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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/14/2008 10:42:04 PM
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GroupW
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
The bailout package I believe will cost each of us who pays taxes 32K? Is that correct. Oh how some of us "wish" that we only had to pay 28K plus 32K this year and that would be all that was expected/demanded out of us. I would cut the check today if Uncle Sam promised to leave me along until next year.
That sounds right only if you assume that the government pays money for assets that have no value. The $700 billion in reality is buying something that based on all discussions I've read has a non-zero value to it.
Based on some numbers I've seen, it's easily possible for the government to actually get paid back it's invested dollars plus a profit equal to an annual return of something in the low to mid teens.
There's precedent to believe the government won't lose all $700 billion. The Reconstruction Finance Corp established in 1932 as part of the rescue package back then was very similar in some respects and roughly broke even. The government invested about $9 billion in various banks around the country, roughly equivalent to $200 billion in current dollars.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 5:53:41 AM
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Random
Posts: 1039
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Zipperhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
That sounds right only if you assume that the government pays money for assets that have no value. The $700 billion in reality is buying something that based on all discussions I've read has a non-zero value to it.
Based on some numbers I've seen, it's easily possible for the government to actually get paid back it's invested dollars plus a profit equal to an annual return of something in the low to mid teens.
I certainly agree that the entire $700B is not a cost, as some of it will be recouped. I would not go so far as to say we will make a profit, though. I suppose it's possible, but unlikely in my view.
If banks were willing to sell these things, they would already be doing so. The fact that they are not selling is some evidence that the owners want more than the market thinks they are worth, so the government is going to have to pay more to buy them.
In addition, you have to factor interest on the $700B, because that is also a cost to taxpayers.
Finally, on a smaller scale, just running this program costs the government money, and that has to be reflected as well.
So, I can see breaking even, or not losing much, but I don't see big gains.
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"That which has always been accepted by everyone, everywhere, is almost certain to be false." -- Valery
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 8:03:47 AM
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P31W
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Guys,
Let's change our termonology here. Instead of using the term "government". Let's be a little more honest here and use the words "about half the taxpayers are going to have to buy up or spend or invest"......
quote:
In addition, you have to factor interest on the $700B, because that is also a cost to taxpayers.
Because the bottom fifty percent of the taxpayers (back in 2006) only paid in 2.9% of taxes collected it would be fair to say that interest on the $700B is going to cost half of us taxpayers.......the other half are having to be subdized by our tax dollars just to live in this country.
If Obama comes into office and does only half of what he suggest then the half of us paying will be reduced even more. Probably only one out of four of us will be paying all these bills.
I believe it's time we get honest with people. Those of us who are forced to pay MUCH MORE than our fair share to live in this country need to stand up for "our right"......
Tell those with a hand out to go pick up a shovel and go to work to provide for their own families...
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 8:07:44 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Well, the stimulus package really helped my family at the time. If it was an 'advance' on our 2008 refund, oh well. It's done, people cashed the checks and spent the money, no sense in complaining about it now.
Yesterday after I left the forum I was in a meeting with local auditors from the tax commission over one of our businesses. If we are taxed at the new higher rate proposed I will be forced in that business to let an employee go.
What do I tell him and his family? Oh well?
Maybe it's someone in your own family I have to give the pink slip to?
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 8:40:58 AM
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joannepir
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I don't think you stand for the majority of the people. Most people in the lower economic community where I live welcomed the stimulus package.
< Message edited by joannepir -- 10/15/2008 9:06:14 AM >
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 9:19:10 AM
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P31W
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1 out of every 4 taxpayers pay 86% plus of the individual income tax collected in this country.
(40% of this countries population don't even pay taxes)
You are correct. For everyone one of me there are three of you taking from my pocket.
quote:
I don't think you stand for the majority of the people. Most people in the lower economic community where I live welcomed the stimulus package.
Of course they love the handout. Most people on welfare like the handout. Most people like to get and not give.
When a country has more takers than givers (makers) there is a problem.
< Message edited by P31W -- 10/15/2008 9:29:13 AM >
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 12:27:34 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
Well, the stimulus package really helped my family at the time. If it was an 'advance' on our 2008 refund, oh well. It's done, people cashed the checks and spent the money, no sense in complaining about it now.
Yesterday after I left the forum I was in a meeting with local auditors from the tax commission over one of our businesses. If we are taxed at the new higher rate proposed I will be forced in that business to let an employee go.
