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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/14/2008 1:46:29 PM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1212
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
We don't get forgiven, we are forgiven. And that forgiveness is in Christ, as is the eternal life that saves us.
quote:
Well, OK......but :
I John1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. "
Will forgive, not has forgiven. You don't obtain forgiveness without asking or everyone would go to heaven.
You sure?
Ephesians 1:7-8
"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding."
Hebrews 10:10-14
"And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time He waits for His enemies to be made His footstool, because by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."
quote:
If forgiveness is dependent upon us and our ability to confess and repent, then it is no longer Christ's sacrifice that has provided forgiveness, but it is us through our own ability to keep short accounts with God.
quote:
V6 of this same chapter indicates that a person can claim to have fellowship and yet walk in darkness.
Well. That is your interpretation eh? But, Jesus says...
John 8:12
"When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
Peace
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"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/14/2008 2:57:56 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6364
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
URForgiven, have you bought into the mistaken notion that God sent His Son to die on the cross so that we have a license to sin?
Of course we can sin, obviously. Unless you are saying you do not sin???
But God's grace is not license to sin, instead it is our only way to not sin...
But do you reject 1 John 1:19, where John was writing to BELIEVERS in need of FORGIVENESS.
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/14/2008 2:59:38 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
But do you reject 1 John 1:19, where John was writing to BELIEVERS in need of FORGIVENESS.
Don't mess up the theology. It was hard to come by. 
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/14/2008 3:11:03 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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I don't think that in this case we can just go "Well, it's not salvic, so no prob....." There IS a prob. 
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/14/2008 3:16:54 PM
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solarflare
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I guess there would also be a problem with predestination and free will.
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/14/2008 7:37:14 PM
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Kath
Posts: 16935
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Did we forget the OP?
quote:
Are Jews going to heaven? They believe in the same God but reject Jesus Christ as the messiah, their Lord and Savior. What about the hollocaust and those jews? Did they go heaven?
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/14/2008 8:28:06 PM
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armydude
Posts: 17152
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From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jadegrrl
A friend brought up these questions to me and I thought it was interesting. It is one of the reasons why he hasn't chosen to accept jesus into his life. So I am trying to find the answer for him and myself.
Are Jews going to heaven? They believe in the same God but reject Jesus Christ as the messiah, their Lord and Savior. What about the hollocaust and those jews? Did they go heaven?
Can a homosexual who believes in God and accepted Jesus christ who went to church and was a great person on earth.... do you think they can go to heaven?
I believe Jesus was clear in His statement. "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father, but by Me."
If you wanna go to heaven, you have to go through faith in Jesus which brings obedience to Him. The obedience is proof of the faith, but not a substitute for it. I can find no scripture to contradict this.
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/14/2008 11:29:41 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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URforgiven quoted me as saying:
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
We don't get forgiven, we are forgiven. And that forgiveness is in Christ, as is the eternal life that saves us. He was actually quoting himself.
What I did write was this:
quote:
Well, OK......but :
I John1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. "
Will forgive, not has forgiven. You don't obtain forgiveness without asking or everyone would go to heaven.
That Scripture applies to all who would enter heaven. I don't agree with UR's interpretation of that Scripture.
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/14/2008 11:53:32 PM
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bravjim
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To me, faith in Christ is essential. There were those were lived during the old testament times who believed in God and the messiah, and lived by the spirit of the law. Just as there were many Jews who did not believe or live by the spirit of the law. When they sinned, they would repent of their sin. Faith is the key, the kind of faith that changes lives. Repentance is the act of a person with that kind of faith. They change their lives by turning away from sin. So can a homosexual go to heaven. Not if they continue in their sinful life. It is a change in our heart, and repentance that is at issue. Repentance means to change our lives based upon the work of Christ on the cross. Can a homosexual who repents of his sin, I mean genuinely repents of his sin, be saved and go to heaven. Yes, absolutely. As for a Jew, he must have faith. Faith is the requirement. The matters of faith are dealt with extensively in the new testament from Hebrews, James, the books of Peter, and of John, as well as in Paul's epistles. For someone to accept Christ and not die to their old ways and live in newness of life, I would have to question whether their salvation is genuine. The book of Romans states that if you believe from your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, then you will be saved. When you believe something from your heart, it will affect the way that you live. When you confess Jesus is lord, that means that He has authority in your life, not you. To me, it is faith in action that determines whether you have submitted to His lordship. You might want to reread Romans, especially 9-11 for more information about the salvation of the Jews. It says that Israels rejection is not total, but those who live by faith will be saved.
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I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/15/2008 4:35:16 AM
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Third-eye
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Joined: 10/14/2008
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John 3-16: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life"
I don't think that we are equipped to even judge ourselves.
God is a loving God and shall have mercy on whomever He chooses.
I get in states of absolute dread when I think of all the non-believers in this world.(alot of them happen to be my friends and family.)
The idea of them not sharing eternity in Heaven with me causes me unbearable sorrow.
