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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 3:34:39 PM
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sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3764
Joined: 1/9/2007
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quote:
Original: mvic
For my part, I really don't know. I believe in Christ and do my best to live as He would wish me too. Yet, leave that final decision to Him. In hope that He will find me worthy.
None of us are worthy, or ever could be. Except through the blood of Jesus Christ. Not by works lest any man should boast. It is the free gift of God.
God knows each one of our hearts.
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 3:39:12 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6628
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
I cannot comprehend a just and loving God dooming 3/4 of the people of the world simply because they happen to be born in an area where another religion happens to predominant. Even if I could get past all the issues I have with religion in general, there is no conceivable circumstance that I could worship such a God. My brain must simply be wired differently then yours.
KT, I cannot comprehend $700 billion dollars. I cannot comprehend 10,000 years. I cannot comprehend 20 million Russians killed during WW2. I cannot comprehend a category 5 hurricane. Does that make them impossible or does it just show that my mind is incapable of grasping certain things?
Since eternity is at stake, letting our limitations or insisting that we have a god made in OUR image is a little childish and foolish. The wise person will find out what God is and what He demands and adjust accordingly.
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 3:42:52 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6628
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
Who has suffered more, Jesus on His two days on the cross, or my mother in her eternity in the fires of Hell?
Only an ignorant person would ask that. Jesus in His 9 or so hours on the cros bore all the penalty for all the people to ever have and will ever live - provided they believe and receive His substitution.
Only a fool on death row refuses freedom purchased by another, innocent person.
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 3:45:12 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6628
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
...I will say this a Christian will not live in those sins for very long, and will be miserable if he does, but to say that a Christian is not capable of commiting those sins isn't correct. A christian does become a new creation and will not make those sins his priority, but we are still all capable of commiting those sins.
I didn't say that, sport. What I did say was "If anyone can live in intentional sin without God's chastisement, the Bible says they are not His, they are tares and false converts."
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 3:52:46 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 899
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
Tell me what you think life is like for my mother in Hell. Is she at this moment screaming in searing horrible pain? Will God, in His love, ever release her from this stupendous suffering?
Who has suffered more, Jesus on His two days on the cross, or my mother in her eternity in the fires of Hell?
I can understand where you are coming from. I have family members who are not saved. They may wind up in hell. I don' t know, only God does.
What is it like for anyone in hell, you already said it, stupendous suffering, eternity without God, pain, torment, if it is bad you can probably add it in here. It will not be a pleasant place for anyone, I can say that honestly.
The very sad truth is all of us will know someone who will not go to heaven. Which becomes our purpose. To tell them all what we have learned. I pray for time with my father and brother so they may come to know the Lord, but ultimately the choice will be theirs.
The pain you feel in regards to your mother I cannot at this point in my life imagine. Not that I don't know anyone who died without Christ, but it hasn't been those closest to me.
You may be mad at God for it, but it wasn't His choice. I don't believe He chooses that any should wind up in hell, but in His justice all must come under judgment. In the end, He honors our own choice. The choice not to trust in Him, not to put our faith in Jesus. Sadly, this choice does come with a consequence.
I pray KaseyTom, that you will not use what happened with your Mother, and hold it against God, but use it to see the need for Him. Learn about the real God. The God of love, mercy, unfailing love, and grace. At times He is a God of wrath, because He is righteous and just, but He would rather forgive than punish. In Joel 2:12-13 we are told just these things
12 That is why the Lord says,
“Turn to me now, while there is time.
Give me your hearts.
Come with fasting, weeping, and mourning.
13 Don’t tear your clothing in your grief,
but tear your hearts instead.”
Return to the Lord your God,
for he is merciful and compassionate,
slow to get angry and filled with unfailing love.
He is eager to relent and not punish.
I will pray for you.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 3:56:13 PM
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KaseyTom
Posts: 163
Joined: 9/12/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
I cannot comprehend a just and loving God dooming 3/4 of the people of the world simply because they happen to be born in an area where another religion happens to predominant. Even if I could get past all the issues I have with religion in general, there is no conceivable circumstance that I could worship such a God. My brain must simply be wired differently then yours.
KT, I cannot comprehend $700 billion dollars. I cannot comprehend 10,000 years. I cannot comprehend 20 million Russians killed during WW2. I cannot comprehend a category 5 hurricane. Does that make them impossible or does it just show that my mind is incapable of grasping certain things?
Since eternity is at stake, letting our limitations or insisting that we have a god made in OUR image is a little childish and foolish. The wise person will find out what God is and what He demands and adjust accordingly.
So the people of Kansas are wiser then the people of China, Japan, India, the entire middle east, and all the other predominantly non-christian places in the world?
