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RE: Secular music sucks - 10/10/2008 1:17:28 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2543
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
What man's junk is another man's gold! Music is a a subjective thing. What one person thinks is the greatest artist/band in the universe is nails on a blackboard to another.
Oh, I'm not saying that some music, even poorly produced music, can't be enjoyed by some people. But there is still a measure of skill/talent that can be obvious to any listener. By way of example, most rap music I've heard (which, I admit, is a relatively small amount) does not have a great deal of musical talent being demonstrated (arguably there is lyrical talent there, but that is, in my opinion, distinct from musical talent). Similarly, singers/groups that rely on machines to "fix" their vocals don't demonstrate great musical ability - they demonstrate access to fancy equipment.
Some music is just formulaic. You can tell that the performer is putting together the song because they know it will sell, not because they were moved to write it. That doesn't mean that people can't enjoy it. I'm sure that some of the songs I enjoy listening to would fall into that category. However, that doesn't make it good music. Or to put it another way - I enjoy eating at Taco Bell, but that doesn't make it good Mexican food.
I actually agree with you and I'm sorry if you felt I was taking issue with what you said.
Sometimes, I just have to accept that people like artists/groups I think are inane. I don't understand why they do but I have to just accept that my junk music is some person's favorite. I've learned that people identify themselves with their music to a point that if you don't like their music they take it as you don't like them!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Secular music sucks - 10/10/2008 1:39:24 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
I actually agree with you and I'm sorry if you felt I was taking issue with what you said.
No worries. : ) I'm not the kind of person who automatically assumes disagreement = contention. If everyone agreed, the world would be a boring place, right? But thanks for letting me know.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Secular music sucks - 10/12/2008 7:22:35 PM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 17768
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Just Outside of Boston
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Restored_Heart
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: gtrdave
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
BTW, a lot - and I mean a LOT - of the old hymns took their music from "secular" songs, even barroom music.
This is actually being proven to have been nothing more than a myth:
The confusion possibly comes from the songs of that era being written in "bar style"...a type of Medieval poetry...as opposed to being written to a "bar tune"...a song for local drunkards to croon at the pub.
I get a different story from reading from the links you provided. And people did not always go to all "bars" to get drunk and bawdy. There were even coffee bars in Mozart's day.
But the main point is that many, many hymns took their music from "secular" songs - and popular "secular" songs have long been sung or played in pubs & bars for ages.
BTW, having been a music major, I'm not overly confused about the use of the term barroom or bars when I use them.
Reading y'all's discussion reminded me of this song by Glad...
Glad - that hymn thing
WOW, someone actually found this online, thanks!
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RE: Secular music sucks - 10/18/2008 11:47:16 PM
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Nakedprey
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Joined: 5/10/2008
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This is an ancient argument that pretty much holds no validity whatsoever. Bottom line is, there are far more artistically relevant, creative and prolific artists in the secular realm. I've explored both realms and I'm pretty convinced I've hit a wall as far as CCM is concerned, but in secular music - I feel as if I have barely gotten started.
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RE: Secular music sucks - 10/19/2008 6:27:29 AM
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Silverstring
Posts: 127
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Norway
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nakedprey
This is an ancient argument that pretty much holds no validity whatsoever. Bottom line is, there are far more artistically relevant, creative and prolific artists in the secular realm. I've explored both realms and I'm pretty convinced I've hit a wall as far as CCM is concerned, but in secular music - I feel as if I have barely gotten started.
Given that the argument is ancient, I think artist and composers like
Antonio Vivaldi
J.S.Bach
Georg F.Haendel
Joseph Haydn
Felix Mendelssohn
Olivier Messiaen and
Sofia Gubaidulina
should be included.
Music made and performed by Christians is quite a bit more then what's on CCM.
_____________________________
Everything worth something costs something
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RE: Secular music sucks - 10/19/2008 10:27:41 AM
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gaylel1
Posts: 1148
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southern California, the land of Fruit and nuts...
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Think of it this way--without gospel music, there would not be any secular music.
This is true-check out your history.
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Hear "The Truth" with the "other" Jeff Johnson(http://www.calvarydowney.org)
Visit me at http//:www.gayleplace.blogspot.com or http://www.myspace.com/gaylel121
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RE: Secular music sucks - 10/19/2008 1:08:12 PM
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Hayseed
Posts: 522
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gaylel1
Think of it this way--without gospel music, there would not be any secular music.
This is true-check out your history.
Absolutely true. Unfortunately, church-people threw a lot of those young kids they inspired out the doors for their music.
"Secular" or "Christian" musicians deal with the problem of getting "signed" to a label that in turn, usually, will then start "grooming them for success" in the narrow market of that label. Fortunately, there are labels out there (usually the small startups) that realize that a musician is there for doing what it is they do in the first place and not to be changed to sell units.