What do I tell him and his family? Oh well?
Maybe it's someone in your own family I have to give the pink slip to?
Is that a local tax issue or federal? Seems to me that you should have a bit more flexibility than that. I'd be tempted to find a better tax accountant.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 12:30:55 PM
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GroupW
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
1 out of every 4 taxpayers pay 86% plus of the individual income tax collected in this country.
(40% of this countries population don't even pay taxes)
You are correct. For everyone one of me there are three of you taking from my pocket.
quote:
I don't think you stand for the majority of the people. Most people in the lower economic community where I live welcomed the stimulus package.
Of course they love the handout. Most people on welfare like the handout. Most people like to get and not give.
When a country has more takers than givers (makers) there is a problem.
I'm probably in your same tax bracket. Personally, I'd rather pay out more than my fair share than ask someone making $60k a year to pony up for a similar percentage. I can shell out 10-15k more a year and it doesn't really impact my standard of living. Someone making less can't shell out even 10% of that without it making a material difference in what they can afford to do.
I wouldn't think twice about voting for a higher marginal tax rate for people like me. I was doing just fine before Bush II gave me a tax cut that I neither wanted nor needed.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 12:31:52 PM
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P31W
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Local tax.
Obama is not the only one trying to pull money out of our pockets. Property tax on businesses have sky rocketed and now inventory tax is going up. (yep we paid tax on that inventory and we are being taxed again) Our taxes on our business vehicles has gone us as well. These are things we have no control over and have a lot to do with our bottom line profitability. WorkComp is also gone up although not a tax it's manditory. now it's over $25.oo per $100.00 of payroll. Unemployment went up a small amount but that's just another kick at the bottom line.
For some reason everyone says tax someone else. Just don't tax me. "Give me a new public park and we want the school to pay for a field trip for out kids. Let the business owners figure out how to pay for these things "we" want. "
I realize most people are clueless when it comes to business. But I do expect a little more common sense from the general public when it comes to wanting more and more and paying in less and less of their own money. Public Schools and parents are evidently doing a terrible job in training their children who are now adults.
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 12:37:46 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Local tax.
Obama is not the only one trying to pull money out of our pockets. Property tax on businesses have sky rocketed and now inventory tax is going up. (yep we paid tax on that inventory and we are being taxed again) Our taxes on our business vehicles has gone us as well. These are things we have no control over and have a lot to do with our bottom line profitability. WorkComp is also gone up although not a tax it's manditory. now it's over $25.oo per $100.00 of payroll. Unemployment went up a small amount but that's just another kick at the bottom line.
For some reason everyone says tax someone else. Just don't tax me. "Give me a new public park and we want the school to pay for a field trip for out kids. Let the business owners figure out how to pay for these things "we" want. "
I realize most people are clueless when it comes to business. But I do expect a little more common sense from the general public when it comes to wanting more and more and paying in less and less of their own money.
LOL - we're in a financial/banking crisis now because the best and brightest minds along with the general public thought interest only loans on homes people couldn't afford to people who didn't want to tell anyone how much money they actually earned were a swell idea.
I can empathize with wanting a little more common sense. I suspect, though, that we're both doomed to disappointment there.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 12:39:07 PM
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P31W
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quote:
I'm probably in your same tax bracket. Personally, I'd rather pay out more than my fair share than ask someone making $60k a year to pony up for a similar percentage. I can shell out 10-15k more a year and it doesn't really impact my standard of living. Someone making less can't shell out even 10% of that without it making a material difference in what they can afford to do.
I wouldn't think twice about voting for a higher marginal tax rate for people like me. I was doing just fine before Bush II gave me a tax cut that I neither wanted nor needed.
For me money is a sign of what you are doing. How well you work, how much you work and how well you have managed your time, resources and talents in the past.
I want to see people taxed on their "free time". I want to see people taxed on their visits to the dog vet, nail salon, and the like.
People who are wasteful should pay more in taxes than those who are frugal, resourceful, prudent and skillful. Free public school education for many people was a waste of money. They should have to suffer for that not those kids who took advantage of the education offered them.
See we put in 12 hours work days. Husband and wife. That's a 24 work day between the two of us. Now why should I be taxed more than the man whose wife stays at home with the kids and only works 8 hrs per day then pops the top on a beer rather than going in like we do after the 12 hours and working on a financial plan, checking our investments, making calls to insure work for tomorrow and catching up on how each business is doing?
