Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (Full Version)

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diz71266 -> Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/6/2008 11:26:14 PM)

In Luke chapter 4 Satan claims this authority,but in Romans 13 Paul says its God
Im pretty sure about the answer but Id love to hear your thoughts..



LCannon -> RE: Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/6/2008 11:58:21 PM)

Satan can claim anything but the Eternal Jehovah has the reins. Read the Job 2:3-"The LORD said to Satan, 'Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man who fears God and turns away from evil. He still persists in his integrity, although you incited me against him, to destroy him for no reason.'"



rcjames -> RE: Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/7/2008 7:52:09 AM)

God is the ruler of all thengs.

Now if you are asking who "Controls" the rulers of this world; Scripture teaches that if they are not Christians (indwelt by the Holy Spirit) then ther are slaves to sin (satan in control). If they are Believers then they operate with free will to obey God or their flesh.

Thanks
RC



timf -> RE: Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/7/2008 8:00:23 AM)

Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan?

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: - Eph 2:2

Satan rules this present world insofar as he is allowed by God. He is also "restrained" for now in some of what he wishes.

2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of lawlessness (that hidden principle of rebellion against constituted authority) is already at work in the world, [but it is] restrained only until he who restrains is taken out of the way.



earthless -> RE: Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/7/2008 8:08:47 AM)

Let's not forget we do have free-will.

Not everything is "the devil made me do it!!!!"



galadriel2 -> RE: Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/7/2008 11:51:24 AM)

Here's a few verses: 'And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.' (Eph. 2:1,2)

I think whether a government leader is controlled by the devil - 'the prince of the power of the air' or is controlled by God is determined by whether that person is in Christ or no. If a person isn't being led by the Spirit of God (Rom. 8:14), then 'the prince of the power of the air...the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience' - then this spirit is working in them.

As someone brought up from the Romans 13 passage - this passage teaches us that the structure and concept of government comes from God. This doesn't mean that everyone in government is obeying God though. Only people 'in Christ' and with Christ in them (both these happen to a person at the same time) obey God - Romans 8:5-9.

God bless,
Galadriel2



raivyne -> RE: Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/7/2008 1:00:23 PM)

If a politician says he or she is a Christian, I'll take them at face value. When they do or say something (as they almost all do) that I feel is un-Christian I will do my best to remember that they are human (doesn't mean they get my vote!) and pray for them.

I may at times have doubts about whom a particular leader or politician's master really is, but what I do know is Whom is in control.



19ramman85 -> RE: Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/7/2008 1:21:58 PM)

God ..........

Everyone else (Satan, Man) just hangs themselves, if the need be!


-charles



bob97 -> RE: Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/7/2008 1:48:40 PM)

raivyne...can a Christian continue to lie in excess?

Bob



1love1God1way -> RE: Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/7/2008 2:23:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: raivyne

If a politician says he or she is a Christian, I'll take them at face value. When they do or say something (as they almost all do) that I feel is un-Christian I will do my best to remember that they are human (doesn't mean they get my vote!) and pray for them.



A good tree cannot bear bad fruit.



DuckTalk -> RE: Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/7/2008 2:58:57 PM)

God rules.
Man tends.
Unfortunately, man often tends to himself more than he does God.



frankman -> RE: Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/7/2008 4:14:53 PM)

Daniel 4:26 gives us the answer. "Heaven rules." Nothing good or bad will happen to us unless God allows it to happen and it is part of God`s greater plan for us. So if the markets go bad, remember, God is also in control of our $$$$. So if things are going in reverse, remember, we who believe in Him still can always hang on to His valid promises to us. God will take care of us.

[sm=flagcanadian.jpg] on Oct.14 and [sm=flagamerican.jpg] on Nov.4 will be choosing new governments. Our leaders, be they our favourites, be they good or bad, God will ultimately choose them through the peoples votes and then control them as servants of God when they rule over us. That is why Rom.13:1 begins by telling us to submit to our governments because "the authorities that exist have been established by God". [sm=widecry.gif] Just imagine, when Paul wrote this, the wicked Nero was in power.



DuckTalk -> RE: Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/7/2008 5:32:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: frankman
.................................... Our leaders........................ God will ultimately choose them through the peoples votes and then control them as servants of God when they rule over us.
If we are to believe this, then by the same point you make, we would also have to believe that God chose Hitler and controlled him as His servant to gas all those precious people. [sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif]

quote:

ORIGINAL: frankman

..................That is why Rom.13:1 begins by telling us to submit to our governments because "the authorities that exist have been established by God". ................................

