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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/10/2008 1:10:02 PM
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coco101032003
Posts: 13
Joined: 10/1/2008
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quote:
wasn't "judging" anyone....UGH!....I am SO SORRY I brought up an EXAMPLE of how someone CAN go through MANY MANY months of NO INCOME, and yet, NOT HAVE a FORECLOSURE sign out in their front yard!!!!!!!!
Go ahead....keep on doing things your way.....my "experience" doesn't matter....and, if a foreclosure comes your way (due to the lack of a job for just a few months), you can't say I didn't warn you.
and, yet, when the foreclosure guy DOES COME, people blame EVERYONE but themselves....
And my point is others go through things too!! Who arent as smart as you and did not do what you did!!! Great for you but come on to you are still saying they should have to pay consequences and I am not disagreeing but this is how the world is.
So, what am I to do as a "christian".......not give my self "proper planning".....say "I can't control what happens"....and, when that "pink slip comes", and I am totally unprepared for it.......just "call it a loss"?
is that really good stewardship for what God has given us? {quote}
What i was saying is that you cant control other people and their finances in this great country we live in!!! You only do what is best for you and your family and hope for the best for everyone else.
OH c'mon....no the ill child thing hasn't....but, we weren't TALKING ABOUT THAT....we were talking about LONG PERIODS of UNEMPLOYMENT....and that HAS happened to me.....TWICE!!!!! (and, yet, we have NEVER been close to losing our home)....
WHY? We bought a home that we could EASILY afford (was not a strain on the budget whatsover)......and, one that would allow for proper planning for those MANY MONTHS when there was NO MONEY/INCOME coming in. {quote}
Well it could happen and that familly you know is fortunate but there are so many more that arent stable bacause of a sick child. I know we werent talking about this but you mentioned something that happened to you when you were unemployed so I brought this up as a what if because we dont know EVERYONE's situation and WHY they aren't able to pay for theit home. Just looking at both sides.
Planning properly ALSO includes putting in a contingency plan for WHEN that job might suddenly end. FAR too many people ASSUME that the "cash flow" from that job will NEVER end...and, regardless of the multitudes of people out there who BEG PEOPLE to PLEASE "Save for a rainy day!!!!!", they do not..... {quote}
I totally agree.... and think the olny answeris they absolutely are going to have to be very strict on who gets financed for a home!!!
The TAXPAYERS.
On another note I don't think people want to be rewarded who do right. I think they feel like they get punished for doing right.
No one in America should get their principal on their home reduced. I am all for negotiating the interest rate as long as the bank wants to go along with it.
When homes became an investment then the risk of the investment loosing money is just like any other. Sometimes the investment looses money sometimes it makes money. {quote}
I am sorry I meant us not government.... I totally agree with this especially because we do live in america and unfortunately its like a game. some win some lose....
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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/10/2008 1:17:28 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 617
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
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quote:
I totally agree.... and think the olny answeris they absolutely are going to have to be very strict on who gets financed for a home!!!
If the housing prices come to a realistic price then this shouldn't be a problem. People need to have a minimum 20% down payment for a house in my view but you can't do that realistically when you live in some housing markets when the average price of a home is 475k or even higher is some regions. I hope we allow the housing market to bottom out, so people can realistically afford the homes.
G
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It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/10/2008 1:27:33 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1358
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
And my point is others go through things too!! Who arent as smart as you and did not do what you did!!! Great for you but come on to you are still saying they should have to pay consequences and I am not disagreeing but this is how the world is.
so, then, what IS the "proper" thing to do when someone goes for MONTHS without paying the mortgage on their home? Should banks just be "nice", and let them stay in it (while they lose money because you're not making payments?)....and, end up having to charge OTHERS more, because some people are not paying?
there SHOULD be consequences for someone who does NOT pay their mortage......if there weren't, all chaos would break out....
the "consequences" for not paying a mortgage are spelled out IN DETAIL when you sign the papers. you agree to those terms....(IF those terms are changed or manipulated because of fraud by the lender, that's one thing...a totally separate issue)....
that's how the world is....and has been pretty much since mortgages have been in existence.
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/10/2008 1:53:48 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4219
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You don't even need to read the contract to know that if you don't pay your mortgage, you don't keep your house. It's not a difficult concept.
