Guilt and shame

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Prairiehiker -> Guilt and shame (10/11/2008 12:19:44 PM)
Do you sometimes feel shame and guilt when you read the bible? Do you feel like you're being accused and you're being told how stupid you are for not doing what's right, for not trusting God, for doign everything wrong? Is that what we should be feeling when we're reading the word? Lately, that's what I'm feeling....like I'm being accused.

mvic -> RE: Guilt and shame (10/11/2008 1:06:54 PM)
No. And neither should you feel ashamed. That's not what God wants. He wishes that you learn from the Bible; because He loves you and cares for you.

URForgiven -> RE: Guilt and shame (10/11/2008 1:17:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker Do you sometimes feel shame and guilt when you read the bible? Do you feel like you're being accused and you're being told how stupid you are for not doing what's right, for not trusting God, for doign everything wrong? Is that what we should be feeling when we're reading the word? Lately, that's what I'm feeling....like I'm being accused. Before I was saved, yes. After I was saved, no. Peace

misty35 -> RE: Guilt and shame (10/11/2008 1:39:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker Do you sometimes feel shame and guilt when you read the bible? Do you feel like you're being accused and you're being told how stupid you are for not doing what's right, for not trusting God, for doign everything wrong? Is that what we should be feeling when we're reading the word? Lately, that's what I'm feeling....like I'm being accused. No, I dont believe the Lord wants us to feel that when we are reading the Word of God, He doesnt condemn us, but He saves us. But we have to remember, He speaks to us through His Word. The Word keeps me in check and in line, and Im thankful for that! He doesnt want us to feel stupid about mistakes we make, but He does want us to Trust Him, something He is showing me day by day. And He isnt the accuser, we know who that is. I think we have all experienced what you have, or atleast I know I have.

terryjohn -> RE: Guilt and shame (10/11/2008 1:52:23 PM)
Ashamed/Frustrated? We all have to live by the measure of faith God has given us and how frustrated we all should be that He has not given us more Nevetheless, I am happy that Chirst has said , "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." Faith is a minimum not a maximum. I guess we like all of creation must also groan in seeing faith being birthed in us. Ro 8:23 - Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 2Co 5:2 - Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 2Co 5:4 - For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

Walker311 -> RE: Guilt and shame (10/11/2008 3:25:36 PM)
I commend you for reading it. It is good that the words affect you instead of you feeling nothing at all. However, it seems that you letting the words be used by Satan rather than by God. Satan wants to beat you up and God wants to lift you up. quote: you're being accused and you're being told how stupid you are for not doing what's right, for not trusting God, for doign everything wrong? This is not feelings that God wants His words to generate. If you understand the heart of God, you will understand that His desire is that the bible becomes life to you.

nettiel -> RE: Guilt and shame (10/11/2008 5:28:13 PM)
[;)] sometimes, but i feel more guilty when i neglet god and his word. i always feel better when i put god first each day.nettiel

OneJohn410 -> RE: Guilt and shame (10/11/2008 10:47:55 PM)
Let me just put this one up here... I'm not about ripping out a verse and saying this is your answer- it just came to mind reading the thread. Hebrews 4:12 NASB - "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Answers for your questions. Yes. No. There's no collective answer to feelings about reading something. Like you are being accused... so not really being accused, but being reminded of something that keeps eating at you? Something you'd wish would just go away- shoo!? God's word can cut right to the core, right to the quick of it. Right to the heart of the matter, or to put a heart on that matter that's just been without any real form before. So as I'm reading and I feel ashamed about something, which I do think is a possible feeling, and something God may well intend, it could be about something that I have done that has not been the right thing to do. What about changing that word ashamed to convicted? God's used His word, selectively pinned down action X for me to see, and even knocked all distraction away from X with some precise cutting and whooshing away with that sword of His. A half a second, and I'm on my face, right? There's some repetitive thing I do that clashes with what I know to be right. Have you felt this way before, Prariehiker? Others have said no, you shouldn't feel shame. I wonder if they would say the same about conviction. The two are closely related. I would not call this unusual, nor unloving of God's part. He wants as little between us and Him as possible. I'm with you on the convicted feeling. Someone's got an avatar that is old-country sign-looking in appearance and reads 'Drink coffee, do stupid things faster with more energy.' I find that hi-larious. The stupid thing about stupid things is this- that hindsight is 20 20, and usually no one sets down and says enough with all these smart and wise actions, I'm going to do some stupid things now... on purpose! Nah! You don't know they are stupid until after they've played themselves out, or until you think now watch, I'm going to do this, and this is not the best way to do it, and it's going to go stupid on me... following which it does. That last case is my favorite kind of stupid thing to do, because I'm stubborn enough not to change my way at the last instant. One thing I've noticed about feelings and reading God's word, some day's bullseye, I've got right what I needed right between the eyes. Some days there's nothing that seems practical at all. Yet some days later, something may come up, and I may remember having seen that ho-hum passage, go back to it, and then it has incredible impact. I hope this helps fight off some blahs, OneJohn410 quote: ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker Do you sometimes feel shame and guilt when you read the bible? Do you feel like you're being accused and you're being told how stupid you are for not doing what's right, for not trusting God, for doign everything wrong? Is that what we should be feeling when we're reading the word? Lately, that's what I'm feeling....like I'm being accused.