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 4:00:00 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6628
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
So the people of Kansas are wiser then the people of China, Japan, India, the entire middle east, and all the other predominantly non-christian places in the world?
I don't know about Kansas. But none of the people you listed advise sovereign God as to His character or how to rule His universe. And put together, they aren't as wise as God.
And for the record, the Gospel was almost 14 centuries in making it to the US - even longer to Kansas. You see, it began and first spread throughout the entire middle east. Or didn't you know that?
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 4:03:53 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 899
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
I cannot comprehend a just and loving God dooming 3/4 of the people of the world simply because they happen to be born in an area where another religion happens to predominant. Even if I could get past all the issues I have with religion in general, there is no conceivable circumstance that I could worship such a God. My brain must simply be wired differently then yours.
KT, I cannot comprehend $700 billion dollars. I cannot comprehend 10,000 years. I cannot comprehend 20 million Russians killed during WW2. I cannot comprehend a category 5 hurricane. Does that make them impossible or does it just show that my mind is incapable of grasping certain things?
Since eternity is at stake, letting our limitations or insisting that we have a god made in OUR image is a little childish and foolish. The wise person will find out what God is and what He demands and adjust accordingly.
So the people of Kansas are wiser then the people of China, Japan, India, the entire middle east, and all the other predominantly non-christian places in the world?
The question isn't whether they are wiser. In all the places you have named here, the Gospel is preached. There are an estimated 100 million underground Chinese Christians. I just saw on the 700 club a story about 20,000 Indian Christian refugees who are holed up somewhere due to their houses being burnt to the ground along with their churches. It is the same in all Muslim countries, or Communist countries.
What it comes down to is that all who have heard the Gospel have made a choice. For Jesus, or against Jesus.
Those you spoke of in Kansas have made their choice.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 4:18:07 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 899
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
No worries, I know with absolute certainty the God you believe in doesn't exists, there is no Heaven or Hell, and when my mother died she simply cease to be, as will I. I was simply trying to make a point about the contradictions in your belief system and personalize it to help drive in the point.
Well, I don't want to have to correct you, but I do have to. You cannot know for absolute certainty that God does not exist. I on the other hand can know with absolute certainty that He does. It is called the Holy Spirit, and it dwells within all Christians.
Contradictions.....where. I have not seen any. It is only mans opinions and interpretations that make the word of God contradict. On its own, with the guidance of His spirit, it does not and will not contradict.
quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
Of course my mother died with same belief system as I have, so from your point of view everything you say still holds.
I truly wish there was a happy afterlife as it would be interesting (and probably pretty boring after 30 bazillion bazillion years) and would make the long slow process growing old and dying much more tolerable. But we are what we are and we belief what we belief.
There is a happy afterlife. This life is not it. Once in heaven, so you know, we do not grow old or die. Eternal life means eternal, forever.
You are what you are, and you believe what you believe, but that can be changed. All things can become new through faith in Jesus. He will change your whole outlook on life.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 4:20:33 PM
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Lufia
Posts: 187
Joined: 5/25/2008
From: Canada, quebec province
Status: offline
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God hate sin. In fact He hates it so much that He gave His Son. His Son was tortured because of sin. Can you imagine giving your only child to be tortured and killed in front of your eyes? Can you imagine what God must have felt while watching Jesus being crucified? That's how much He hates sins. And that's why Jesus is the only way to salvation. Say yes to Jesus and God will say yes to you.
_____________________________
Give your life to Jesus and enjoy the ride!
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 4:26:43 PM
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SweetPea213
Posts: 61
Joined: 2/20/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
So the people of Kansas are wiser then the people of China, Japan, India, the entire middle east, and all the other predominantly non-christian places in the world?
KaseyTom,
When you say the people of Kanas, would by any chance be talking about the Westboro Baptist Church? If you are, then I would not take anything that group says seriously.
I'm sorry to hear that you have lost both your parents  The verse in my signature brings me a sense of comfort and peace, and maybe you could take some comfort or peace in something that means as much to you as this verse does to me. I hope that makes sense!
One of the things that is amazing about my God is that He knows everything that we go through--happiness, pain, sadness, anything. He came to us in human form as Jesus Christ. He knows our pain and our suffering, although it may not always seem like He does.
I hope someday you can find the comfort and peace you are looking for. There is light at the end of your tunnel, you have to take the steps to find it.
_____________________________
"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed." ~ 1 Peter 2:24
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 4:29:34 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6628
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
I truly wish there was a happy afterlife as it would be interesting (and probably pretty boring after 30 bazillion bazillion years) and would make the long slow process growing old and dying much more tolerable. But we are what we are and we belief what we belief.