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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/10/2008 2:25:54 PM
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coco101032003
Posts: 13
Joined: 10/1/2008
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quote:
so, then, what IS the "proper" thing to do when someone goes for MONTHS without paying the mortgage on their home? Should banks just be "nice", and let them stay in it (while they lose money because you're not making payments?)....and, end up having to charge OTHERS more, because some people are not paying?
I dont know what the answer is here. I do not think they should charge anyone else for something someone else has done to themselves. Unfortunately this is exactly what they are doing and others are going to suffer. This should not happen and it would be great if they could leave all others who are paying on time alone. But they probably aren't and the only thing I am going to do is hope for the best and pray it works out for everyone involved.
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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/10/2008 2:50:24 PM
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reach
Posts: 1339
Joined: 4/12/2005
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I agree it is simple.
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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/10/2008 3:13:29 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
quote:
I totally agree.... and think the olny answeris they absolutely are going to have to be very strict on who gets financed for a home!!!
If the housing prices come to a realistic price then this shouldn't be a problem. People need to have a minimum 20% down payment for a house in my view but you can't do that realistically when you live in some housing markets when the average price of a home is 475k or even higher is some regions. I hope we allow the housing market to bottom out, so people can realistically afford the homes.
G
To some degree yes, to some degree no. 10% down or even 5% down loans can be ok - IF a) they are priced appropriately by b) financial institutions who understand the risk and can manage the assets with sufficient equity capital to backstop them, and c) they are made to appropriate borrowers in appropriate markets.
In the current crisis, we blew up because the wrong insitutions made the wrong loans to to the wrong people in the wrong markets. We pretty much messed up on every critical point of effective risk management.
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“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/10/2008 3:14:38 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 617
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
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Yep.
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It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/10/2008 5:40:04 PM
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Random
Posts: 1039
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Zipperhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
On another note I don't think people want to be rewarded who do right. I think they feel like they get punished for doing right.
Exactly. I honored my commitment, including bringing $60K cash to closing to SELL my house. I had to cash in an IRA to come up with that much cash. When I tried to talk to the lender they wouldn't help me unless I defaulted. All I wanted was for them to convert the unpaid balance to a personal loan, or even let them use my new house as collateral -- I wasn't asking for a reduction in balance or even a lowering of the interest rate. They wouldn't/couldn't do that, but if I stopped paying on the loan then they would work with me. That is beyond ridiculous.
But, even so, I did it because I agreed to pay off the loan and I was honoring my commitment. I don't want to be rewarded for that, but I also don't want to spend ONE PENNY of the little bit of money I have left to pay for other people's debts that they are walking away from.
I will pay for my problems, or I will pay for other people's but not both.
_____________________________
"That which has always been accepted by everyone, everywhere, is almost certain to be false." -- Valery
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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/10/2008 6:11:09 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Random
quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
On another note I don't think people want to be rewarded who do right. I think they feel like they get punished for doing right.
Exactly. I honored my commitment, including bringing $60K cash to closing to SELL my house. I had to cash in an IRA to come up with that much cash. When I tried to talk to the lender they wouldn't help me unless I defaulted. All I wanted was for them to convert the unpaid balance to a personal loan, or even let them use my new house as collateral -- I wasn't asking for a reduction in balance or even a lowering of the interest rate. They wouldn't/couldn't do that, but if I stopped paying on the loan then they would work with me. That is beyond ridiculous.
But, even so, I did it because I agreed to pay off the loan and I was honoring my commitment. I don't want to be rewarded for that, but I also don't want to spend ONE PENNY of the little bit of money I have left to pay for other people's debts that they are walking away from.
I will pay for my problems, or I will pay for other people's but not both.
FYI - the inflexibility you experienced on the part of your lender may not actually have been the lender's fault. In most cases, the lender only services the loan. They usually don't own it anymore. Usually the loan has been sold. Current accounting rules mandate that if a bank wants to treat a loan sale as a sale and get it off their books, then they have to service the loan strictly in accordance with the servicing agreement. The servicing agreement itself has to be fairly "brain dead" - i.e. able to make no material decisions other than those spelled out in the servicing agreement.
Long story short - it's stupid, but blame the accountants. They've set up a system where even smart decisions to help out borrowers can not be made. In all likelihood, your lender's hands were tied by legal contracts created by stupid accounting rules.
Makes no sense, but there it is.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/11/2008 7:24:22 PM
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Pamsy
Posts: 198
Joined: 5/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
Is anyone else really angry at the concept of defaulted/defaulting "homeowners" being able to renegotiate their interest rates and principal thanks to this bailout? So because I bought a house I could afford, made the necessary sacrifices to be sure that I could continue to afford it as my taxes and insurance went through the roof the last few years, I get to continue paying full price on my home where my neighbor (hypothetical) who never should've been able to get in the house in the first place, has been delinquent and behind on the mortgage for months, now gets to work down to a better interest rate and potentiall even negotiate down the principal on that loan?!?! Is anyone else just about to scream over this? I could just not pay my mortgage for a few months and get bailed out! Is that what people will do? It's tempting.
No, im not. I never understood why someone would get so mad. If they didnt get a bailout on there mortgages, nothing would change in your situation anyways, or mine. Nothing has changed for us. We would still have what we have. And we stillhave what we have with a bailout of somesort.
When I hear that , I think of that story in the bible of the man getting the same wage who was hired first as the ones who were hired at the end of the day and got the same wage for that day. They were mad that they worked hard in the hot sun all day and didnt get more that the ones who didnt. (now i might be upset about that) and the one who hired them asked if they were jsut jealous of his generosity. (quite frankly, i dont understand that comment)--but anyways, i always think of that scripture. Now i am really thinking about this, lol, why do we get mad aobut these things? Gee somthing to try and figure out.
Im sure tho that there are marks on there credit reports for the delinquent payments.
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1 Chorinthians 13 vs. 4-8. Love is patient, love is kind.......Love never fails."
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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/11/2008 8:34:37 PM
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Random
Posts: 1039
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Zipperhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Pamsy
No, im not. I never understood why someone would get so mad. If they didnt get a bailout on there mortgages, nothing would change in your situation anyways, or mine. Nothing has changed for us. We would still have what we have. And we still have what we have with a bailout of somesort.
It is incorrect to say nothing has changed for you. Your taxes will be going up at some point to pay for all of this. It's not free -- there is a cost to it, and that cost will be repaid through higher taxes. So, in a very real way YOU are paying for it, and so am I, and so is every other taxpayer.
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"That which has always been accepted by everyone, everywhere, is almost certain to be false." -- Valery
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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/11/2008 10:24:39 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 617
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
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quote:
When I hear that , I think of that story in the bible of the man getting the same wage who was hired first as the ones who were hired at the end of the day and got the same wage for that day.
This is not about wages. it's about a contract to pay for something that one knew over extended themselves in the first place.
Anyways I have a question, who determines a home value based on what?
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It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/12/2008 7:03:02 PM
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Pamsy
Posts: 198
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Whether or not the taxes go up depends on who makes it into office. the budget can be changed to account for this. It doesnt alwasy automatically mean higher taxes, it can mean cutting out other spending. I thought my comparison was pretty accurate because those who got hired at the end of the day practically got a free ride. Money for nothing. Just like those getting a bail out vs. those who worked hard at being financially prudent, maybe even working extra hours. And then lo and behold, the irrisponsible ones may get a better interest rate, and some people are ranting and raving over it, just like in the bible story, because they worked hard at being financially responsible. e.g. budgeting, sacrificing, etc.
Anyways, I'd think greater is your reward for bieng a good steward of the money God has given you.
Which is still something to think about, why getting so upset (aside from it possibly coming out of your taxes)--Are we adults or two year olds screaming over who got the bigger peice of candy.
< Message edited by Pamsy -- 10/12/2008 7:18:22 PM >
_____________________________
1 Chorinthians 13 vs. 4-8. Love is patient, love is kind.......Love never fails."
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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/12/2008 7:11:04 PM
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CindyM
Posts: 61
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Fortunately, CA is a single action state which limits a bank's ability to come at you personally for the excess of a mortgage over it's value.
CA is only non recourse for a purchase money mtg, a refi would need to be stated as non recourse.
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CM
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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/12/2008 9:46:56 PM
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Random
Posts: 1039
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Zipperhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Pamsy
Whether or not the taxes go up depends on who makes it into office. the budget can be changed to account for this. It doesnt alwasy automatically mean higher taxes, it can mean cutting out other spending.
Which is still something to think about, why getting so upset (aside from it possibly coming out of your taxes)--Are we adults or two year olds screaming over who got the bigger peice of candy.
Whether taxes or go up or spending is cut, the effect is the same. The government spent $700 billion it didn't have on a program that won't do what it says. It got that money from taxes paid by people like you and me, so it is our money they are spending on this bailout that won't even accomplish anything. The money has to come from somewhere, so it is a real cost.
As regards your second point -- why so angry? I am angry because I spent over $60K to SELL my house, meaning I brought that much cash to closing. That is on top of paying a mortgage on a house I didn't live in for an entire year. Come to find out I should have just mailed in the keys and walked away like everyone else, because apparently there is no value to honoring your commitments.
I am angry because we are being asked to bear the cost for everyone else, after I already bore the cost for myself on my own without asking for a bailout. Do you think people like me will do the same thing next time? Or will they mail in the keys figuring everyone else is, so why not? After all, someone will bail them out, so it doesn't hurt anything.
This bailout sets a horrible precedent, and just deepens the risk that people walk away from their debts.
_____________________________
"That which has always been accepted by everyone, everywhere, is almost certain to be false." -- Valery
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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/12/2008 9:48:35 PM
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Random
Posts: 1039
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Zipperhead
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Pamsy
Whether or not the taxes go up depends on who makes it into office. the budget can be changed to account for this. It doesnt alwasy automatically mean higher taxes, it can mean cutting out other spending. I thought my comparison was pretty accurate because those who got hired at the end of the day practically got a free ride. Money for nothing. Just like those getting a bail out vs. those who worked hard at being financially prudent, maybe even working extra hours. And then lo and behold, the irrisponsible ones may get a better interest rate, and some people are ranting and raving over it, just like in the bible story, because they worked hard at being financially responsible. e.g. budgeting, sacrificing, etc.
Anyways, I'd think greater is your reward for bieng a good steward of the money God has given you.
Which is still something to think about, why getting so upset (aside from it possibly coming out of your taxes)--Are we adults or two year olds screaming over who got the bigger peice of candy.
P.S. Your comparison would only be accurate if the owner took money from those who worked all day to pay the guys who showed up at the last minute, because that is EXACTLY what is happening here.
_____________________________
"That which has always been accepted by everyone, everywhere, is almost certain to be false." -- Valery
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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/12/2008 10:48:41 PM
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relady
Posts: 1279
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
CA is only non recourse for a purchase money mtg, a refi would need to be stated as non recourse. In most states like this, any first mortgage is considered non-recourse. Of course, it's always good to know what the laws are in your state.  It's when you get into the junior (2nd) mortgages that it gets really nasty. they will allow the senior lender to take back the home and sell it for just enough to pay off the senior mortgage and then the 2nd lienholder will come after the borrower for the full amount of the mortgage. They aren't even required by law to try and mitigate their damages. That, however, is being tried in court and borrowers are winning some of those lawsuits. I expect more to follow.
quote:
Come to find out I should have just mailed in the keys and walked away like everyone else, because apparently there is no value to honoring your commitments. Well, the value to you would be that you saved your credit score. Had you mailed in the keys or done a short sale, the effect to your credit would have been the same....trashed for a few years. Not everyone has the money to bring to the table in order to sell their home. What would you suggest that someone do in that case?
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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/12/2008 11:08:18 PM
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truthrevealed
Posts: 312
Joined: 12/6/2007
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Question for those of you who have done it right!!! To whom or what do you credit for not finding yourselves in the situation of those you feel were irresponsible?
BTW, haven't been a homeowner myself........YET  !!!
ETA: would you state whether you are a christian as well?
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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/13/2008 6:28:01 AM
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Random
Posts: 1039
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Zipperhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
Well, the value to you would be that you saved your credit score. Had you mailed in the keys or done a short sale, the effect to your credit would have been the same....trashed for a few years. Not everyone has the money to bring to the table in order to sell their home. What would you suggest that someone do in that case?
I had already purchased my new home, so frankly what do I care if my credit score is trashed for a few years? I don't need credit if I already have a mortgage, and don't plan on buying a car. If I don't change jobs I don't even need a good credit score since no one will be running it.
Credit scores are important, but are they worth paying $60K to preserve? In addition, I have already heard talk that people with only one ding on their report, if it's due to the mortgage mess, might get some kind of leniency in terms of their credit score. Nothing official, just people talking, but it is possible.
Lastly, I didn't "have" the money to bring either. I had to cash in an IRA, and pay all of the associated taxes AND penalties. That's right, you can take money out of an IRA penalty free for medical bills, PURCHASING a home, or going to school, but if you take it out to SELL your home, there is no provision to avoid the penalty. Shouldn't something like that have been in the bailout bill, to at least pretend to care about those people who did the right thing? Or shouldn't I have been able to at least deduct the loss on the sale of my home? I am not asking for a bailout, but it would be nice if the government didn't actively make it harder to do the right thing.
And to add insult to injury, I have just discovered that the extra "income" I received this year, in the form of cashing out my IRA to pay off the balance kicks me into the AMT. So not only did I have to pay the 10% penalty, I have to pay an additional $4K in AMT. Mailing in the keys is sounding better all the time.
_____________________________
"That which has always been accepted by everyone, everywhere, is almost certain to be false." -- Valery
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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/13/2008 6:30:26 AM
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Random
Posts: 1039
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Zipperhead
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P.S. During the entire time this was going on defaulting on the mortgage was never something I even considered. It never crossed my mind that I should do that. And had I known the bailout was coming, and that someone else would have to pay if I did walk away, it STILL would not have crossed my mind.
But I guarantee you there are a lot of people who, next time around, will be quicker to mail in the keys, now that we have set the precedent that the government will step up and do it for you.
_____________________________
"That which has always been accepted by everyone, everywhere, is almost certain to be false." -- Valery
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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/13/2008 6:34:46 AM
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Random
Posts: 1039
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Zipperhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: truthrevealed
Question for those of you who have done it right!!! To whom or what do you credit for not finding yourselves in the situation of those you feel were irresponsible?
BTW, haven't been a homeowner myself........YET !!!
ETA: would you state whether you are a christian as well?
It is not a matter of not finding yourself in that position, it is a matter of not using that an an excuse to stop paying. I found myself in the same position as those who did not pay, I just found a way to pay.
I owned a house that was worth less than the mortgage, and I had recently moved and bought another house, so it was a house I wasn't even living in. I paid on that mortgage for a year before I finally got a lowball offer and accepted it because there were no signs of a recovery any time soon. That is no different from the thousands or millions of people who mailed in the keys.
We all found ourselves in the same situation, it was how we reacted to it that was different.
I am a Christian, but I don't think that played any role in honoring my commitment. I think I would have done the same thing if I was not a Christian, although it's impossible to know for sure.
_____________________________
"That which has always been accepted by everyone, everywhere, is almost certain to be false." -- Valery
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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/13/2008 2:10:39 PM
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truthrevealed
Posts: 312
Joined: 12/6/2007
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Thanks, Random, for responding. The position that I'm referring to is exactly what you stated, you found yourself having to make a choice....right?(or in your words a 'reaction') To whom or what do you give credit for making the decision you did? And for having the ability to make that decision?(because you stated you 'found' a way to pay) .
This question is for anyone who wants to answer.
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RE: Mortgage renegotiation - so angry! - 10/13/2008 4:34:45 PM
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relady
Posts: 1279
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: offline
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quote:
And to add insult to injury, I have just discovered that the extra "income" I received this year, in the form of cashing out my IRA to pay off the balance kicks me into the AMT. So not only did I have to pay the 10% penalty, I have to pay an additional $4K in AMT. Mailing in the keys is sounding better all the time. And perhaps now you see why people will do that instead. It really sucks that you had to bring that much to the table, I am truly sorry to hear that. We had to cash is my hubby's 401(k) when he was laid off a few years ago. We are still paying the IRS for the taxes generated out of that. But yeah, we probably should have filed BK, but it just never occurred to us. I know if we had, we would be much better off right now than we are (financially). Again, I am truly sorry that you had to bring so much to the table to get rid of your home - being in real estate, I WOULD have thought of letting the bank have it, and I probably would have let the bank take it rather than throw my retirement money into it.
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But I guarantee you there are a lot of people who, next time around, will be quicker to mail in the keys, now that we have set the precedent that the government will step up and do it for you. Well, no one is getting bailed out yet, except for the wall street bunch. But I guarantee you if the government does end up renegotiating mortages for people those people will end up paying for it on the other end when they sell. They'll most likely have to give a good portion of their profit to the government, should there be a profit. You know the government isn't going to give with one hand without taking it back with the other.
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PRAISE THE LORD -- MY HUSBAND IS BACK FROM IRAQ