Prairiehiker -> RE: Guilt and shame (10/14/2008 9:34:01 PM)
I don't know why....but this article written by the Internet monk on confession connected with me...... COnfessions.... I don’t like the fact that I can give a really good talk on prayer when I rarely pray. I don’t like it that I can read Matthew 5:23-24 and, as far as I can recall, never take a single step toward obeying it. I don’t like that I can sin and then condemn someone else’s sin in almost the same breath....Confession....an internetmonk article

RamiRedeemed -> RE: Guilt and shame (10/14/2008 9:54:56 PM)
Just a question- what are your intentions when you read?

Prairiehiker -> RE: Guilt and shame (10/14/2008 10:37:23 PM)
Looking for something of substance; some authenticity; some deep reflections. Looking for something that is written because it sounds nice but it's written because it's genuine and real. The Internet Monk has written so many articles that reflect the genuine struggles of a lot of Christ followers; only he's not afraid to come out and admit them.

RamiRedeemed -> RE: Guilt and shame (10/14/2008 10:44:34 PM)
Sorry hon, I meant when you read the Word?

bravjim -> RE: Guilt and shame (10/16/2008 9:00:10 PM)
Yes, I absolutely do feel ashamed at times when I read the word. It is because I am being convicted of my short comings. When you experience this, let it change you. Let it affect you. Keep seeking those convictions. What you are experiencing is God breaking you, and when He is breaking you, He is preparing you for something better. I experience this, and it hurts, but that hurt motivates me to examine my heart and my motivations, as well as my actions. The pain also motivates me to want to change, and to grow, to become more Christlike. The book of James has a verse that says that reading scripture is like looking into a mirror, which shows you who you are. That is what I experience, it shows me who I am supposed to be, and I see who I am, and I am disappointed in my heart how far away I am, and it shames me. The amazing part about this though, is that it is the Holy Spirit working in you. This can confirm for you that He is in you working to produce the Godly sorrow that motivates change. He is really working in your heart. It is not easy, but let it happen, for the joy that follows is more than worth it.

makarizo -> RE: Guilt and shame (10/17/2008 2:03:51 AM)
I like the bluntness of walker's post. I believe that I am saved by grace, knowing that the guilt and shame have been covered, and if I felt guilt and shame, I would know that I am holding something back, .... something I need to hand over to God and trust that He will take it. Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

SavedByGraceMD -> RE: Guilt and shame (10/21/2008 1:06:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker Do you sometimes feel shame and guilt when you read the bible? Do you feel like you're being accused and you're being told how stupid you are for not doing what's right, for not trusting God, for doign everything wrong? Is that what we should be feeling when we're reading the word? Lately, that's what I'm feeling....like I'm being accused. For me, I would say no to feeling like I am being accused when I read the bible. It does help to show me my shortcomings, and strengthen the conviction of the Holy Spirit. But it is never in accusation like form. It is a gentle conviction, a small voice that says I need to work on this or work on that. The accusations come from somewhere else. Our conscience maybe, the part that knows we shouldn't be doing something that will displease God. Or they come from the great accuser who spends all day everyday tormenting some poor soul with guilt. But the accusations do not come from God, His Spirit, or His Word. They are self inflicted, or snake inflicted, but hold your head up, because thanks to Jesus we too can overcome.

lightbeamrider -> RE: Guilt and shame (10/22/2008 7:00:41 AM)
Paul referred to self as a wretch. The Psalmist referred to self as a worm and not a man. If we are externally compliant but inwardly harbor lust and hate, in all its various forms then we are nothing more than pharisees and or whitewashed walls. For as everybody knows, Christianity is inside out. Guilt and shame within this context is part of the process of growth as is pain. For the Christian it is painful to go through life as a whitewashed tomb. Pain is good, it lets u know u are still alive.

DaveW -> RE: Guilt and shame (10/22/2008 7:50:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker Do you sometimes feel shame and guilt when you read the bible? Do you feel like you're being accused and you're being told how stupid you are for not doing what's right, for not trusting God, for doign everything wrong? Is that what we should be feeling when we're reading the word? Lately, that's what I'm feeling....like I'm being accused. It has been often said that Christianity is not a religion but a relationship. That is really true, but most do not approach it that way. Prayer and bible reading are actually 2 way communication with our Father. You cannot have a relationship when there is only 1 way communication (like listening to the radio DJ). God will speak to us thru prayer and by reading His word. Sometimes though another guy (the devil) will jump in there if we are not clear on discerning HIS voice and try to mimic Him. One of the titles the devil wears is "accuser of the bretheren," and what you describe would seem to fall squarely in that camp. One hugely important lesson I was taught in the church I attended in college was how to distinguish between the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the condemnation of our enemy. The HS is ALWAYS encouraging. If we sin, He tells us we can do better and gives us the strength to do so, even with difficult or impossible situations. The other guy ALWAYS tears us down, wears us out and tells us what a stinking lousy sinner we are and that we are a hopeless case. Give up. The trick is to remember this when we start getting the latter dumped all over us and reject it and start listening for the voice of encouragement. Often the devil screams at us and God speaks in the still small voice. Not easy, but we (YOU) can do it.

deermousie -> RE: Guilt and shame (10/22/2008 9:54:03 AM)
I think OneJohn410 nailed it. We feel guilt because we are guilty, and God may be shining His flashlight on something in the dark and crowded garage we need to deal with. And by His grace, we can and do. We don't see all the other junk there, and there's a lot of it, but God knows it's there and will deal with it later. If you know about a sin, deal with it now; it's hurting you. If you don't have a garage like this to teach you about your sins, come over and look at mine. [:D] We don't have to feel condemnation because God says there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:1). The guilt that pops up is like pain that tells us there's a splinter. We confess and repent (pull the splinter out) and thank God we are free. If the guilt continues, either we forgot we don't have to feel it (go back to your Bible and believe it) or the devil is trying to hurt us and we just need to resist him (he'll split. He has to). Throw Rom. 8:1 in his face, and rejoice in your freedom in Christ. Jesus paid for all your sins 2000 years ago. You aren't in slavery to your sin anymore. What a tremendous gift! Thank Him every day as you remember you are free, and why you are free. Who ever had a better Friend than this?!

manda59 -> RE: Guilt and shame (10/22/2008 10:21:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker Do you sometimes feel shame and guilt when you read the bible? Do you feel like you're being accused and you're being told how stupid you are for not doing what's right, for not trusting God, for doign everything wrong? Is that what we should be feeling when we're reading the word? Lately, that's what I'm feeling....like I'm being accused. I'd go so far as to say that shame and guilt are not from God - but conviction is. And it's not God who is described in the Bible as "the accuser of the brethren", but the other one (a wise elderly gentleman at our church used to describe that one as "old smutty face") So if you're feeling shame and guilt, and feeling accused, then it could well be "the other one" trying to have a go at you. When God convicts us, He does it by stirring and urging us, not by condemning us.

SavedByGraceMD -> RE: Guilt and shame (10/22/2008 6:26:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW quote: ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker Do you sometimes feel shame and guilt when you read the bible? Do you feel like you're being accused and you're being told how stupid you are for not doing what's right, for not trusting God, for doign everything wrong? Is that what we should be feeling when we're reading the word? Lately, that's what I'm feeling....like I'm being accused. It has been often said that Christianity is not a religion but a relationship. That is really true, but most do not approach it that way. Prayer and bible reading are actually 2 way communication with our Father. You cannot have a relationship when there is only 1 way communication (like listening to the radio DJ). God will speak to us thru prayer and by reading His word. Sometimes though another guy (the devil) will jump in there if we are not clear on discerning HIS voice and try to mimic Him. One of the titles the devil wears is "accuser of the bretheren," and what you describe would seem to fall squarely in that camp. One hugely important lesson I was taught in the church I attended in college was how to distinguish between the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the condemnation of our enemy. The HS is ALWAYS encouraging. If we sin, He tells us we can do better and gives us the strength to do so, even with difficult or impossible situations. The other guy ALWAYS tears us down, wears us out and tells us what a stinking lousy sinner we are and that we are a hopeless case. Give up. The trick is to remember this when we start getting the latter dumped all over us and reject it and start listening for the voice of encouragement. Often the devil screams at us and God speaks in the still small voice. Not easy, but we (YOU) can do it. agreed Dave. I think these lyrics from 2 casting crowns songs can be applied "Voice Of Truth" But the giant's calling out my name and he laughs at me Reminding me of all the times I've tried before and failed The giant keeps on telling me time and time again "Boy you'll never win, you'll never win." But the voice of truth tells me a different story the voice of truth says "do not be afraid!" and the voice of truth says "this is for my glory" Out of all the voices calling out to me I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth But the stone was just the right size to put the giant on the ground and the waves they don't seem so high from on top of them looking down I will soar with the wings of eagles when I stop and listen to the sound of Jesus singing over me "Fear" Lord, you've not given me a spirit of fear But of power and of love, and of a sound mind So from now on, I won't let the tempter's lies turn my eyes away from the prize

bravjim -> RE: Guilt and shame (10/22/2008 7:51:22 PM)
There certainly are a lot of very excellent posts here. I have to agree with them. But it is also written, I cannot remember where exactly, that God will produce Godly sorrow in your heart if you are not walking in step with Him. This is probably closer to what I feel when I read the word of God and see where I am coming up short. The great news is that when we heed that sorrow, and change our step, joy is right behind it.

DaveW -> RE: Guilt and shame (10/23/2008 6:35:32 AM)
2Co 7:8 For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it--for I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while-- 2Co 7:9 I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us. 2Co 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. 2Co 7:11 For behold what earnestness this very thing, this godly sorrow, has produced in you: what vindication of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what avenging of wrong! In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in the matter. Godly sorrow is what brings us to repentance, and it is good because it can bring us closer to God. The condemnation of the devil does not prompt us to repent but to just feel bad and push us away from God (death).

Prairiehiker -> RE: Guilt and shame (10/23/2008 7:33:09 AM)
DaveW, thanks for all the scriptural verses. That was very helpful.

deermousie -> RE: Guilt and shame (10/23/2008 10:23:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW It has been often said that Christianity is not a religion but a relationship. That is really true, but most do not approach it that way. Prayer and bible reading are actually 2 way communication with our Father. You cannot have a relationship when there is only 1 way communication (like listening to the radio DJ). God will speak to us thru prayer and by reading His word. Sometimes though another guy (the devil) will jump in there if we are not clear on discerning HIS voice and try to mimic Him. One of the titles the devil wears is "accuser of the bretheren," and what you describe would seem to fall squarely in that camp. One hugely important lesson I was taught in the church I attended in college was how to distinguish between the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the condemnation of our enemy. The HS is ALWAYS encouraging. If we sin, He tells us we can do better and gives us the strength to do so, even with difficult or impossible situations. The other guy ALWAYS tears us down, wears us out and tells us what a stinking lousy sinner we are and that we are a hopeless case. Give up. The trick is to remember this when we start getting the latter dumped all over us and reject it and start listening for the voice of encouragement. Often the devil screams at us and God speaks in the still small voice. Not easy, but we (YOU) can do it. Oh, Dave, this is really good!

Grace-N-Mercy -> RE: Guilt and shame (11/1/2008 8:22:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker Do you sometimes feel shame and guilt when you read the bible? Do you feel like you're being accused and you're being told how stupid you are for not doing what's right, for not trusting God, for doign everything wrong? Is that what we should be feeling when we're reading the word? Lately, that's what I'm feeling....like I'm being accused. Y'know, I just remembered why I had backed off my Bible study a few months ago... I felt I was doing more studying/reading than actually living out what it said. Yeah, I was feeling guilty too, like I wasn't living up to what He expected of me. Just being honest here. I know we're not supposed to feel guilty, but I did/do. I think I backed off because I was seeing the Bible under a microscope instead of stepping back and seeing the whole picture. Under the microscope, I was becoming very anxious; with the big picture, I could just see God for who He was.

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