And that no man might buy or sell...

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Godhead -> And that no man might buy or sell... (10/3/2008 2:32:07 AM)
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. (Rev 13:16-18) I am just wondering if this has got anything to do with capitalism. It seems to me that it has taken over the world now and has all the real power. It could be one of the things that allows this man to get into power. who knows but its just a thought. Is capitalism a good thing. Certainly money has its power.

FurGodWurLivin -> RE: And that no man might buy or sell... (10/3/2008 4:18:08 AM)
I don't think so. Strict economic controls are actually a product of Communism and not Capitalism. In capitalism, if you have an idea that you can sell, do so and provide for thyself. Money does have power, so I would be looking for an economic turmoil such as we are currently have to bring the Antichrist to prominence as he solves it. However, the passage you are referencing above is actually talking about the false prophet causing people to take the mark of the beast, and the stipulation that you have to have the mark if you want to engage in any kind of commerce. So no, this is not talking about Capitalism, but the false prophet taking control of all the global commerce structures and putting it under the authority of antichrist. Hope that helps a little bit. Adam

bob97 -> RE: And that no man might buy or sell... (10/3/2008 11:08:02 AM)
Wealth (energy credits) is simply a by product of energy. In today’s world energy is a product of crude oil. If you want to understand who will control the world leadership understand who will control the world’s energy sources. Bob

Sinner-Saint -> RE: And that no man might buy or sell... (10/4/2008 10:21:50 AM)
No, I think this describes how God will judge Capitalism, which has conquered the whole world without firing a shot, AND makes war possible on a scale which has never been seen since before the Industrial Revolution. REV 18:11 "The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes any more-- 12 cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13 cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and bodies and souls of men. In Communist China, Capitalism literally kills people. If this wasn't for verses 22 & 23 in that chapter, which gives us some specific detail about the Woes to come after we're gone, it would describe the World Trade Center of 9-11. So what will come will make 9-11 look like a cakewalk.

Retrobyter -> RE: And that no man might buy or sell... (10/4/2008 4:17:49 PM)
Shabbat shalom, Sinner-Saint. quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint No, I think this describes how God will judge Capitalism, which has conquered the whole world without firing a shot, AND makes war possible on a scale which has never been seen since before the Industrial Revolution. REV 18:11 "The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes any more-- 12 cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13 cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and bodies and souls of men. In Communist China, Capitalism literally kills people. If this wasn't for verses 22 & 23 in that chapter, which gives us some specific detail about the Woes to come after we're gone, it would describe the World Trade Center of 9-11. So what will come will make 9-11 look like a cakewalk. I believe Bob was right. God does not judge capitalism! True capitalism is just being a good Jew! It's watching where your pennies go and living carefully within your means, creating wealth with the sweat of your brow and good, honest work. If you want to blame what's going on around us, don't look to capitalism; look rather at the SOCIALISM that has made in-roads into our country at the national levels and has been put in practice in the U.S.! Look at the credit mentality we as a nation have bought into! Rather than living within our means, we have grossly borrowed from the future to pay for today's luxuries! Well, we've "hit the wall" and now it's time to "pay the piper!" Retrobyter

Sinner-Saint -> RE: And that no man might buy or sell... (10/4/2008 6:24:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Retrobyter God does not judge capitalism! True capitalism is just being a good Jew! True Capitalism is more than being just a good Jew! True Capitalism feeds excess. True Capitalism erects the banking industry which lends money to keep people in debt by incessantly wanting all the luxuries Capitalism can provide. I need a new Porsche Cayman S. Dressed up nicely, it's only $83,000. God doesn't judge Capitalism? That is the whole point of Revelation 18! God does judge them and He will judge them harshly so much so that they can't act like "good" Jews! (There is none good but God.)