Just curious, if you think we're all at least a little flakey for our beliefs, why join & hang out here? Surely you're not looking for converts. And I assume you aren't a killjoy.
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 4:34:28 PM
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KaseyTom
Posts: 163
Joined: 9/12/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
Well, I don't want to have to correct you, but I do have to. You cannot know for absolute certainty that God does not exist. I on the other hand can know with absolute certainty that He does. It is called the Holy Spirit, and it dwells within all Christians.
and 1.3 billion Muslims know with absolute certainty that Allah exists and his prophet is Mohammad (peace be upon Him), and 10 million devout Jews know with absolute certainty that Jesus was NOT the son of God, and one billion Hindus know with absolute certainty that...well what ever it is they believe.
It you happen to be born in Pakistan, or Israel, or India, it is statistically probable you would also believe with absolute certainty as they do.
As I said, our brains are simply wired differently. Isn't that the way God intended it to be?
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 4:37:40 PM
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PastorPatricia
Posts: 184
Joined: 8/6/2005
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I know God exists because I have seen lives changed, people healed and prayers answered. I know I am going to heaven, not because I'm without sin, but because the Bible tells me my sin is forgiven through the shed blood of Christ and I have accepted Christ's Lordship of my life. As far as judging who else is or is not going to heaven I'll leave that up to God. I believe that God can revile himself to anyone and gives them opportunity to accept Jesus until their last breath.
_____________________________
But be sure to fear the Lord and serve him faithfully with all your heart; consider what great things he has done for you. Is. 12:24
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 4:43:22 PM
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mvic
Posts: 1546
Joined: 1/17/2008
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You see Pastor Patricia, I believe you're right. When I said something similar earlier on ... well, you can see what reactions it got.
I believe we're being too presumptuous when we play God and pretend to know who will and who will not go to Heaven.
_____________________________
Christian words of comfort at http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
Welcome to my Blog
MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 4:45:04 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6628
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
As I said, our brains are simply wired differently. Isn't that the way God intended it to be?
As I noted earlier, Chrsitianity started in Israel, then the Mid-East and spread from there. It didn't start in Kansas. You think we swapped brain schematics during the past couple of thousand years?
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 4:47:29 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6628
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
I believe we're being too presumptuous when we play God and pretend to know who will and who will not go to Heaven.
Should we cut out those parts that don't agree with your philosophy, countless passages that tell us who will and who won't go? Maybe we could write our on bible.... although it's been done before.
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 5:02:31 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 899
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PastorPatricia
I know God exists because I have seen lives changed, people healed and prayers answered. I know I am going to heaven, not because I'm without sin, but because the Bible tells me my sin is forgiven through the shed blood of Christ and I have accepted Christ's Lordship of my life. As far as judging who else is or is not going to heaven I'll leave that up to God. I believe that God can revile himself to anyone and gives them opportunity to accept Jesus until their last breath.
I agree with you.
But if we as Christians start saying that Jesus may not be the only way(and I know you are not saying that), then what does that do to our faith. Why then did Jesus have to die. Only for those who were more likely to believe in Him. The rest of the people can find another way.
Just asking, I am not pointing a finger at you.   , but don't we know. Were we not told in His word who will and won't go to heaven. I don't think it is being presumptuous to say what we have been told in the bible.
If there is another way, then isn't our faith in vain? Just asking, because I don't know what some are trying to imply on here.
I mean if I could party, drug it up, sleep around, mock God all day long and still go to heaven, without ever confessing sin or repenting, why would I bother with living a life pleasing to God?
If I could lie, cheat, steal, and whatever else my way to the top, never confess it as sin, never repent, and still go to heaven, why wouldn't I?
Jesus is the only way. Faith in Him, and a life lived for Him. That's it. That's what my bible tells me, and if it is not true, why should I believe any of it?
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 5:03:24 PM
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KaseyTom
Posts: 163
Joined: 9/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
I truly wish there was a happy afterlife as it would be interesting (and probably pretty boring after 30 bazillion bazillion years) and would make the long slow process growing old and dying much more tolerable. But we are what we are and we belief what we belief.
Just curious, if you think we're all at least a little flakey for our beliefs, why join & hang out here? Surely you're not looking for converts. And I assume you aren't a killjoy.
Most humans that have ever lived believed in a God or gods and an afterlife. I don't think your flaky, I think your human.
As for why I hang here, I enjoy intellectually stimulating religious and political debate, and the excellent moderation keeps things civil and keeps out the inevitable trolls and other who ruin most forums (though it is a bit like walking on eggshells). The last thing I would do is join an atheist forum. I can't think of anything more boring.
