The Jesus you cannot have (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Faith] >> General Faith >> FaithWalk - Protestants Only



Message

Liveloved -> The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 9:12:03 AM)

The Jesus you cannot have is a question/thought that is borne out of many different threads and comments that have been expressed here. These comments basically revolve around the life of Jesus that is not a part of our life. In other words, He did that or lived that way but we cannot, do not or should not.

I guess I am shocked out of my socks to think that there is a Jesus I cannot have, should not have or do not have according to others. . . yet I have Him, all the fulness of Deity dwelling in me and may be filled up to all the fulness of God. So something's wrong here.

I will share two examples that have come up recently and then I want to hear what you have to say. How much of the Godhead do you think we can have? is available to us? Are there parts of Jesus we cannot have?

One example involves knowing others as Jesus knows others, knowing the true needs of their hearts. Is this part of the Godhead denied to us? Is the Spirit unable/unwilling to impart this kind of knowing to us?

Another example involves love. We are commanded to love one another, just as He has loved us. He laid down His life for us and we are told "you are My friends, if you do what I command you." Yet it has been stated in numerous ways/threads that that is what Jesus did and not what we are to do. So I ask, is this another part of the Godhead denied to us? are we unable/denied the opportunity to love as Jesus loved and commanded us to love? Is the Spirit unable to impart this to us as well?

So I'm asking. Who is the Jesus you cannot have? Your thoughts. . .



techne -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 9:45:26 AM)

we are supposed to be conformed to the image of christ (as process and fact), so i would have to say that it is certainly the goal that we should walk, talk, think, act as jesus did and does. we may do that more or less well, depending on the day...[:)]



Little_1 -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 9:46:20 AM)

Very good thread [8|]

A thought which this post brings to my mind is: "I have all of Jesus" However, this is followed by the question: "but does Jesus have all of me?"

I used to beat myself up by asking myself the question: "Would I be willing to die for Jesus?" and being honest, the reply from me was that I didn't want to consider it. I used to feel bad about brushing over this but I didn't want to have to think about it. I felt this was somehow wrong until God showed me that He will not give me the strength to lay down my life unless this is something He requires of me so I believe there is no point in me asking myself: "Would I lay down my life?" at this point in time because it is not relevant to my life at the present time and therefore I do not wish to dwell on the "what ifs" of the future but rather choose to live in today instead.

However, I do believe I have to face the opportunities which do present themselves in the present, e.g. opportunities to love others as Jesus would love them and which come my way of a daily basis.

So I guess the answers to your questions may actually depend on the opportunities which come our way during the course of our lives. I believe God can and will give us the grace to obey whatever He brings our way and so yes I do believe I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me but only as they 'actually' are apparent as being God's will.



JimboFletch -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 9:49:59 AM)

I can have all of Jesus and He can have all of me but, the fact remains, I cannot be Him.

That is the weak point of the WWJD craze. Jesus could and did do things beyond our ability (at least I've never seen anyone else walk on water or feed thousands with a few fish and biscuits). What Jesus Would Have Me Do (and be) is a more appropriate question.









[Edited to add "have" as 3rd word, first sentence]



sisrev -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 10:08:41 AM)

We are to be imitators of Christ, to be conformed to His image, but we are told plainly that "here we see darkly, but then face to face--here we know in part, but then we shall know as we are known".

He knows us fully, but I don't think we can know Him fully, in all of His omniscience and omnipresence and Divinity, because we are not omniscient or omnipresent or Divine.

Man looks on the outward, because that's all we can see. We don't have x-ray vision. The Spirit give us discernment, and He teaches us, but there are some things that I think cannot be fully comprehended because we have not obtained true perfection, and will not in this life.

We are cloaked in Him, but we are not Him.

Perhaps I don't fully understand the question of "is part of the Godhead denied to us?" It is not ours to "have"--I am His, and He is mine, but I am not Him.

As far as laying down our lives for others--to what extent is this referring? I think we need to be careful here. My dear grandmother related to me that she was praying fervently for the salvation of one her adult children, and was praying, "Lord I would give my life for her salvation" and He gently reminded her that He had already done so. Her sacrifice was not needed, because His sacrifice was enough.



ta_mosquito -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 10:15:01 AM)

I'd like to see the Scripture that says we have all the fullness of the deity dwelling within us. As far as I know, the only such Scripture is referring to Jesus (Philippians 2), and it's a proof of Jesus being God. If we think the same of ourselves, are we then thinking we're God, too?



buckifn -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 10:21:34 AM)

well one thing that came to mind first was a virgin mother...I don't think any of us will ever have that story to tell like Mary do you?

However, Jesus said greater works than these shall ye do, so I think we have all the power He had and then some because we have more resources and esp. technology to share the Good News.