.ABBA. -> RE: And that no man might buy or sell... (10/4/2008 9:06:51 PM)
G'Day,, I saw an interview with a lady in America during the week and she was homeless due to the current economic crisis. She has two cats and two large dogs which slept with her in the car, as this was now their home. She was one of many who are now homeless & living in their cars or other such distressing locations. Being born in the 70’s it seemed every family at the time had the basic. Car, TV, Record/Stereo Player & a pool. Most of it was bought with cash, a little put aside each week until you could afford to buy it. People lived within there weekly p ay, and if they wanted something they would have to save up and then purchase the item. How times have changed for the family,, Jones. In 1888 Edward Bellamy wrote a book: Looking Back. And in the pages was a term that would become a modern day ball and chain for the average person,, the Credit Card. BY the 80’s the average family had at least one, by the 90’s the average person had at least one. Now it seems from what I have seen the average person has at least two credit cards, making the average couple/family unit having roughly 3-4 credit cards. Now having credit isn’t bad if you know how to use it and are responsible with the payments. I think what the issue here is the mentality that our society now has, partly due to the fact the average person can call on a dollar amount of $2000 or more with a simple signature. In the 80’s on Wall St it was about the Greed, well it seems after twenty years that greed has filtered down through to us the average Joe. Many have had all their possessions taken away and the house over their heads. Others are so much in debt they have in turn made for themselves a prison with countless repayments outside of the weekly wage. We have had 25 banks collapse around the world due to this crisis, with many more on the edge. The nations over the last week have been pushing for the Bill to go through, and on the second attempt with some sweeteners it passed. $700 billion dollars pulled out of the air in a week or so to save the banks and the large debt that threatens to devour yet another bank. It’s a sad day when we can do that for the greedy and rich,, yet the poor and hungry the lame & sick around the world get looked over. Luke 3 10 And the crowds were questioning him, saying, "Then what shall we do?" 11 And he would answer and say to them, "The man who has two tunics is to share with him who has none; and he who has food is to do likewise." 12 And some tax collectors also came to be baptized, and they said to him, "Teacher, what shall we do?" 13 And he said to them, "Collect no more than what you have been ordered to." 14 Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, "And what about us, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages." yours In Christ,, God Bless

Godhead -> RE: And that no man might buy or sell... (10/4/2008 9:36:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin I don't think so. Strict economic controls are actually a product of Communism and not Capitalism. In capitalism, if you have an idea that you can sell, do so and provide for thyself. We are actually herded like cattle, into what we should buy and what we need. Microsoft, forces us to buy its new and pointless operating systems and software buy making it unusable by older Operating Systems. I still use Windows 2000. And it was suppose to last thorough the Millennium. That's what the users guide says. Yet it lasted only six years. There is no real need for much of the stuff they put out. We are being forced to buy all the latest stuff. Isn't that capitalism in a way. Obviously, the economy is the most powerfully force at work in today's society. well without it we cannot even survive now as a species. quote: ORIGINAL: bob97 Wealth (energy credits) is simply a by product of energy. In today’s world energy is a product of crude oil. If you want to understand who will control the world leadership understand who will control the world’s energy sources. Bob We have become totally dependant on fossil fuels. That would make anyone in control of it a very powerful person. People would do anything to keep the fridge or TV going. quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint No, I think this describes how God will judge Capitalism, which has conquered the whole world without firing a shot, AND makes war possible on a scale which has never been seen since before the Industrial Revolution. REV 18:11 "The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes any more-- 12 cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13 cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and bodies and souls of men. In Communist China, Capitalism literally kills people. If this wasn't for verses 22 & 23 in that chapter, which gives us some specific detail about the Woes to come after we're gone, it would describe the World Trade Center of 9-11. So what will come will make 9-11 look like a cakewalk. Yes that is a theme throughout Revelation, and in light of what is happening today, not something that can be easily ignored. Capitalism and the mighty dollar has corrupted many nations and America is in the forefront I would say. Money is the power behind an election.

