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RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/11/2008 8:59:13 AM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Those pro-choice "Christians" I know, many who are theologically trained, highly intelligent people; are mostly of the opinion that a baby is not a person until they actually take a breath on their own. They will quote from Genesis as their Biblical support for such an idea.
Well, maybe what would be a good idea would be for you to read the rest of this thread, and learn that not all pro-choicers are the same.
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"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
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RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/11/2008 9:02:42 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1085
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
Those pro-choice "Christians" I know, many who are theologically trained, highly intelligent people; are mostly of the opinion that a baby is not a person until they actually take a breath on their own. They will quote from Genesis as their Biblical support for such an idea.
Well, maybe what would be a good idea would be for you to read the rest of this thread, and learn that not all pro-choicers are the same.
Maybe what would be a good idea for you is to read what I said, and learn that I was talking about those pro-choicers I know.
Peace
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"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/11/2008 11:09:23 AM
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Ps103
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Please stick to the topic in the OP.
The topic is not the other posters in the thread.
The topic is "how do pro-choice Christians justify their position in correlation of their faith?"
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RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/11/2008 12:41:40 PM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
How do Christians who are Pro-Choice justify their decision to hold that view in correlation their faith?
Those pro-choice "Christians" I know, many who are theologically trained, highly intelligent people; are mostly of the opinion that a baby is not a person until they actually take a breath on their own. They will quote from Genesis as their Biblical support for such an idea.
Personally, I think that is a very "convenient" belief, and that is the kindest thing I can say about it.
Peace
There are other opinions than this that Christians hold, and I don't think "convenience" has so much to do with it. I don't mind that people believe what they believe, but I don't believe in bashing one another when no one knows if the other is right...and we usually all have Biblical bases. This thread is about why pro-choice/non-conception believing Christians feel that this is right/justified...not why others disagree with them.  There are threads on that already.
For the OP, if you google "when does personhood begin?" and look at the first link that pops up, you'll see a few different Christian takes on the matter. If you click on then, they'll give you the reasoning behind that belief.
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RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/11/2008 3:40:20 PM
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Kath
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This thread has now had 3 moderator nudges in it (this makes the 4th).
Please follow the guidelines of the OP. To disregard the mods puts the status of your account in jeopardy, in other words you may be banned.
Also, putting quotation marks around the word Christians is harassing and a violation of TOS 6. Knock it off.
Sincerely
Kath
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< Message edited by Kath -- 10/11/2008 11:24:43 PM >
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RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/16/2008 11:58:13 AM
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ultimathule
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quote:
How do Christians who are Pro-Choice justify their decision to hold that view in correlation their faith?
being pro-choice means to me just that..a choice. Yes, abortion is legal in the united states, but they dont have to happen. Women are not forced to have abortions here. If you dont like that we have the freedom to make that choice thats fine. If abortions are going to be stopped its going to be outside of the political process by talking to people and creating trusting strong friendships with them to influence their decisio. again, i am pro choice because its a personal matter. The choice to carry or abort are not forced to an extent. I dont believe if a person votes liberal or conservative for a person who supports abortion is responsible for abortion. That abortion was a personal descision and a hard one to make. It would have happend anyway unless as i said the person had a close friend or belief that stopped them from doing it. The others would have probably not cared if it was obama or bush in office...thats my opinion..
I am also pushed away from the anti-abortion debate because of the anti-abortion christians I meet. They really have turned me off to christianity because those i have met have been adiment and often cruel to those who are in worse circumstances than the ones they are in.
churchs are to busy building coffee shops and putting up cool lighting than to actually do something to help unwanted pregnacies to stop or to be carried through. once every 4 years the church gets fired up about it, elect an anti-abortion president then forget about it for the next 4 years...whilst 4 years of abortions took place.
< Message edited by ultimathule -- 10/16/2008 2:39:02 PM >
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RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/16/2008 9:02:00 PM
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Kath
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quote:
They really have turned me off to christianity because those i have met have been adiment and often cruel to those who are in worse circumstances than the ones they are in.
Are you a Christian? The OP asks how one can be a Christian and also pro-choice.
< Message edited by Kath -- 10/16/2008 9:08:44 PM >
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RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/17/2008 11:06:30 AM
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ultimathule
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quote:
Are you a Christian? The OP asks how one can be a Christian and also pro-choice.