JimboFletch -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 10:23:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito

I'd like to see the Scripture that says we have all the fullness of the deity dwelling within us. As far as I know, the only such Scripture is referring to Jesus (Philippians 2), and it's a proof of Jesus being God. If we think the same of ourselves, are we then thinking we're God, too?

Tricia, you believe that the born again are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, correct? If so, do you think we get something less than 100% of God the Holy Spirit? If so, how much?

I assume you referenced Colossians 2:9. I don't see the relevance.



ta_mosquito -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 10:32:04 AM)

Sure, we're indwelt by the Holy Spirit. But does that mean we're omniscient, for example? Does that mean we can know the thoughts and intents of others?

If so, why does God tell us that we cannot judge others' salvation? (James 4:11-12)

God gives some people the gift of discernment, but not everyone. God have some the gift of healing, etc., but not everyone. (1 Corinthians 12:28-31)



deliveredarling -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 10:35:21 AM)

For me personally, there are things that I can do that are Christ like-because He has given me the ability to do so. However, there are things I can not do because I am not Him. I can't do them because I was not destined to make the sacrifice that He made for each of us. That's a big dividing point between being like Him and being Him. We were never designed to do what Jesus did. We weren't sent here to die for the sins of mankind.

We can't do the things Jesus did because He is God. If we could, His sacrifice would be pointless. Following His example is the best we can do. Our stregth comes not from our own power, but from Him.

I can't lay down my life for another and offer that person salvation and forgiveness for sins. I can't lay down my life and give another redemption.

He's not denying us any part of Him. It's Him reminding us of Who He is, keeping us humble in our recognition.

Lucifer thought he could be God and do the things God does, well, we certainly know how that ends, don't we.

We are human and can only operate in the capacity that He allows in His will.



DaveW -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 10:40:18 AM)

I cannot die for the sins of another.



JimboFletch -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 10:41:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito

Sure, we're indwelt by the Holy Spirit. But does that mean we're omniscient, for example? Does that mean we can know the thoughts and intents of others?

I guess we're saying the same basic thing, then, when I wrote, "I can have all of Jesus and He can have all of me but, the fact remains, I cannot be Him."



ta_mosquito -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 10:45:58 AM)

Yeah, I had agreed with your first post and got confused when you questioned mine, LOL!



mvic -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 11:08:53 AM)

To be like Jesus, is impossible. He is God. We are not.

So, to use your two examples; "knowing others as Jesus does," or "to love one another as He loved us" is also a physical impossibility for us humans.

Jesus knows an individual totally. He knows his innermost feelings, his fears, hopes, motivation etc ... No matter how much we try, we cannot possibly know an individual like that.

Similarly, whilst we may strive to love our enemies, and those who hurt us, whilst we may strive to forgive them, as Jesus did on the Cross; there is a human limitation to our capability to love and to forgive.

God forbid any of us is ever pushed to the limits of hardship, pain, hurt and all that is evil that can be perpetrated by someone against us. But should that ever happen, we will know the physical limitations to our ability to love and forgive.

Thus, having established that we cannot possibly be like Jesus. That in itself shouldn't stop us from trying. Because that's what He commanded us to do.



Little_1 -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 11:15:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

I cannot die for the sins of another.


Some Christians do become Christian martyrs (although not dying for the sins of others as only Jesus can do this), yet dying bringing the good news of the gospel to others, e.g. Jim Elliot. This is the type of laying down ones life I was referring to in my earlier post.



Liveloved -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 11:41:02 AM)

quote:

quote: sisrev
We are to be imitators of Christ, to be conformed to His image, but we are told plainly that "here we see darkly, but then face to face--here we know in part, but then we shall know as we are known".

He knows us fully, but I don't think we can know Him fully, in all of His omniscience and omnipresence and Divinity, because we are not omniscient or omnipresent or Divine.

Man looks on the outward, because that's all we can see. We don't have x-ray vision. The Spirit give us discernment, and He teaches us, but there are some things that I think cannot be fully comprehended because we have not obtained true perfection, and will not in this life.


Oh, great responses! I'm not picking on sisrev (or that is certainly not my intention) but will use her thoughts to ask more questions. So thanks sisrev for being my guinea pig of sorts.

So let's talk about knowing in part from I Cor 13. Certainly our finite minds aren't capable of fully knowing all as the Godhead does. I am not talking omniscience. Although it is omniscience to a point---because don't you think we have the ability, the capacity to know all if we are indwelt by God? Isn't the 'knowing in part' or the limitation, if you will, part of the human condition that God is not willing to violate? He is able to give us any and all the information, knowledge we need for any and every situation. Do you agree?