Why should I be taxed for working this much when the man who chooses to work less is given a free ride?
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 12:43:25 PM
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P31W
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quote:
shell out 10-15k more a year
Our property taxes went up more than that. 
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 12:50:20 PM
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crankius
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quote:
I'm probably in your same tax bracket. Personally, I'd rather pay out more than my fair share than ask someone making $60k a year to pony up for a similar percentage. I can shell out 10-15k more a year and it doesn't really impact my standard of living. Someone making less can't shell out even 10% of that without it making a material difference in what they can afford to do.
I wouldn't think twice about voting for a higher marginal tax rate for people like me. I was doing just fine before Bush II gave me a tax cut that I neither wanted nor needed.
What it means for businesses like us, is we don't hire that extra person. It amounts to less money to fund employees. Higher taxes (local and/or federal) have a real impact from the top down.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 12:50:58 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
I'm probably in your same tax bracket. Personally, I'd rather pay out more than my fair share than ask someone making $60k a year to pony up for a similar percentage. I can shell out 10-15k more a year and it doesn't really impact my standard of living. Someone making less can't shell out even 10% of that without it making a material difference in what they can afford to do.
I wouldn't think twice about voting for a higher marginal tax rate for people like me. I was doing just fine before Bush II gave me a tax cut that I neither wanted nor needed.
For me money is a sign of what you are doing. How well you work, how much you work and how well you have managed your time, resources and talents in the past.
I want to see people taxed on their "free time". I want to see people taxed on their visits to the dog vet, nail salon, and the like.
People who are wasteful should pay more in taxes than those who are frugal, resourceful, prudent and skillful. Free public school education for many people was a waste of money. They should have to suffer for that not those kids who took advantage of the education offered them.
See we put in 12 hours work days. Husband and wife. That's a 24 work day between the two of us. Now why should I be taxed more than the man whose wife stays at home with the kids and only works 8 hrs per day then pops the top on a beer rather than going in like we do after the 12 hours and working on a financial plan, checking our investments, making calls to insure work for tomorrow and catching up on how each business is doing?
Why should I be taxed for working this much when the man who chooses to work less is given a free ride?
Here's an offsetting question -
I'm talking with several people right now about raising an investment fund and managing it for them. It would pay me a stupid amount of money for what is essentially a part time job.
Am I being wasteful of my time by not working more, or am I being responsible with my time be setting it aside to be with my family?
You're getting the reward of your labor. Working 12 hour days is a choice you make to earn more money. More money means more taxes.
Most of the guys that work 8 hr days earn enough to pay the bills. They could get a second job, but frankly it's just not worth the time away from family. I think those guys are making an admirable choice to scale back on their standard of living in exchange for family time.
I wish I had done that earlier in my career.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 12:54:56 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
I'm probably in your same tax bracket. Personally, I'd rather pay out more than my fair share than ask someone making $60k a year to pony up for a similar percentage. I can shell out 10-15k more a year and it doesn't really impact my standard of living. Someone making less can't shell out even 10% of that without it making a material difference in what they can afford to do.
I wouldn't think twice about voting for a higher marginal tax rate for people like me. I was doing just fine before Bush II gave me a tax cut that I neither wanted nor needed.
What it means for businesses like us, is we don't hire that extra person. It amounts to less money to fund employees. Higher taxes (local and/or federal) have a real impact from the top down.
As an economist by training, I get that. Just looking at what's been proposed at the federal level however, there isn't that much evidence that the changes in the proposed marginal rates impact economic behavior all that much. Certainly, at rates we had at the beginning of the Reagan administration, those impacts are meaningful. We're talking fairly minor federal level changes here though, taking them back to what we had during the Clinton administration.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 1:00:50 PM
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GroupW
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
For me money is a sign of what you are doing. How well you work, how much you work and how well you have managed your time, resources and talents in the past.
Just a quick thought - money CAN be a sign of what you're doing. On the other hand, many times it is not. Is there any reason that I should get paid 10 times what my wife was getting paid as a seasoned educator? She worked every bit as hard as me and was every bit as respected in her chosen career. She chose to earn less money to work in a field that she loved. I'm just lucky to love a field that pays better!