If we are to believe this, then by the same point you make, we should have submitted to Adolf Hitler as one of God's chosen servants instead of trying to stop his henious atrocoties[sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif]

What you are saying validates [sm=icon_smile_evil.gif] evil as being of God's choosing.



1love1God1way -> RE: Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/7/2008 5:52:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: norak


..................That is why Rom.13:1 begins by telling us to submit to our governments because "the authorities that exist have been established by God". ................................

If we are to believe this, then by the same point you make, we should have submitted to Adolf Hitler as one of God's chosen servants instead of trying to stop his henious atrocoties[sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif]

What you are saying validates [sm=icon_smile_evil.gif] evil as being of God's choosing.


cf. Babylon.

God used an evil empire to come against His own people.

ALL authority comes from the Father.
It doesn't always mean the authority is used wisely.



DuckTalk -> RE: Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/7/2008 6:25:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

cf. Babylon.

God used an evil empire to come against His own people.

ALL authority comes from the Father.
It doesn't always mean the authority is used wisely.

I think I understand what you are saying. Basically the same as what rcjames said:

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames
God is the ruler of all thengs.


Now if you are asking who "Controls" the rulers of this world; Scripture teaches that if they are not Christians (indwelt by the Holy Spirit) then ther are slaves to sin (satan in control). If they are Believers then they operate with free will to obey God or their flesh.

Thanks
RC

_____________________________

Just a country Preacher's humble opinion



galadriel2 -> RE: Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/7/2008 6:34:47 PM)

I posted this earlier but maybe to reword it would be good. When it says in Romans 13 as quoted that 'the authorities that exist have been established by God' the passage isn't teaching that individual people have been established by God (though that is true too) - but THIS passage isn't teaching THAT principle. This is saying that the institution of government was established by God and that the purpose of that institution is to promote a society where people can live peacefully, godly, and with dignity. 'First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.' (1 Tim. 2:1,2) When a government doesn't fulfill this function then you don't have to go along with it.

God bless,
Galadriel



frankman -> RE: Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/9/2008 4:12:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: norak

quote:

ORIGINAL: frankman
.................................... Our leaders........................ God will ultimately choose them through the peoples votes and then control them as servants of God when they rule over us.
If we are to believe this, then by the same point you make, we would also have to believe that God chose Hitler and controlled him as His servant to gas all those precious people. [sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif]

quote:

ORIGINAL: frankman

..................That is why Rom.13:1 begins by telling us to submit to our governments because "the authorities that exist have been established by God". ................................

If we are to believe this, then by the same point you make, we should have submitted to Adolf Hitler as one of God's chosen servants instead of trying to stop his henious atrocoties[sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif]

What you are saying validates [sm=icon_smile_evil.gif] evil as being of God's choosing.


First of all in Acts 17:26 we read "From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live." Job 12:23 states "He makes nations great, and destroys them; He enlarges nations, and disperses them." Why did God allow Adolf Hitler to reign? I may be wrong in the way I answer this, so take it for what it`s worth, but could it be that this was God`s way of waking up the Jewish people in order to get them to move back to Palestine? God is not the creator of evil, however He will allow evil to take it`s course in order to fulfill His divine purpose through it. Now what that divine purpose may be, we may have to wait until eternity to get an answer.

"Galadriel2" stated "When a government doesn`t fulfill this function you don`t have to go along with it." The Bible says in Acts 5:29 "We must obey God rather than men!" If your rulers are forcing you into doing something that is contrary to God`s Word, we then have an obligation to disobey our rulers.



DuckTalk -> RE: Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/9/2008 5:01:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: frankman
First of all in Acts 17:26 we read "From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live." Job 12:23 states "He makes nations great, and destroys them; He enlarges nations, and disperses them." Why did God allow Adolf Hitler to reign? I may be wrong in the way I answer this, so take it for what it`s worth, but could it be that this was God`s way of waking up the Jewish people in order to get them to move back to Palestine? God is not the creator of evil, however He will allow evil to take it`s course in order to fulfill His divine purpose through it. Now what that divine purpose may be, we may have to wait until eternity to get an answer.


quote:

ORIGINAL: frankman
"Galadriel2" stated "When a government doesn`t fulfill this function you don`t have to go along with it." The Bible says in Acts 5:29 "We must obey God rather than men!" If your rulers are forcing you into doing something that is contrary to God`s Word, we then have an obligation to disobey our rulers.


Am I reading this wrong? I am not understanding because it appears to be contradictory with the first saying it is possible that God chose Hitler to get a message to the Jews and the latter paragraph says that we are to go against rulers only when they use their leadership against God's word.

