BK live in a $325,000 mansion(by comparison to mine ;) he cannot afford but the gov. wants to "help him out".
_____________________________
"Shepherd Book always used to say, if you can't do something smart, do something right."
-Jayne Cobb
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/16/2008 3:50:33 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4252
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
Status: offline
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Isn't it our elected officials who make these tax laws and so forth? I never got a call about what I thought...I got a notice of what they already decided to do.
So, if anyone doesn't like that I got a check for my less than $30K a year household income, call 1-800-mydumbgov and tell them all about it. 
If I had a voting choice about every particular bill or piece of legislation (and I do when it comes to voting for who is in office making these decisions) then I would make that vote count against the stimulus.
But they never asked.
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/16/2008 5:04:09 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 5097
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
Status: offline
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quote:
If I had a voting choice about every particular bill or piece of legislation (and I do when it comes to voting for who is in office making these decisions) then I would make that vote count against the stimulus.
But they never asked.
You do still have a voice, and you can make it heard by contacting your state reps when a major bill is going up for vote. There were several that changed their vote on the bailout package after hearing how the people they are representing felt about the issue.
I always make sure to call or email, especially when it's something I'm passionate about. We know our state reps because of our political involvement and they have said to spread the word that they LIKE to hear from people.
_____________________________
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/17/2008 8:26:37 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
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Hey Beeper!!!!
Hang around. We have some economist on the forum who talk over my head. I need you to explain what they are saying to me.
I just love it when you confirm what I say with fancy words and research.
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/17/2008 10:16:33 AM
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beeper
Posts: 22
Joined: 4/20/2005
Status: offline
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As to the discussed second stimulus package, it will be a "democratic" style stimulus which does not resemble the checks mailed out this year.
It would feature things like unemployment benefit extension, increases in various tax subsidies for energy conservation, increased disaster relief, hand outs to auto makers...that kind of stuff.
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/17/2008 10:47:34 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
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Would we be borrowing that money from China too or would we just print some more?
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/17/2008 11:17:19 AM
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beeper
Posts: 22
Joined: 4/20/2005
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Can't we do both?
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/29/2008 5:51:56 AM
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RamiRedeemed
Posts: 1585
Joined: 10/13/2008
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P31W- It seems as though your amount of money is a big problem for you. I think I could solve it.
_____________________________
Some people talk because they have something to say.
Others talk because they have to say something.
-------------------------------
ramireconciled.blogspot.com
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/29/2008 7:59:44 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
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You will have to go to the back of the line and wait your turn. It is only fair.
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/29/2008 9:29:05 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
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Cute Rhippie,
quote:
I disagree. If you earn more money, you pay more taxes. Period.
I'm good with that, and like you I pay a healthy 6-figure amount of tax. Anyone who wants to pay less in taxes is welcome to earn less if they choose. Most of the people I know in my bracket just aren't willing to make that choice.
Am I thinking of someone else or isn't it you who said you didn't have a job?
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/29/2008 9:39:30 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1964
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
And the welfare crowd agrees with you! As did Karl Marx “From those according to their ability, to those according to their need” (or in the case of my nieghborhood to our "want")
Hmmm, then apparently Karl Marx agrees with Adam Smith on this one; Smith argued for a progressive tax structure. Guess the Father of Capitalism is a darned Commie, too!
quote:
If I earn less than I have less to give to my truly disabled neighbor who is unable to survive on what the gov. is willing to give them. I am unable to give to meals on wheels. I am unable to support the Lords work overseas guaranteeing missionaries and their families money, retirement and medical care. If I earn less then I am unable to donate to our local college money to guarantee tuition for people who "want" and "deserve" a chance at a FREE college education.
Well, you and the church aren't doing this well enough, and if you agree that a moral society does these things, then maybe this notion of government that only enforces contracts and maintains order doesn't make so much sense.
quote:
I have always been against this idea because I knew it would be extremely profitable for "me". However I have begun to change my opinion. Because so many people are currently thinking that it's someone elses responsibility to "pay for them" I am now for what is it??? fair tax?
If Noshow is reading this he knows the tax because I went against him on it. I am still against me and other business owners being the nationals tax collectors. I believe it's putting too much on us.
Don't you already collect taxes for the state?
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/29/2008 9:54:50 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Well, you and the church aren't doing this well enough,
You don't know a thing about my church. We have no needy person among us. We "live" Acts 4. For us it's the norm. It was Jesus who said we would always have the poor among us. Never is the Chruch commanded to even "try" to do away with poverty. We are to first and foremost spend our efforts telling others about Christ. Then we are commanded to "help care for" the needy. We are not commanded to use the government to force "lost people" to provide for "our needs or the needs of our own families".
Can you provide for me a passage that says Christains are to force the "lost world" to provide for the needs of a Christian and/or the needs of those in their church or their own Christian family?
quote:
Don't you already collect taxes for the state?
Yes not only for my state but a couple others as well. Most people call it sales tax. One audit took them 3 months to complete. I am often audited so I "do" understand the load put on the backs of businesses. I "do" understand the "added cost" to the business owner.
I am also pretty sure that if I became a tax collector for the Federal Government we would have to hire someone "just" to handle that stuff. Meaning we would have to raise the prices of the goods we offer for sale to the general public.
< Message edited by P31W -- 10/29/2008 10:17:15 AM >
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/29/2008 10:53:29 AM
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RamiRedeemed
Posts: 1585
Joined: 10/13/2008
Status: offline
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Awhh P3, come on. You said you were supporting military families and I want you to know that I have bills that I cannot pay. Can't I help you with your 'too much money' problem?
_____________________________
Some people talk because they have something to say.
Others talk because they have to say something.
-------------------------------
ramireconciled.blogspot.com
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