I've also made choices in my career to be paid less than many that are in my same position. I could have moved to NYC and earned truly insane amounts of money working for a Wall Street firm. I've turned down at least one job at that level. I don't regret it a bit. Getting to the office at 8am and coming home at 10p or later every day isn't a life that I wanted.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 1:18:21 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
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quote:
Here's an offsetting question -
I'm talking with several people right now about raising an investment fund and managing it for them. It would pay me a stupid amount of money for what is essentially a part time job. Am I being wasteful of my time by not working more, or am I being responsible with my time be setting it aside to be with my family?
NO this goes right in line with what I am saying. Evidently you have done what it takes "in the past" to put yourself in this position. No one unless they are fools would hire you to manage their investments unless you have some past record. (they may be fools but if you lose the money so goes your future income and reputation)
I notice people complain about "doctors" and what they earn. Every doctor I know worked "harder" in school all 12 years than I did. All of them worked harder much much harder in college than I did. They gave up much of the freedom and fun college/HS stuff I enjoyed. All of them took on extremely frugal lifestyles (other than two who had tons of scholarships to colleges in Hawaii and England - of course they "earned" those scholarships) than I did. Most of them spent more years in college not earning much of anything than I did and most of them left college with hefty loans to repay.
Now they earn six/seven figures. Some are now able to work only 4 days per week. Most put in over 40 hrs per week. Now it's time for "them" to enjoy the fruits of their decades of labor. But what happens. People who wasted their opportunity (lost opportuntiy cost) complain that they need to pay more in taxes, give them free medical attention and call them greedy.
< Message edited by P31W -- 10/15/2008 1:25:26 PM >
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 1:23:39 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
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quote:
Just a quick thought - money CAN be a sign of what you're doing. On the other hand, many times it is not. Is there any reason that I should get paid 10 times what my wife was getting paid as a seasoned educator? She worked every bit as hard as me and was every bit as respected in her chosen career. She chose to earn less money to work in a field that she loved. I'm just lucky to love a field that pays better!
I've also made choices in my career to be paid less than many that are in my same position. I could have moved to NYC and earned truly insane amounts of money working for a Wall Street firm. I've turned down at least one job at that level. I don't regret it a bit. Getting to the office at 8am and coming home at 10p or later every day isn't a life that I wanted.
Supply and demand.
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 1:24:41 PM
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GroupW
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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True enough, but I still do regret the amount of time I spent away from family.
If I could do it all over again, I wouldn't have made the same sacrifices. I'd be happy to earn less.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 1:29:43 PM
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P31W
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quote:
If I could do it all over again, I wouldn't have made the same sacrifices. I'd be happy to earn less.
But you should not force the individual who "did sacrifice" to pay more in taxes than you did. That person needs to be able to savor the fruits of their reward whatever that reward may be.
I should not force you to give up time with your children and no one should force me to give up my money because they "chose" to spend more time at home.
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 1:29:49 PM
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Leslie_JnJs_mom
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quote:
Free public school education for many people was a waste of money Free public school??? Where?? The largest part of my property taxes go to the public school. I had to pay every year even when I homeschooled.
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<------- Jessica and I had so much fun with grandma!
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 1:32:23 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
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quote:
As an economist by training, I get that. Just looking at what's been proposed at the federal level however, there isn't that much evidence that the changes in the proposed marginal rates impact economic behavior all that much. Certainly, at rates we had at the beginning of the Reagan administration, those impacts are meaningful. We're talking fairly minor federal level changes here though, taking them back to what we had during the Clinton administration.
Our state and local taxes have not remained the same. They have increased along with our insurances and the madates of the gov. that we are required to abide by. Over all the gov. is eating us up bite by bite. Small changes from many sources end up costing our employees jobs and their families benefits they need to go farther in life.
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 1:34:25 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 5097
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
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quote:
ORIGINAL: joannepir
I don't think you stand for the majority of the people. Most people in the lower economic community where I live welcomed the stimulus package.
I think that the majority of people in lower economic brackets really have no clue about where they money the receive was/is coming from. DH and I were talking about this last night... It seems great to be getting that money, but it really isn't. I know it's shocking to our lower and even middle income friends that we would refuse the stimulus checks but we really would. The majority of the economically educated community that DH works with, and that we socialize with feel the same way.
_____________________________
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RE: Another stimulus package? - 10/15/2008 1:35:10 PM
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P31W
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quote:
Free public school??? Where?? The largest part of my property taxes go to the public school. I had to pay every year even when I homeschooled.
 You sure nailed me on that one!!!!!
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