I want to be in that number...when the saints go marching in and I want everyone to be there.
"For God desires that none shall be lost."
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/15/2008 12:26:43 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4166
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
Did we forget the OP?quote:
Are Jews going to heaven? They believe in the same God but reject Jesus Christ as the messiah, their Lord and Savior. What about the hollocaust and those jews? Did they go heaven? There has been a huge debate going on about this for many years. There are several schools of thought on it.
There is the narrow hope, the narrower wide hope, the wide hope, the wider wide hope; and probably more.
I and most evangelicals would fall into the narrow hope category.
THere are several treatises on the various positions HERE. Unfortunately it is a pay-to-see site. I will post a couple of paragraphs from Juster's paper explaining his problem with the narrow hope.
The narrow hope view provides us with difficulties. It too easily thinks that we can judge who is and who is not “saved” on an individual basis. It involves a judgment of the unseen heart. It does not give adequate to those Scriptures that more than hint at a wider mercy from God for those that seek the Truth. I see no gain in holding this position over against the narrow wider hope view. For one thing, it makes us so narrow that others will unnecessarily dismiss us as bigots. When Billy Graham was on Larry King’s show and was asked concerning the destiny of those who have not accepted Yeshua, he made two statements. One was that Yeshua was the way and that he was called to proclaim salvation through believing in him which is the way of assurance of salvation. He made it clear that there was a great danger of being lost. However, he also said that the destiny of those who have not had opportunity to receive Him was a mystery and that God was the Judge, not Billy Graham. He trusted that God was merciful and would save all that He could. He held out hope for God’s mercy. This seemed to satisfy Larry. At least, Billy Graham did not look like a narrow minded bigot.
About a year previous, one of the leaders of a major Jewish outreach organization was also on Larry King’s show with a noted Rabbi. The Rabbi accused the leader of having an abhorrent and narrow view that all those who have not explicitly embraced Yeshua were going to Hell. He stated that the leader believed that the victims of the Holocaust went from the ovens of Aushwitz to the eternal barbeque in Hell. This was an emotional appeal that was not totally valid. However, it had its effect. The missions leader had nothing to say and responded as if this was his view. Jesus was presented as the only way, and this meant explicit confession in this life in every case. Instead, he could have asserted that Yeshua was the way to salvation for Jew and Gentile, and the way to assurance for one’s eternal destiny. At the same time he could have said that God would mercifully judge all who sought the truth and to live according to righteousness in dependence on His grace. This is the basic teaching of the Judaism of the Siddur.
Our rabbi (Michael Rudolph) attended the symposium where these various papers were presented last spring. In a report on it to the congregation he states:
To many of us, these rhetorical questions are familiar because we have encountered them early in our Bible learning. And if we were to poll each other on our beliefs about such things, we would find differences because we have all been indoctrinated by the individuals and the institutions that first taught us, for whom there always seemed to be a precise answer, and only one right way of looking at everything. And so long as we remained at our original congregational homes, we very likely encountered only those who believed as we did. But we did not remain there, for look around us; we are here – not there. And in the process of coming here, we brought with us many deeply held convictions and presuppositions, and we therefore find it disturbing that the persons to our left and right don’t necessarily share our views. All I can say to that is “smile, you’re now part of Messianic Judaism.”
Anyway, the Soteriology conference I attended did not attempt to address all aspects of salvation; rather it focused on a recent hot-topic in both Evangelicalism and Messianic Judaism, over whether or to what extent there is biblical latitude for an individual’s eternal life with God other than what is most commonly taught in evangelical and Fundamentalist circles – that to be saved, a person must, during his lifetime, confess the historic Yeshua as Lord and savior, and be baptized. This latitude, should it exist, is what theologians call “Wider Hope.”
Beliving that those who love God (the God of the bible) and try to be obedient to what truth they have, may have a chance is the narrower wide hope. I would also put in assuming a positive salvic status of the unborn, very young children, mentally handicapped, etc. is also a narrower wide hope.
I am at odds with my congregation on that in that I have the narrow opinion. I see no biblical hope for salvation apart from a positive excercise in faith in the finished work of Jesus on the cross.
As I cannot post the entire 9 pages of Rabbi Rudolph's paper (tos violation), and it is not available on the web, if you wish to read more, I can send the word document to you via email.
< Message edited by DaveW -- 10/15/2008 12:35:34 PM >
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/15/2008 2:09:43 PM
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d4nnyb0y02
Posts: 318
Joined: 9/24/2008
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All who trust Christ as their savior are going to heaven. The pharisees were Jews. Are they going to heaven if unconverted? Homosexuality won't keep someone out of heaven... living such *and* rejecting Christ for the proptiation of one's sin will keep one out of heaven.
All who trust Christ as their savior are going to heaven. It's a simple message, lets keep it simple. :)
_____________________________
OSAS is the Gospel.
(Gal 1:6;5:4) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
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