I am not sure where i stand i suppose. I believe in God but thats about it. I feel like i am in a transition phase in my life right now.
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RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/17/2008 11:53:18 PM
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Kath
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Again, I have deleted off topic posts.
I honestly cannot figure out why it is so hard for people to follow the rules.
Stick to the OP. If you are a ANTI-abortion (or prolife) Christian then this thread is not for you.
Sincerely
Kath
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RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/20/2008 3:09:17 PM
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Heavendweller
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
How do Christians who are Pro-Choice justify their decision to hold that view in correlation their faith?
Dear Torch,
I don't think there is one answer, but many. Here are just a few.
Some Christians think it is more merciful to terminate a pregnancy than bring an unwanted child into the world. It would be better that the child were never born than born into miserable circumstances.
Some Christians think that terminating the life of a fetus is not murder because they hold to the idea that no one can "proove" when life actually begins.
Some Christians think that abortion is a God-given right and therefore should not be prohibited by law. They think that this is under the "freedoms" that we have as Christians.
Some Christians think that it is better to have "clean, safe, abortions" than force women who do not want an unborn child to be "forced" into having back alley abortions. So making abortion legal is more merciful than prohibiting it.
I'm sure there are more reasons as well.
Darlene
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See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. I John 3:1
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RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/26/2008 7:35:50 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
This Thread runs the risk of becoming a debate between Pro-Life and Pro-Choice. Yet, that is not what the Opening Post asks:
I think, with the OP asking a specific question, a back and forth debate would be considered off-topic. :) I know there are Christians here who believe that life begins at a point other than conception, but with some threads they just end up being maligned and called cold-blooded murderers and that keeps them away. It's hard to talk when people are being rude and disrespectful. Perhaps they'll come now if this thread can just answer the OP and not go off to somewhere else. :)
thats tricky, when is the exact moment the fetus becomes a human? they cannot even predict the exact day a person will give birth. what if they are off by a few seconds? this is tricky to predict if you go that route.
then you get into the tricky thing about what makes a human a human? what about someone without a right arm, does that make them less human? what about conjoined twins, or some other such thing. these things can be tricky unless you go back further - which is conception. it has to be! a fetus is just a stage in the unborn baby's life.. same as a zygote, embryo, etc.
i would say a person is not a person when they are still a sperm traveling to the egg.
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RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/26/2008 10:15:52 PM
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LifeisGalatians220
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
How do Christians who are Pro-Choice justify their decision to hold that view in correlation their faith?
I am curious about this also. I've seen a lot of replies about how people have justified their position, but I haven't seen how they hold that up with their faith in Jesus Christ. Believe me, I'm not trying to be snarky or whatever, but I also would like to understand this about my brothers and sisters in the Lord.
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Victory is Jesus overcoming me!!!
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RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 10/26/2008 10:57:56 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LifeisGalatians220
I am curious about this also. I've seen a lot of replies about how people have justified their position, but I haven't seen how they hold that up with their faith in Jesus Christ. Believe me, I'm not trying to be snarky or whatever, but I also would like to understand this about my brothers and sisters in the Lord.
Psssst, trying reading the answers in the thread then! LOL!
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"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 11/1/2008 12:50:08 PM
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Heavendweller
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LifeisGalatians220
I am curious about this also. I've seen a lot of replies about how people have justified their position, but I haven't seen how they hold that up with their faith in Jesus Christ. Believe me, I'm not trying to be snarky or whatever, but I also would like to understand this about my brothers and sisters in the Lord.
Dear Life,
I think the reasons some Christians give to defend abortion can include, but are not limited to some that I already gave above.
Now, as to "how" Christians can reconcile defending abortion with their faith, I don't think can be addressed with one simple answer. For example, at one time I thought that abortion was justified in the cases of a rape or incest. I no longer believe the same way.
As Christians, our understanding will never be perfected until we are with our Lord in Heaven. What I mean to say here, is that Christians can believe wrongly about various issues because we are mere vessels of clay. We do not always understand life and the various intricate issues that involve matters of sin and morality the way that God does.
As for me, I changed my beliefs on abortion as I began to study more about this issue. Also, I read some excellent documents as well as various teachings on the subject, which convinced me that abortion at any stage is intrinsically evil. But, the process of changing my mind took prayer, investigating what the Church believed throughout history, educating myself, and the willingness to consider that I might be wrong in my views. This process took some time, and often I would find myself in a quandary, that is, wanting to hold on to my views and not consider that I might be defending the wrong position.
So, when I encounter other Christians that defend abortion, while I disagree with them, I do not judge them. I understand their point of view because I was like them at one time. We can oppose a belief that someone holds, without opposing the person themselves. I think this is a lesson in learning to be charitable in all situations that we encounter in life. It is not easy, but should be our goal.
However, this does not mean that I do not pray that all who call themselves Christians will one day be united in defending the lives of the unborn, from conception till birth. They are the most defenseless of all human beings.
Heavendweller
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See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. I John 3:1
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RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 11/4/2008 8:45:52 PM
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relady
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I'll take a chance a weigh in as a pro-choice person who considers herself a Christian. I want to make it clear that I am pro-CHOICE not pro abortion, meaning that I am ok with it being legal and allowing women to make the choice of whether to terminate a pregnancy or not. Also, I have no problem with regulating the abortion industry in line with what is allowed in Roe v Wade. Basically that means that any restriction needs to allow exceptions for not only the life but also the health of the mother.
How do I square this with my Christianity? Well, not lightly or easily, I assure you, LOL. But it basically boils down to that I don't think abortion is great, I'd certainly never suggest it as a first line solution, BUT I do believe that it is a private enough decision that it should be up to the woman.
Also, because there is such a varying degree of what people believe about when life begins and is worth saving that I believe since we don't really have a consistent consensus as a public that we should allow for the most freedom in choice for those who believe differently.
Does that make any sense?
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RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 11/5/2008 12:33:38 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
In the first trimester of a pregnancy, I'm not sure how soon one would call it life.
Scientists have offered the big bang theory for the creation of the universe. It's the same thing for the creation of life. Sperm meets egg and bang, life begins.
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RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 11/5/2008 2:01:25 PM
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Ps103
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Please note that this thread is not meant to be a debate. It is solely for those Christians who consider themselves to be Pro-choice to explain to the OP their views on the matter.
Thank you.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 11/8/2008 2:46:45 AM
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tenfour
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
No sin is worse than another in God's eyes. It's all vile to Him.
Can you explain this statement? It seems very intuitive to me that some sins are far worse than others. Doesn't your gut tell you that it is worse to murder someone than it is to steal an apple from him?
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RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 11/8/2008 4:12:36 AM
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Child4Jesus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
I'll take a chance a weigh in as a pro-choice person who considers herself a Christian. I want to make it clear that I am pro-CHOICE not pro abortion, meaning that I am ok with it being legal and allowing women to make the choice of whether to terminate a pregnancy or not. Also, I have no problem with regulating the abortion industry in line with what is allowed in Roe v Wade. Basically that means that any restriction needs to allow exceptions for not only the life but also the health of the mother.
How do I square this with my Christianity? Well, not lightly or easily, I assure you, LOL. But it basically boils down to that I don't think abortion is great, I'd certainly never suggest it as a first line solution, BUT I do believe that it is a private enough decision that it should be up to the woman.
Also, because there is such a varying degree of what people believe about when life begins and is worth saving that I believe since we don't really have a consistent consensus as a public that we should allow for the most freedom in choice for those who believe differently.
Does that make any sense?
I will weigh in and say I pro-life. I bold those two parts because they can be vague especially the health thing. What does health of the mother mean exactly? Also saying it should be up to the woman. What does that mean? What about married women?
Even though I am pro-life, I will say that if it comes down to the rare occasion of if the woman gives birth, her and the baby will die, I will those of the woman to live.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 11/8/2008 7:35:53 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
Can you explain this statement? It seems very intuitive to me that some sins are far worse than others. Doesn't your gut tell you that it is worse to murder someone than it is to steal an apple from him?
No sin is a little ok. God doesn't allow a "little" sin. Man justifies sin by saying one is worse than another. It eases man to say it was just a white lie or I did it for this reason or that reason. We have a tendency to justify the sin in our live's because we don't want to change, we don't want to have to give up certain pet sins, so we tell ourselves it's not that bad of a sin compared to abortion or compared to murder of an adult. Certain sins carry far more weight to humans than they do to God.
All sin is abominable to Him, that's why He died for ALL sin.
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RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 11/8/2008 10:12:00 AM
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Heavendweller
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
No sin is a little ok. God doesn't allow a "little" sin. Man justifies sin by saying one is worse than another. It eases man to say it was just a white lie or I did it for this reason or that reason. We have a tendency to justify the sin in our live's because we don't want to change, we don't want to have to give up certain pet sins, so we tell ourselves it's not that bad of a sin compared to abortion or compared to murder of an adult. Certain sins carry far more weight to humans than they do to God.
All sin is abominable to Him, that's why He died for ALL sin.
Dear DD,
While all sin is rebellion against God, not all sin has the same effect upon the soul. If I "jay walk" by disobeying the sign that tells me not to do it, I may get a ticket and have to pay a fine. But my relationship with the Lord will not be drastically offended.
If I deliberately murder my neighbor because I am envious of them, my soul will suffer horribly for committing such a deplorable act. My actions will have consequences upon my thinking processes and the way in which I respond to others and especially to God. It isn't as though I can say, "God I just murdered a person. Please forgive me," and then all will we well and I will be forgiven. Not at all. Instead, I will be arrested, charged for having commit a crime, and stand before a court of my peers to answer for the crime I committed. And most likely be found guilty of murder and suffer incarceration.
Various sins are of such a grievous nature that they severe the fellowship we have with Christ, unless we repent and make compensation and restitution. For example, if one commits adultery and thinks that just saying "sorry" to their spouse will make everything better, they have another thought coming. As kids in nursery school say, "Sorry doesn't cut it." That's because those who commit sins of a grievous and mortal nature need to do as John the Baptist stated to the Pharisees, "Do the deeds that befit repentance."
As to why some Christians defend abortion, the anwers as I have said previously, are many. I tried as best as possible to state some of these reasons objectively without asserting my personal opinion. However, since I defend the pro-life position from the moment of conception till death, I will give my personal opinion for what it's worth.
I think many Christians do not explore and examine the issues deeply and thorougly enough in light of Holy Scripture, in light of the Christian Church's overall teaching for the past 2,000 years, and in light of the actual meaning/definition of abortion. This is to say, many don't explore and educate themselves as to what actually occurs during the abortion procedure. After having viewed many films, read much literature that the medical profession has written on the subject, and studied what both sides have said about the issue, I arrived at my current position.
The term "abortion" has lost its shock effect just like violence on tv has become common place.
Heavendweller
Heavendweller
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RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 11/8/2008 10:55:44 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1942
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quote:
"God I just murdered a person. Please forgive me," and then all will we well and I will be forgiven. Not at all. Instead, I will be arrested, charged for having commit a crime, and stand before a court of my peers to answer for the crime I committed. And most likely be found guilty of murder and suffer incarceration.
If true repentance is sought all will be forgiven....
That does not mean that God wipes away the consequences of our actions.
Any and all sin separate us from God.
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RE: Pro-choice AND Christian - Please explain - 11/8/2008 1:46:36 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 458
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
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quote:
Can you explain this statement? It seems very intuitive to me that some sins are far worse than others. Doesn't your gut tell you that it is worse to murder someone than it is to steal an apple from him?
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
No sin is a little ok. God doesn't allow a "little" sin. Man justifies sin by saying one is worse than another. It eases man to say it was just a white lie or I did it for this reason or that reason. We have a tendency to justify the sin in our lives because we don't want to change, we don't want to have to give up certain pet sins, so we tell ourselves it's not that bad of a sin compared to abortion or compared to murder of an adult. Certain sins carry far more weight to humans than they do to God.
All sin is abominable to Him, that's why He died for ALL sin.
It isn't about justification. It's about reality. True some people justify themselves by saying my sin isn't as bad as that other guy. However when you compare someone stealing a candy bar from CVS and someone killing another person that is not the same kind of thing in the least.
I mean look at the level of punishment for certain sins in the law. A man has sex with another man both a stoned to death.
Exodus 22
Responsibility for Property
1 “If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and slaughters it or sells it, he shall restore five oxen for an ox and four sheep for a sheep. 2 If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. 3 If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. He should make full restitution; if he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.
It is clear that homosexuality and theft are both sins but he punishment level is way different. One is death and the other is just paying back.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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Is it because you do not see the unborn as "full" human beings? Something other than people, or not quite people?