I see this circling back to my original response.... http://forums.crosswalk.com/fb.aspx?m=3875545

[sm=sadquestion.gif][sm=sadquestion.gif]



raivyne -> RE: Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/9/2008 5:04:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

raivyne...can a Christian continue to lie in excess?

Bob


No. However, I don't know what they are actively seeking counsel from God on... if anything at all. An unrepentant liar is still a liar even if they claim to be a Christian. I'm simply leaving the option over for them to see the error in their ways.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit.


There is sometimes an occasional rotten apple on a good tree, but that's the exception not the rule (give the rotten apple to God and let him make it fresh); but I agree with the general statement you are making.



1love1God1way -> RE: Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/9/2008 6:46:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: raivyne

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit.


There is sometimes an occasional rotten apple on a good tree, but that's the exception not the rule (give the rotten apple to God and let him make it fresh); but I agree with the general statement you are making.


I'm thinking more along the lines that an apple tree won't bear thorns, and a thorn bush won't bear apples.



raivyne -> RE: Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/10/2008 10:17:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

quote:

ORIGINAL: raivyne

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit.


There is sometimes an occasional rotten apple on a good tree, but that's the exception not the rule (give the rotten apple to God and let him make it fresh); but I agree with the general statement you are making.


I'm thinking more along the lines that an apple tree won't bear thorns, and a thorn bush won't bear apples.


True enough, which is why I generally agree with your statement.

I was basically just trying to leave open the option for God to change their hearts as he perfects His love within them (assuming they know Him in the first place of course).



frankman -> RE: Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/11/2008 11:03:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: norak

Am I reading this wrong? I am not understanding because it appears to be contradictory with the first saying it is possible that God chose Hitler to get a message to the Jews and the latter paragraph says that we are to go against rulers only when they use their leadership against God's word.


[sm=sadquestion.gif][sm=sadquestion.gif]


This is somewhat confusing because we don`t always understand why God allows bad things to happen to us. Your statement should read "that God allowed (not chose) Hitler". Then the why??? question we just can`t answer.

The later paragraph states that the Bible teaches we are to respect our leaders (not agree with them always or like them) and we are to obey them, unless they compel you to do things contrary to God`s Word. It`s always God`s Word first and men`s word second. The government of Myanmar may be a good example of this today because your not allowed to share the Gospel with anybody. In a case like this we most disobey our leaders. [8D] When it comes to paying our taxes, I`m afraid we`re compelled to obey.



DuckTalk -> RE: Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/13/2008 3:30:30 PM)

No, it's not at all confusing. I did not say that God chose. You did in your original statement
quote:

ORIGINAL: frankman
God will ultimately choose them through the peoples votes and then control them as servants of God when they rule over us.
I only reiterated & questioned this when you spoke of the upcoming election on Nov. 4th because yes, it is that God only "allows" things to happen through the freedom of our choices & repercussions of our actions. Unfortunately, one of them being to set ourselves up for our failures by voting the unrighteous in to be our leaders OR to corporately let ourselves be overrun by evil without fighting back. That is exactly why American soldiers are in Iraq & Afghanistan fighting for their rights. WE believe in a loving God who allows freedom. If we did not do this, we would have far more Hitlers in this world.

It is not even confusing to understand being obedient to authority, but authority has more than a dictator or self to answer to. Authority is subject to corporately mandated laws. Laws that we, the citizens are responsible for implementing & abiding by & as citizens, we are to hold our leaders equally accountable.
quote:

ORIGINAL: frankman
The later paragraph states that the Bible teaches we are to respect our leaders (not agree with them always or like them) and we are to obey them, unless they compel you to do things contrary to God`s Word. ..........

And this is what I am talking about! We are to closely guard righteousness. Ephesians 6 tells us to put on the full armor of God so that we can take our stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Unfortunately, the power is generally well-funded & well-disguised & quite often, in our leadership & authority. It often speaks so smoothly that we are charmed by it's eloquence.

No, I really don't think it is complicated at all.



OneJohn410 -> RE: Who rules the rulers of this world God or Satan? (10/13/2008 3:48:27 PM)

Orange trees can produce thorns. Sharp, spiny thorns like porcupine quills. I was amazed to see it. Yeah, I thought all fruit trees were supposed to be really lush and nice and all. Imagine getting bonked by an orange, then poked really good by a falling orange branch with thorns on it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

quote:

ORIGINAL: raivyne

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit.


There is sometimes an occasional rotten apple on a good tree, but that's the exception not the rule (give the rotten apple to God and let him make it fresh); but I agree with the general statement you are making.


I'm thinking more along the lines that an apple tree won't bear thorns, and a thorn bush won't bear apples.



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