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My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Secular music sucks - 10/21/2008 7:22:42 PM
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wbporter
Posts: 81
Joined: 9/23/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Silverstring
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nakedprey
This is an ancient argument that pretty much holds no validity whatsoever. Bottom line is, there are far more artistically relevant, creative and prolific artists in the secular realm. I've explored both realms and I'm pretty convinced I've hit a wall as far as CCM is concerned, but in secular music - I feel as if I have barely gotten started.
Given that the argument is ancient, I think artist and composers like
Antonio Vivaldi
J.S.Bach
Georg F.Haendel
Joseph Haydn
Felix Mendelssohn
Olivier Messiaen and
Sofia Gubaidulina
should be included.
Music made and performed by Christians is quite a bit more then what's on CCM.
A men! I've played or sung something by everyone on that list except Sofia. Just heard part of a viola concerto by her within the last few minutes, but nothing screamed "I've got to hear that again."
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Pacem.
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RE: Secular music sucks - 10/21/2008 9:25:35 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2543
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gaylel1
Think of it this way--without gospel music, there would not be any secular music.
This is true-check out your history.
Classical Music would not exist? Bagpipe and drum core? German drinking songs or oompah music? Mariachi music? Strauss waltzes? Military marches? Although influential it's just one piece of the puzzle my friend!
Besides it grew out of jazz and blues! Secular music!
< Message edited by mapachito13 -- 10/21/2008 9:32:02 PM >
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Secular music sucks - 10/22/2008 9:44:35 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2031
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nakedprey
This is an ancient argument that pretty much holds no validity whatsoever. Bottom line is, there are far more artistically relevant, creative and prolific artists in the secular realm. I've explored both realms and I'm pretty convinced I've hit a wall as far as CCM is concerned, but in secular music - I feel as if I have barely gotten started.
I think part of the reason for this is that there are a lot more creative outlets and venues available to secular musicians than there are to Christian musicians. Every town has at least a couple bars that have live bands (even if they're just cover bands), but "good Christians" don't play there. How many churches host musicians that aren't the in-house praise band? And when they do host outside bands, they're still likely to fall into the same bland CCM mold.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Secular music sucks - 10/26/2008 10:42:26 AM
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MusicianDad
Posts: 425
Joined: 3/29/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
I think part of the reason for this is that there are a lot more creative outlets and venues available to secular musicians than there are to Christian musicians. Every town has at least a couple bars that have live bands (even if they're just cover bands), but "good Christians" don't play there. How many churches host musicians that aren't the in-house praise band? And when they do host outside bands, they're still likely to fall into the same bland CCM mold.
-Dan.
Very true, although both of my kids who play at church, also play at bars. They do it whith the same guys they play at church with. It's cool when they do the "we're a worship team and here's some of the songs we play at church" set. Yes, you can witness to people anywhere.
_____________________________
Heartland Rocks!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EK9opsMo0jg
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RE: Secular music sucks - 11/11/2008 10:32:53 AM
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nealmorsefan
Posts: 342
Joined: 10/18/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nakedprey
I've explored both realms and I'm pretty convinced I've hit a wall as far as CCM is concerned, but in secular music - I feel as if I have barely gotten started.
I would argue that you have not explored Christian music enough.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nakedprey
Bottom line is, there are far more artistically relevant, creative and prolific artists in the secular realm.
Thank you for proving my point.
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RE: Secular music sucks - 11/15/2008 2:13:45 AM
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JumpyJimmy
Posts: 3
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nealmorsefan
Christians in general are less sophisticated or less intelligent than your average heathen. Do you really believe that? Is there something about salvation that shrinkens the creative part of your brain? C'mon, secular music snob.
I suppose it depends on your thought process. Many christians I have met tend to stop thinking when they get to the alter to pray. God gave you a brain so use it.
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RE: Secular music sucks - 11/25/2008 11:06:29 AM
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nealmorsefan
Posts: 342
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JumpyJimmy
quote:
ORIGINAL: nealmorsefan
Christians in general are less sophisticated or less intelligent than your average heathen. Do you really believe that? Is there something about salvation that shrinkens the creative part of your brain? C'mon, secular music snob.
I suppose it depends on your thought process. Many christians I have met tend to stop thinking when they get to the alter to pray. God gave you a brain so use it.
Really JJ? And you have proof of this? What...did they start drooling and curl up into a fetal position as soon as they knelt down? Are you saying we can't have an intelligent, prayerful conversation with God? Assuming your statement is true about "many" Christians, I would encourage you to help the brain-dead realize their potential of conversation with God.
My OP however was about Christian music and not congregational prayer time. And it's ALTAR, not ALTER... /drool
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RE: Secular music sucks - 11/25/2008 3:50:07 PM
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GHitch
Posts: 273
Joined: 7/6/2008
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Music is sequential sound waves.
Secular vs Christian? Does anyone really believe God hears music as either than just music? The attempt of creation spurred on and inspired by the image of the Creator we all are?
Is your plumbing secular or Christian?
When you watch 'secular' movies are you being unchristian? Secular hamburgers?
The food you buy at the 'secular' grocery store, is it secular or Christian?
Is a sequence of chords like A D E secular or Christian?
Is "A flat minor" a secular or Christian chord?
Is the phrase "Don't step on my blue suede shoes" secular or Christian?
If one plays the first 100 notes of Paganini's 24th Caprice rather than the 1st 100 notes of Yes' Heart of the Sunrise, is one more Christian than the other?
Put it this way music belongs to God. Technology belongs to God, Sound itself belongs to God. God is music (same sense as God is light).
So this whole, ages old, controversy over what is or is not Christian music is bogus 'problem' and a useless ploy of the enemy to distract us all from the real things.
I'd rather listen to "unsaved" Paul Gilbert play guitar than 3/4 of all the Christian guitarists I've heard (Phil Keaggy excepted of course ;-)
I'd rather listen to Beethovens' 6th than 7/8ths of all the cheap, broken record repetitious churchy tunes we all tend to sing ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
_____________________________
"The formation within geological time of a human body, by the laws of physics..., starting from a random distribution of elementary particles and the field, is as unlikely as the separation by chance of the atmosphere into its components." Kurt Godel
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RE: Secular music sucks - 11/25/2008 7:32:33 PM
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MusicianDad
Posts: 425
Joined: 3/29/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Silverstring
I've since become a "YES" - fan
Eggselent!
_____________________________
Heartland Rocks!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EK9opsMo0jg
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RE: Secular music sucks - 11/26/2008 3:43:14 PM
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Giggles56
Posts: 155
Joined: 8/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
Music is sequential sound waves.
Secular vs Christian? Does anyone really believe God hears music as either than just music? The attempt of creation spurred on and inspired by the image of the Creator we all are?
Is your plumbing secular or Christian?
When you watch 'secular' movies are you being unchristian? Secular hamburgers?
The food you buy at the 'secular' grocery store, is it secular or Christian?
Is a sequence of chords like A D E secular or Christian?
Is "A flat minor" a secular or Christian chord?
Is the phrase "Don't step on my blue suede shoes" secular or Christian?
If one plays the first 100 notes of Paganini's 24th Caprice rather than the 1st 100 notes of Yes' Heart of the Sunrise, is one more Christian than the other?
Put it this way music belongs to God. Technology belongs to God, Sound itself belongs to God. God is music (same sense as God is light).
So this whole, ages old, controversy over what is or is not Christian music is bogus 'problem' and a useless ploy of the enemy to distract us all from the real things.
I'd rather listen to "unsaved" Paul Gilbert play guitar than 3/4 of all the Christian guitarists I've heard (Phil Keaggy excepted of course ;-)
I'd rather listen to Beethovens' 6th than 7/8ths of all the cheap, broken record repetitious churchy tunes we all tend to sing ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
Amen, Amen. That was very well put.
_____________________________
If you see someone without a smile give them one of yours!!
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RE: Secular music sucks - 11/26/2008 5:42:07 PM
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DerWeg
Posts: 49
Joined: 11/5/2008
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For me, secular music is what I listen to when I want good melody. But when I'm in the mood for good lyrics (whis is most of the time), I of course turn on the Christian =] Then again there are some Christian bands like Delirious that have amazing melodies along with their lyrics.
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RE: Secular music sucks - 11/27/2008 7:50:34 AM
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wbporter
Posts: 81
Joined: 9/23/2005
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One of my favorite classical pieces is Meditation from Thais. There are no words (violin solo acc. by the orchestra), but in the opera, Thais (priestess of Venus) has just heard the Gospel message and is contemplating it in front of the curtain during a scene change. In a church service it works just before a prayer. However, what is its status for someone not familiar with the opera?
The symphonie phantastique mentioned a little earlier includes music from Dies Irae in a Requiem Mass (mass for the dead) for centuries in the Catholic Church FWIW.
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Pacem.
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RE: Secular music sucks - 11/27/2008 7:41:55 PM
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Silverstring
Posts: 127
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Norway
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Just home from playing Verdi's Requiem, very powerful stuff.
I play the meditation by Massenet quite often, it is a piece very well suited for contemplation or worship on the basis of the temperament of the music itself, not considering the context of the piece in the opera. It is very popular among violinists and also on secular classical concert programs. It seems many people have a very personal relation to the piece.
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Everything worth something costs something
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