And man looking on the outward because that is all he sees. Isn't this talking about natural man? Man apart from God? Does not the man who is indwelt by Christ have the ability to look on man as Christ does, see into and know men as Christ knows? Is He not able to give us that same insight into others?

And BTW, Tricia, it is Colossians 2:9-10 that says "For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form. and in Him you have been made complete" but this follows "as you have received Christ" meaning if we have Him, we have ALL. And Ephesians 3 speaks of our being "filled up to all the fulness of God". To me fulness means our potential to be filled to the max with God.[:)]

Edited to add sisrev quote.



Liveloved -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 11:46:30 AM)

quote:

quote: Dave W
I cannot die for the sins of another.


But is that what Christ is telling us when He commands us to love others as He loves in John 15? Are we missing His point by focusing on something else, choosing distraction? Would He tell us what love is, laying down one's life for another, if that was not relevant, something we could or should do?



Little_1 -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 2:17:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

He [God] is able to give us any and all the information, knowledge we need for any and every situation. Do you agree?


AMEN

Regarding John 15: If spreading the Gospel involved us laying down our lives (such as what happened to Jim Elliot), then God would give us the grace to do so at the point it was necessary (and not a moment too soon). This will not be the testimony of every Christian and nor should we dwell on such because God gives us grace for the moment and not for the future or something which may not ever happen.



ta_mosquito -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 2:20:02 PM)

He is able to give us all the information we NEED, but not necessarily all the information, period. That's God's prerogative.

My question is this: Does "all the fullness of God" mean all God's attributes, etc? I don't think we can use those passages to claim that God will make us know everything about a situation, person, etc.

And like I said before, we all don't have all of the spiritual gifts. Does that mean God is not giving us "all of Him"?



Liveloved -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 4:00:50 PM)

quote:


quote Little_1
Regarding John 15: If spreading the Gospel involved us laying down our lives (such as what happened to Jim Elliot), then God would give us the grace to do so at the point it was necessary (and not a moment too soon). This will not be the testimony of every Christian and nor should we dwell on such because God gives us grace for the moment and not for the future or something which may not ever happen.


The John 15 passage (at least what precedes the laying down) is not about spreading the gospel but about our abiding in Him and loving others. It is more about us and how we are to live, abiding and loving.

I think we are missing Jesus' meaning regarding laying down your life if we just dismiss this as something having to do with salvation. I cannot save anyone nor would I waste my energy trying. But I believe Jesus is telling us that love does lay down its life for others as He demonstrated by His sacrificial life---not just on Calvary but his life preceding as well.

IMO we can be so stuck in a particular context that we miss Jesus and what is being said. . . So your thoughts?



Liveloved -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 4:08:22 PM)

quote:


quote: Tricia
He is able to give us all the information we NEED, but not necessarily all the information, period. That's God's prerogative.

My question is this: Does "all the fullness of God" mean all God's attributes, etc? I don't think we can use those passages to claim that God will make us know everything about a situation, person, etc.

And like I said before, we all don't have all of the spiritual gifts. Does that mean God is not giving us "all of Him"?


I agree and think I said the same as your highlighted part. If we NEED the information, I believe He will provide it. And by 'need' I am referring to His being able to trust us with information to use for His purposes and that happens only as we die to self.

If we look at all the fulness of God in the context of the Colossians passage, it looks to me like it is a pretty complete package. I am not saying that that makes us God. But I am saying that we have ALL of Him. And the limitation is our humanity and, of course, our clinging to self rather than surrendering to His life.

And your point about giftedness is a point well taken IMO. He gave some to be eyes, some ears, etc which is why we need the connectedness so that together we can function more like Christ.



Little_1 -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 4:57:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

quote:


quote Little_1
Regarding John 15: If spreading the Gospel involved us laying down our lives (such as what happened to Jim Elliot), then God would give us the grace to do so at the point it was necessary (and not a moment too soon). This will not be the testimony of every Christian and nor should we dwell on such because God gives us grace for the moment and not for the future or something which may not ever happen.


The John 15 passage (at least what precedes the laying down) is not about spreading the gospel but about our abiding in Him and loving others. It is more about us and how we are to live, abiding and loving.

I think we are missing Jesus' meaning regarding laying down your life if we just dismiss this as something having to do with salvation. I cannot save anyone nor would I waste my energy trying. But I believe Jesus is telling us that love does lay down its life for others as He demonstrated by His sacrificial life---not just on Calvary but his life preceding as well.

IMO we can be so stuck in a particular context that we miss Jesus and what is being said. . . So your thoughts?