Retrobyter -> RE: And that no man might buy or sell... (10/4/2008 11:54:21 PM)
Shalom, Sinner-Saint. quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint quote: ORIGINAL: Retrobyter God does not judge capitalism! True capitalism is just being a good Jew! True Capitalism is more than being just a good Jew! True Capitalism feeds excess. True Capitalism erects the banking industry which lends money to keep people in debt by incessantly wanting all the luxuries Capitalism can provide. I need a new Porsche Cayman S. Dressed up nicely, it's only $83,000. God doesn't judge Capitalism? That is the whole point of Revelation 18! God does judge them and He will judge them harshly so much so that they can't act like "good" Jews! (There is none good but God.) I think it just might be time to re-visit the definition of capitalism. According to Wikipedia,... Capitalism is the economic system in which the means of production are owned by private persons, and operated for profit[1] and where investments, distribution, income, production and pricing of goods and services are predominantly determined through the operation of a free market[2], rather than by central economic planning. Capitalism is usually considered to involve the right of individuals and corporations to trade, incorporate, employ workers, and use money provided by central banks, in goods, services (including finance), labor and land.[2] In theory, production and distribution in a capitalist system are governed by the free market rather than state regulation,[3] with state action confined to defining and enforcing the basic rules of the market[4] though the state may provide a few basic public goods and infrastructure.[5] Unrestrained capitalism is confined to theory, as "all of the capitalistic societies of the West have mixed economies" with interventionist state regulation, social programs[6] and state ownership of some sectors. Capitalist economic practices became institutionalized in England between the 16th and 19th centuries, although some features of capitalist organization existed in the ancient world, and early forms of merchant capitalism flourished during the Middle Ages.[7][8] Capitalism has been dominant in the Western world since the end of feudalism.[7] From Britain it gradually spread throughout Europe, across political and cultural frontiers. In the 19th and 20th centuries, capitalism provided the main, but not exclusive, means of industrialization throughout much of the world.[9] The concept of capitalism has limited analytic value, given the great variety of historical cases over which it is applied, varying in time, geography, politics and culture, and some feel that the term "mixed economies" more precisely describes most contemporary economies.[10][11] Some economists have specified a variety of different types of capitalism, depending on specifics of concentration of economic power and wealth, and methods of capital accumulation.[9] The capitalist mixed economy is the main capitalist system, where the state intervenes in market activity and provides some services. Other systems include laissez-faire, where the state plays a minimal role and anarcho-capitalism where the market and private enterprise are completely free from the state which is nonexistent. During the last century capitalism has been contrasted with centrally planned economies, such as Marxian economies. What YOU'RE talking about is greed, lust, and foolish spending, all of which are well addressed in Scripture! It's like guns: Ever hear "Guns don't kill people; PEOPLE kill people!"? Well, it's true. A gun is simply a way of propelling a projectile at high velocities to transfer energy at a distance very quickly. WHAT the gun is used for makes the difference in how that machine is utilized. A person can use a hammer to drive a nail, or they could use the hammer to bash someone's skull! There are branches of the armed forces that are so well trained that they could use almost ANYTHING as a weapon in an emergency, like for instance, a pencil! If a person has murder in his or her heart, they will kill another person with whatever weapon they can find at hand, and whatever they choose to be the murder weapon is not to blame. The person's desire to murder is to blame! HIS OR HER SIN is to blame! The same is true for the free market enterprise and trade system! It's NOT capitalism that's to blame. For the first 200 years our country's been in existence, we've done pretty well with it! People have the right to go out and start whatever business in which they feel they can make some money. That's free enterprise! They can buy whatever they feel they need to buy for their business or home. That's free trade! The free market is the trading of goods and services that provide a win/win scenario for both the purchaser and the seller! These are all very positive things! Furthermore, economics has taught for a long time in the "invisible hand" concept of keeping the prices and costs balanced. Wikipedia again... The invisible hand is a metaphor coined by the economist Adam Smith. Once in The Wealth of Nations and other writings, Smith demonstrated that, in a free market, an individual pursuing his own self-interest tends to also promote the good of his community as a whole through a principle that he called “the invisible hand”. He argued that each individual maximizing revenue for himself maximizes the total revenue of society as a whole, as this is identical with the sum total of individual revenues. What's been happening over the last few months is that our love affair with purchasing on credit is catching up with us! As I heard one wise reporter say, this has been developing since the Clinton administration. Well, the truth is that it's been much longer than that! Because of the mentality of purchasing homes on credit, purchasing cars on credit, and other large purchases, we have put ourselves in bondage! "The borrower is servant to the lender!" Rather than deferring our purchases until we've saved up enough to go out and buy what we desire with cash, we have bought with money expected in our future, including that money's expected return (interest), the things we feel we can't live without right now. We do it on an individual family basis, but companies also do this same type of borrowing! Our country does this sort of borrowing! But, we have to admit that this kind of borrowing and purchasing can't go on indefinitely! Our country's banks and other businesses have maxed out their limits! That's all. Alaska used to have this solved. They never spent more than they took in and for years they have had SURPLUSES to give back to their taxpayers! Our nation also needs to operate this way and quit borrowing ourselves into more and more national debt! What we truly need is someone in office who is willing to make the tough decisions to get our country back on its financial feet again! Retrobyter

bob97 -> RE: And that no man might buy or sell... (10/5/2008 12:59:21 AM)
quote: We have become totally dependant on fossil fuels. That would make anyone in control of it a very powerful person. People would do anything to keep the fridge or TV going. Godhead...we have always been dependent upon energy...without a source of energy we would still be living in caves. In fact with out energy we wouldn't be living at all. First it was wood, then coal and today crude oil. We think in terms of gold being the standard but energy credits are really the backbone of wealth. He who owns all the energy will at some point own all the gold. _____________________________________________________________________________________ Retrobyter...you are right on target. Capitalism is not the problem, it is the sinful greed of man. Greed will destroy any monetary system ever developed. Bob

Sinner-Saint -> RE: And that no man might buy or sell... (10/5/2008 1:40:21 AM)
Wikipedia is a liberal dictionary which isn't worth any more than someone's opinion. My opinion is that I should try to look at Capitalism, not as the system which allows me to be wealthy beyond any normal person's (using world standards for the other 6 billion people) measure - but as God would see Capitalism. For that matter, comparing my lifestyle to the average world person today (and half live in poverty), the ancients would be amazed at what I have and the comfort I enjoy... What began in Italy with the Rennaissance and spread westward to England and westward still to America and today has conquered Communist China without a shot being fired (so that they're a lot more like us!) is just like the White Chariots Zechariah and the white Horseman that John saw. So just because we are comfortable with our red-white-and-blue economic system, doesn't mean it's all its cracked up to be. There is a lot of things going on past personal property rights when you get into really BIG money. That is Capitalism too, and I think we ought to include all its excesses as sins and one sin is enough to make it bad in God's eyes. I still say Revelation 18 is against Capitalism.

Retrobyter -> RE: And that no man might buy or sell... (10/5/2008 4:31:34 PM)
Shalom, Sinner-Saint. quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint Wikipedia is a liberal dictionary which isn't worth any more than someone's opinion. My opinion is that I should try to look at Capitalism, not as the system which allows me to be wealthy beyond any normal person's (using world standards for the other 6 billion people) measure - but as God would see Capitalism. For that matter, comparing my lifestyle to the average world person today (and half live in poverty), the ancients would be amazed at what I have and the comfort I enjoy... What began in Italy with the Rennaissance and spread westward to England and westward still to America and today has conquered Communist China without a shot being fired (so that they're a lot more like us!) is just like the White Chariots Zechariah and the white Horseman that John saw. So just because we are comfortable with our red-white-and-blue economic system, doesn't mean it's all its cracked up to be. There is a lot of things going on past personal property rights when you get into really BIG money. That is Capitalism too, and I think we ought to include all its excesses as sins and one sin is enough to make it bad in God's eyes. I still say Revelation 18 is against Capitalism. I don't care which dictionary you want to use; all I was trying to do was come back to a simple definition for the word capitalism, and Wikipedia was one of the quickest sources. See, you've been blowing the definition for this word way out of proportion, giving it unwarranted connotations. That's why I felt it was imperative to get back to a common definition. Please, stop harping on capitalism; it's SIN--GREED, LUST FOR MONEY, and POOR SPENDING CHOICES--that's caused our current financial meltdown. Now, on the real issue for this topic: This financial situation is NOT, ABSOLUTELY NOT, the Secret Bavel (Mystery Babylon) of Rev. 18! First of all, this chapter follows the seven seals, the seven trumpets, and the seven plagues. It follows the battle at Har-Megiddown! You're WAY out of sequence if you think that our country, an unknown in Yochanan's day, six timezones away, could be this "secret Bavel!" Did you ever think that Iraq, the original location of Bavel, with its surplus from all the money we've sent over there, and after the country has been rebuilt, could indeed be the location of the Secret Bavel of the future? I mean, who's got the money now?! What do we have? Trillions of dollars of debt?! Retrobyter

Sinner-Saint -> RE: And that no man might buy or sell... (10/5/2008 11:40:17 PM)
I'm way out of sequence? Sorry Retro, the book of Revelation is not a novel. It is written as a series of parallel accounts. While Chapter 18 gives us specific information about the end of the wicked world, it also describes a system of man which is and has been ongoing. Of a truth, Capitalism thrives on greed and love of money. It is the profit motive which propels it. Given no constraints, Capitalism naturally assumes a monopoly status where it can charge confiscatory rates. Without any check and balance, there would be no labor unions, no safety standards (which a lot of companies pay lip-service to only...) and no work laws which prevent exploitation. I work for a multi-billion dollar company. I can tell you from watching management that they have no scruples. They trade in the lives of men and women. People are expendable; they have a cost figure that goes into the cost/benefit analysis. The last group of people I know who died as a result of mismanagement was almost seven years ago. There may have been more since that I don't know about. In the last accident I know of, the company worked hand in hand with another multi-billion dollar multi-national company to blame their employees who died in the mishap. Isn't that convenient; they're not around to defend themselves... To say that John never heard of America belies the fact that God knows exactly who we are and He through Jesus informs John as to what will be. I think New York City is the New Babylon. Capitalism also is revered and worshipped by some. Rush Limbaugh constantly extols its virtues to "save" people from economic misery... Money, which is the root of Capitalism, is even a named god by God: Mammon. Without Capitalism, you do not have the economic, military-industrial juggernaut that makes war possible on a scale which tries to rival God's ability to wage war. I think we have to look outside the box of our comfortable, American way of life to see Capitalism for what it really is in God's eyes.

bob97 -> RE: And that no man might buy or sell... (10/6/2008 10:50:54 AM)
Saint… What monetary system of social system of government do you propose that we adapt? Bob

JimboFletch -> RE: And that no man might buy or sell... (10/6/2008 10:54:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint True Capitalism is more than being just a good Jew! True Capitalism feeds excess..... That's as honest as stating that all conservatives are facists and haters of non-whites and non-Protestants.

Deleted User -> [Deleted] (10/6/2008 11:42:11 AM)
[Deleted by Admins]

Lapidoth -> RE: And that no man might buy or sell... (10/6/2008 1:18:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint True Capitalism is more than being just a good Jew! True Capitalism feeds excess..... That's as honest as stating that all conservatives are facists and haters of non-whites and non-Protestants. ROFL............that is the definition in the "Liberals Dictionary."

Sinner-Saint -> RE: And that no man might buy or sell... (10/6/2008 3:56:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bob97 What monetary system of social system of government do you propose that we adapt? Why do I have to fix the world's problems? I just have to pay the mortgage on the mansion (by world standards) that I live in each month.

Sinner-Saint -> RE: And that no man might buy or sell... (10/6/2008 3:59:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint True Capitalism is more than being just a good Jew! True Capitalism feeds excess..... quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch That's as honest as stating that all conservatives are facists and haters of non-whites and non-Protestants. I take you don't like it when your hog is being gored... Americans think we're somehow superior or righteous compared to the world. I don't think we are in God's eyes. I get this from reading what God does with our world trade in Revelation 18 - He judges it. For you to equate what I state as my opinion as not being honest, or worse, as being prejudicial in any manner is not true; it's just your reaction to what I said, and I still stand by my opinion regardless of what you think about it.

Lapidoth -> RE: And that no man might buy or sell... (10/6/2008 4:23:58 PM)
quote: I just have to pay the mortgage on the mansion (by world standards) that I live in each month. I have lived "below" the poverty level deemed by congress my entire life. I've been to the third world countries. I give thanks to God for my mansion I live in. It's the biggest house I've had to this point. Still a shack to the bureaucrats. Like Paul, I've learned to be content in whatever state I find myself. And I've been in most all of them. lol. We are bleessssss------ed.

JimboFletch -> RE: And that no man might buy or sell... (10/6/2008 4:25:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint I take you don't like it when your hog is being gored... No, my skin crawls around anyone that has a false premise and then works it into even worse eschatology. But I don't expect all that much from adolescents. BTW, did you make up that mixed metaphor, hog...gored? ROTFLOL! [sm=farmersmile.gif]

JimboFletch -> RE: And that no man might buy or sell... (10/6/2008 4:30:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint I just have to pay the mortgage on the mansion (by world standards) that I live in each month. FWIW, I paid off my mortgage in 2006, over 10 years early. My car is paid for. And it wasn't because I made above $50K a year (or even at $50K). One can live below their means, tithe, give to the more needy, be without credit card debt and not be a wealthy American.

Lapidoth -> RE: And that no man might buy or sell... (10/6/2008 4:36:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint I just have to pay the mortgage on the mansion (by world standards) that I live in each month. FWIW, I paid off my mortgage in 2006, over 10 years early. My car is paid for. And it wasn't because I made above $50K a year (or even at $50K). One can live below their means, tithe, give to the more needy, be without credit card debt and not be a wealthy American. That's what actually makes us wealthy. Living within our means and free. Of course, the next election could change all that. lol. The freedom part that is.

JimboFletch -> RE: And that no man might buy or sell... (10/6/2008 4:40:13 PM)
I have studied Revelation 18 and description of the Great Babylon is much closer to a middle Eastern nation, say like Babylon, than a capitalist country. You should spend a bit of time looking at the excess in oil-rich Islamic nations. Nothing that I've seen anywhere in this country comes close to gaudy displays of mammon of just Saddam Hussein. And look at the UAE, making huge man-made islands and other extravagant expenditures. If anyone thinks the USA is the Great Babylon of Revelation 18, then they must be sheltered from other cultures and nations.

Lapidoth -> RE: And that no man might buy or sell... (10/6/2008 4:50:24 PM)
quote: then they must be sheltered from other cultures and nations. This is true in many issues that get debated.

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