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 5:07:32 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6628
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
Most humans that have ever lived believed in a God or gods and an afterlife. I don't think your flaky, I think your human.
As for why I hang here, I enjoy intellectually stimulating religious and political debate, and the excellent moderation keeps things civil and keeps out the inevitable trolls and other who ruin most forums (though it is a bit like walking on eggshells). The last thing I would do is join an atheist forum. I can't think of anything more boring.
Thanks for your answer and your kind words!
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 5:27:49 PM
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DuckTalk
Posts: 221
Joined: 9/16/2008
From: A Duck Hole in Tennessee
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
Folks here don't like to say it directly, but the general consensus among evangelical Christians is that Jews (even the one who died in the Holocaust) who die without accepting Christ spend eternity suffering the unspeakable torture of Hell, while even the monster who killed them will go to heaven if he sincerely accepts Christ as his saviour.
Am I interpreting the general consensus of this board correctly? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I for one, greatly appreciate directness & cut to the chase without sugar-coating honesty, but need you to diffuse your statement for further understanding......Your generalized consensus places the burden on all Jews who were tortured to death in the Holocaust. Would that general consensus then also include the small children who died in the Holocaust to spend eternity the same way they spent their last days on earth....being tortured?
_____________________________
Sufferin' sassafrass. The nerve of some people, profitting from other people's miseries.
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 8:35:12 PM
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mvic
Posts: 1546
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline
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JimboFletch,
I'm not cutting out anything from the Bible or pick and choose what to believe.
Of course I believe in John 14:6. One way (Jesus) to go to God.
The point I'm trying to make, (badly as it happens), is that there are many people who through no fault of their own do not know Jesus. I mentioned people living in remote villages. I may add babies and children too who die young and cannot comprehend as adults do.
Being human, were the decision mine, I would use human judgement and perhaps not act on John 14:6 as a definite no exception rule.
So I believe that God, being far superior than I a mere human, with greater wisdom, love and compassion, would also not abandon these, His creations, who, through no fault of their own, did not get to know Him.
That's why I say the final decision is His. And it is not for us to presume who will go to Heaven.
_____________________________
Christian words of comfort at http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
Welcome to my Blog
MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 9:49:48 PM
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jadegrrl
Posts: 9
Joined: 10/9/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
The Bible is true and you can trust it. Being a Christian is not an easy life but the rewards are far greater than the hardships. If your friend is serious, tell him to stop looking for loopholes and seek Jesus with his whole heart and Jesus will reveal Himself to him:
Thankyou, and I like that comment. I guess, I am also scared that I may tell him so and reject it. Meaning, if he feels that 'good people who don't believe in christ will spend their eternity in hell' than he will rather 'die with the sinners than sing with the saints' because he doesn't think its fair or choose a religion that he seeks fits. And we can probably go round and round in circles with that debate. Thankyou for the feedback and I will let the holy spirit guide me
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 10:07:46 PM
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jadegrrl
Posts: 9
Joined: 10/9/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
I pray KaseyTom, that you will not use what happened with your Mother, and hold it against God, but use it to see the need for Him. Learn about the real God. The God of love, mercy, unfailing love, and grace. At times He is a God of wrath, because He is righteous and just, but He would rather forgive than punish. In Joel 2:12-13 we are told just these things
12 That is why the Lord says,
“Turn to me now, while there is time.
Give me your hearts.
Come with fasting, weeping, and mourning.
13 Don’t tear your clothing in your grief,
but tear your hearts instead.”
Return to the Lord your God,
for he is merciful and compassionate,
slow to get angry and filled with unfailing love.
He is eager to relent and not punish.
I will pray for you.
Wow, those were great words of encouragement that I may use that same response when it is needed... and I know it will be. Thankyou
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RE: The People that are going to Heaven - 10/9/2008 10:25:41 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1843
Status: offline
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quote:
A friend brought up these questions to me and I thought it was interesting. It is one of the reasons why he hasn't chosen to accept jesus into his life. So I am trying to find the answer for him and myself.
Are Jews going to heaven? They believe in the same God but reject Jesus Christ as the messiah, their Lord and Savior. What about the hollocaust and those jews? Did they go heaven?
Can a homosexual who believes in God and accepted Jesus christ who went to church and was a great person on earth.... do you think they can go to heaven?
Romans 1 makes it clear that God has revealed Himself sufficiently ("is evident within them", "His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made") for all men to be saved. They are without excuse.
God's plan for the Jews is a very special plan and will be fulfilled. I do not know ALL who are His but I do know that God is righteous, just, faithful and good and with that I can say Amen. What will be will be good.
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