Being honest, I have not studied John 15; however, I can understand what you are saying regarding our abiding in Christ and loving others. [:)]

Regarding our "not being able to save anyone" - I agree 100%; I even pointed this out (perhaps not clearly enough however) in a previous post on this thread and would be sorry if anyone thought I was suggesting otherwise. In the example I gave of Jim Elliot - he laid down his life in service not as a sacrifice (big difference). However, I don't want to miss the fullness of what this chapter involves and as you have done well to point out - love does lay down it's life for others by means of serving (and that not necessarily in blood shed).

Thank you LL - once again you have helped me to look at a passage in Scripture in it's more fuller context. [:)]



Walker311 -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 7:23:38 PM)

I can halfway love someone. I can halfway do my job. I can have part of many things in this life but I cannot have only a part of Christ. I either have the whole package or nothing at all and the whole package consists of the faith that God has given me to accept Jesus as His son and my savior. There is nothing else that I must do or another piece that I must obtain.

The rest of this is speculating deeds... whether or not we can do this or that like Jesus. We are to pattern ourselves after Christ but time and time again we may fail due to our flesh but He has made provision for when we are weak, He will make us strong.



Dancre -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 7:34:19 PM)

I've never given nor will I give it much thought. I love Jesus, He loves me, I am complete in Him and that's all that matters.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

The Jesus you cannot have is a question/thought that is borne out of many different threads and comments that have been expressed here. These comments basically revolve around the life of Jesus that is not a part of our life. In other words, He did that or lived that way but we cannot, do not or should not.

I guess I am shocked out of my socks to think that there is a Jesus I cannot have, should not have or do not have according to others. . . yet I have Him, all the fulness of Deity dwelling in me and may be filled up to all the fulness of God. So something's wrong here.

I will share two examples that have come up recently and then I want to hear what you have to say. How much of the Godhead do you think we can have? is available to us? Are there parts of Jesus we cannot have?

One example involves knowing others as Jesus knows others, knowing the true needs of their hearts. Is this part of the Godhead denied to us? Is the Spirit unable/unwilling to impart this kind of knowing to us?

Another example involves love. We are commanded to love one another, just as He has loved us. He laid down His life for us and we are told "you are My friends, if you do what I command you." Yet it has been stated in numerous ways/threads that that is what Jesus did and not what we are to do. So I ask, is this another part of the Godhead denied to us? are we unable/denied the opportunity to love as Jesus loved and commanded us to love? Is the Spirit unable to impart this to us as well?

So I'm asking. Who is the Jesus you cannot have? Your thoughts. . .



URForgiven -> RE: The Jesus you cannot have (10/7/2008 8:17:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

The Jesus you cannot have is a question/thought that is borne out of many different threads and comments that have been expressed here. These comments basically revolve around the life of Jesus that is not a part of our life. In other words, He did that or lived that way but we cannot, do not or should not.

I guess I am shocked out of my socks to think that there is a Jesus I cannot have, should not have or do not have according to others. . . yet I have Him, all the fulness of Deity dwelling in me and may be filled up to all the fulness of God. So something's wrong here.

I will share two examples that have come up recently and then I want to hear what you have to say. How much of the Godhead do you think we can have? is available to us? Are there parts of Jesus we cannot have?


The degree to which we allow ourselves to be available to the living Christ within us, is the degree to which we will be what He was and is...perfect. God is more than willing and able to be responsible for the life that is completely yielded to Him.

"He gives the Spirit without measure" (John 3:34)

This is not our receiving more of the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit being allowed to have more access and control in our lives.

quote:

One example involves knowing others as Jesus knows others, knowing the true needs of their hearts. Is this part of the Godhead denied to us? Is the Spirit unable/unwilling to impart this kind of knowing to us?


We already know the need of others...their need is Jesus Christ.

No part of the Godhead is denied to us. It is us who deny parts of ourselves to the Godhead. Had we perfect faith and perfect love we could enjoy His perfect life...but we do not.

quote:

Another example involves love. We are commanded to love one another, just as He has loved us. He laid down His life for us and we are told "you are My friends, if you do what I command you." Yet it has been stated in numerous ways/threads that that is what Jesus did and not what we are to do. So I ask, is this another part of the Godhead denied to us? are we unable/denied the opportunity to love as Jesus loved and commanded us to love? Is the Spirit unable to impart this to us as well?


Agape love always seeks the highest good of the other. Agape love is always other-oriented. But "I" am not other-oriented, "I" am self-oriented. Agape love is God's love, and only God can Agape another. It is Christ loving others through us, as we abide in Him.

quote:

So I'm asking. Who is the Jesus you cannot have? Your thoughts. . .


We cannot have a Jesus who is of our own making. What God is, we are not. God alone is good, God alone is Holy, God alone is perfect, God alone is righteous, God alone is independent, God alone is Love...God alone is God.

Peace



Page: [1] 2   next >   >>



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI