How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (Full Version)

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ChelaW -> How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/1/2008 2:53:13 PM)

I've been dating a wonderful Christian man. We go to the same church, and are very equally yoked spiritually.

Lately, we've been half-jokingly talking about marriage. He's playing with the idea of having me sign a pre-nupital agreement if we were to get married (we've only been dating for a couple of months, so this is all very hypothetical). I'm strongly against this!!

First of all, right now I'm 25 & he's 30. We're both educated, ambitious professionals, but neither one of us makes a lot of money. At all. However, with our respective ambitions, it can be assumed very safely that later we will each prosper financially, so he's saying that he will need to "protect himself" just in case our marriage doesn't work out.

I say that first of all, I'm with you very happily BEFORE you have money. Also, we won't get married without knowing that it's God's plan. And if it's God's plan, and we enter into that covenant, then God can help us with our marriage, no matter what. There is no "just in case." I'd go so far as to say that signing a pre-nup when God already TOLD you you're marrying the right person is not acting in faith.

What do you all think about this?



Jenny-Fair -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/1/2008 3:14:08 PM)

If two people get married before they make a fortune, then a pre-nup is useless anyway. A fortune earned while you are married is the property of both spouses.

I would not marry a man who was so concerned with money in the first place, but no, I don't think I would sign a pre-nup in most cases.



DuckTalk -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/1/2008 3:21:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChelaW

I've been dating a wonderful Christian man. .............................Lately, we've been half-jokingly talking about marriage. He's playing with the idea of having me sign a pre-nupital agreement if we were to get married (we've only been dating for a couple of months, so this is all very hypothetical). ................What do you all think about this?


Simply put.....I think that anyone who feels the need for a pre-nup is clearly placing more value on their earnings and possessions than their relationship.



sudden -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/1/2008 4:07:40 PM)

ChelaW:

It seems to me that if neither of you has any significant assets that your boyfriend must be joking. Perhaps though he has a great many assets that you are unaware of. Asking a future spouse to sign such a document is very wise under such circumstances.

I do not believe that any Christians go into marraige expecting it to end however many do. Asking for a prenuptual agreement if you have significant assets prior to marrying is prudent. How would you like to have a fair-weather spouse take half of your money at the end of 6 months of marraige? a year of marraige? when they had brought nothing to it themselves? Just ask Paul McCartney how he feels.

It has been my experience that the only people who have qualms about signing such a document are the ones with no assets to lose and everything to gain. If this is a contenscious issue for you, you have only been dating the man a short time and now may be the time to move on but as I said, it seems to me, it must be a joke.

Yours for walking a mile in his shoes,

Sudden



sudden -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/1/2008 4:14:16 PM)

ChelaW:

Oops! I forgot to answer the question: Yes! It would be acting in faith to sign a pre-nup for your partner. It would show that you love him for himself rather than any material rewards you might reap from him. (From what he had prior to marriage of course)

Sudden



Jenny-Fair -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/1/2008 4:16:00 PM)

quote:

(From what he had prior to marriage of course)

But in this case, they aren't talking about wealth PRIOR to marriage. They are talking about what is earned DURING the marriage.



sudden -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/1/2008 4:19:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair

quote:

(From what he had prior to marriage of course)

But in this case, they aren't talking about wealth PRIOR to marriage. They are talking about what is earned DURING the marriage.



Hi Jenny:

It was always my understanding that a pre-nuptual agreement only pertains to what one possesses prior to marriage. IN this country (Canada) there is no other kind. It's good to hear more about your legislation in these matters.

Sudden



Jenny-Fair -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/1/2008 4:22:01 PM)

I am not talking about the law. I am talking about the OP--it is clear that he means wealth accumulated after their marriage.

I live in a community property state, so it might not be legal, but I don't really know.



hotsaucygma -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/1/2008 4:33:46 PM)

I would not go into a marriage planning for "if it failed". If I would ever marry again, what is mine would become his and I would expect what is his would become mine. That means everything from our kids to our money to our debts. Period. I would want to know what all of the previously mentioned are, I mean how many children "he" has, what assets there are and what debts there are, and what things he would want his children to have if he died before I did. And I'd want to know those things before the marriage, but whatever we have is ours together, or there would be no we.



DuckTalk -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/1/2008 4:33:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sudden

.............Asking for a prenuptual agreement if you have significant assets prior to marrying is prudent. How would you like to have a fair-weather spouse take half of your money at the end of 6 months of marraige? a year of marraige? when they had brought nothing to it themselves? Just ask Paul McCartney how he feels..............Sudden


Just an opinion~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Off the subject, but a subject brought up by you...........Is it better for an old fellow like Paul McCartney to get his money's worth by marrying a young girl or pay for it by the hour with a young prostitute?

Neither.

When these rich old bags of wrinkled flesh tag the fresh young chicks, they pretty much get exactly what they bargained for.



Focusing -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/2/2008 1:25:41 AM)

I believe that a pre-nup is a set-up for failure in a marriage. It would tell me he doesn't trust me, he's more concerned about him and his stuff, and that he's keeping an eye on his best interests for "what's next".

A pre-nup is not making a statement that screams I love you, trust you, and want to spend the rest of my life with you.



DaveW -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/2/2008 8:11:47 AM)

A pre-nup may be required if the future spouse has some family business that the family wants to stay in the family. In that case it usually would have a clause stating the disposition of that business in the event of the death of spouse. This would be to keep the control of said business with the family.

In general I think pre-nups are not a good idea but in that one case, can be legitimate.



Tashilein -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/2/2008 9:01:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focusing

I believe that a pre-nup is a set-up for failure in a marriage. It would tell me he doesn't trust me, he's more concerned about him and his stuff, and that he's keeping an eye on his best interests for "what's next".

A pre-nup is not making a statement that screams I love you, trust you, and want to spend the rest of my life with you.


I feel the same way. Pre-nups aren't for me. It shows a lack of trust, a lack of love. In a way it comes over as he doesn't believe in our relationship, in us.

If he has any assets before our marriage that he didn't tell me about and wants to protect.... What does that mean? What does that show me? What else wasn't he honest about? His feelings towards me? His believe in our relationship? Who am I marrying? It would feel like marrying a stranger cause I'm not marrying the person I thought he is. It feels like he wouldn't believe/feel/trust that I love him for who he is and not what he has.

Any assets that would be gained after our marriage... I would think that it would come from our support for each other, our believe in each other that the other will make that promotion or whatever. I want to support my future husband in his goals and dreams as I hope he would support mine. And if one of us would achieve that goal or that dream would come true, it would be our "teamwork", our success.

Marriage should be about who both of you are, your love, the inside of each one and not about material stuff. And statistics about divorce....It shouldn't scare you. It doesn't mean your marriage will end in a divorce. Every marriage, every relationship has its ups and downs. It's about giving and taking, compromising. Money can buy you a lot, but it can never buy you friendship, trust, love...

But that's just me [:)]



Kellgaste -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/2/2008 9:01:50 AM)

Hypothetical to get the thought juices going.......

A young man who doesn't have much (in the way of assets but has a strong career with lots of promise) marries a lovely young woman and makes an Oath/Covenant/Vow to her for "Until death do us part". Said young women has a young daughter born out of wedlock, not the young mans.

Now several years goes by and young man loves young woman and daughter VERY much and cares for them both and they have a son together. Now, young man is not wealthy but makes a good living and is able to support his family.

After 8 years of marriage young woman decides she wants to be Independent and chooses to commit Adultery with another, then files for a Divorce (Thus breaking her Oath/Covenant/Vow).

Now, after the emotional cataclysm from that event and young man trying to keep his children safe and stable finds another woman or she finds him but he is now viewing women in a not so positive light, would it be a terrible thing to have a pre-nup that lays out that if she ends the Oath/Covenant/Vow for any other reason than Marital Unfaithfulness she gets NOTHING?

Just curious.



WhiteRoseBlessings -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/2/2008 9:50:16 AM)

Kellsgaste, I do not choose to trust or distrust anyone based on demographics (in this case, the demographics being a person's gender). I choose to trust or distrust a person based on that person and that person only.

If someone has been so hurt from a previous relationship, then before even entering another relationship, they should probably tend to their emotional health and heal from such wounds.

Just because someone did a person wrong doesn't mean that when that person and I get together that I should be be held accountable for what someone else did.


~ ~ ~ ~ ~

ChelaW . . .

I absolutely do not believe in pre-nups. If a man wants to marry me, he had better trust me. If he doesn't trust me, then he shouldn't marry me.

I've never publicly written about this; but in fact, those are the very words I told my late husband when he approached me about signing a pre-nup early on in our dating relationship. He did so under incredible pressure from his step-children (who were grown adults); it wasn't even his idea to begin with.

Incidentally, we nearly broke up over the the whole pre-nup thing. Over a period of several months, he approached me twice about - each time at the insistence of his step-children. Each time, I told him that I would not sign a pre-nup. My reason for doing so had nothing to do with "having everything to lose and nothing to gain" as has been suggested in this thread as the reason for refusing to do such a thing. My reason was all about my integrity and his trust in such integrity. If he didn't trust me, he shouldn't marry me.

The third time that he approached me about signing such a document (again at the insistence of his step-children), I told him that perhaps we needed to rethink our relationship - because I certainly wasn't going to be with someone who didn't trust me and he certainly shouldn't be with someone whom he didn't trust.

He told his step-children to mind their own business.
Sadly, when we did actually marry, a couple years later, his step-children literally disowned him - but not before they came to us and demanded that we sign some type of "post-nup" that they had their lawyer draw up. We refused to sign that as well.

Incidentally, to explain a bit . . . because it does seem a bit odd for step-children to be so involved . . . these were grown adults. Their mother and my late husband had been married for 22 years before she died. Their reasons for wanting me to sign a pre-nup revolved around property that they felt they were entitled to.

Incidentally again . . . this property that they were so up in arms about was worth a huge amount of money. It was also in my husband's will that this property be left to them after his death (it was in his will before he met me AND it was in his will that he created after he married me). I was named as the excutrix of his will.

When he died, I had five lawyers tell me that, as his widow, I was entitled to far more than what was actually bequeathed to me . . . such determination was based on percentages; and the value of the property I mentioned above made everything quite lop-sided. All five lawyers advised me to contest the will. All five of them also told me that I would win such action - because the law was on my side. I politely but firmly declined each time a lawyer told me this. I never had the first intention of contesting my husband's will. I knew about the will from a very early period in my relationship with my husband. I also knew other things that weren't listed in any legal document; things spoken in private conversations between the two of us.

In the end, the step-children got the property. They got such property because very early on in our dating relationship, I gave my late husband my word that if he and I married each other and that if he died before me, then I would make sure that particular piece of property would, indeed, go to the step-children.


~ ~ ~ ~ ~

I am very firmly against pre-nups. Regardless of the reason.

If a person wants to marry someone, then they had better trust them. If they don't trust them, they have no reason marrying them.

Additionally, marriage should not be entered into under the mindset of "if it doesn't work out." Often times, when such marriages are created, they don't work out because there never was any other mindset to begin with.

If a family business is wanting to protect such business, then they need to incorporate; or, at the very least, have other legal documents drawn up that clearly outlines how such business will be protected.



Mrs.Wifey -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/2/2008 12:46:43 PM)

I guess I would also be wondering if he has any investments or something else that he is trying to protect. There are a couple of instances where I would be willing to sign a prenup-

1) If my future spouse had a large investment portfolio that they wanted to protect. My DH is a financial planner/advisor and his firm works only with clients who make more then $500k a year. Their clients have well into the millions in investments, I would entirely understand wanting to protect that...

2) A family business, it would be prudent to protect that.



HisCovenant -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/2/2008 2:08:46 PM)

I don't think you can have both faith (read: trust) in a relationship and a pre-nup. IMO (and this is pure opinion,) if you can't trust someone enough to not have a prenup, there isn't enough trust for a lifetime of marriage. I certainally agree that it's prudent for someone to secure a prenup before marriage if they have great wealth...I think it's equally prudent for the one being asked to sign to objectively reexamine the relationship for issues of trust. For me, it'd be a deal breaker because it would indicate issues in either myself or the spouse-to-be. If a prenup was required, it would tell me that either I wasn't trusted, he had trust issues, or both. Those things would be much more important to me to fix than the issue of the prenup. To my mind, the prenup is a symptom of a greater issue that will affect much more than a couple's finances.



crankius -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/2/2008 2:53:33 PM)

I would not sign a pre-nup. [sm=shakinghead.gif]



Give him this pre-nup for him to sign:

I promise to NEVER be an IDIOT.



Tell him the day he can sign that and be legally held to it is the day you will sign a pre-nup of his.

[sm=pinkhairsmile.gif]



Kellgaste -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/2/2008 3:14:52 PM)

WRB: <bows> Integrity, Honor, Faithfulness........[:)] It would seem it all depends on each individual and trying to see them for them and looking past any masks they put on.

Thanks all for answering the Hypo.

I agree Pre-nup's send a message of distrust, and can cause a early fissure in a relationship. Great points.



DaveW -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/2/2008 3:17:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisCovenant

For me, it'd be a deal breaker because it would indicate issues in either myself or the spouse-to-be. If a prenup was required, it would tell me that either I wasn't trusted, he had trust issues, or both. Those things would be much more important to me to fix than the issue of the prenup. To my mind, the prenup is a symptom of a greater issue that will affect much more than a couple's finances.
Would it be a deal breaker if he was a part owner of a family business and the rest of the owners did not want any of the company ownership to leave the family in the event of a divorce or his death required a pre-nup?



Jenny-Fair -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/2/2008 3:25:37 PM)

Incorporation would take care of that.



Tashilein -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/2/2008 3:30:35 PM)

Well don't you become part of the family when you marry your partner? Shouldn't you be considered family? How about any future children who might want to join the family business? If the family insists on a pre-nup... for me it would feel like I wouldn't be good enough for their son. I'm not saying I want to or need to be a part of the family business or be entitled for a part of the business... But it would be unfair to ever let someone chose between love and money. How much would it hurt him if his family made him chose between the woman with whom he wants to spend the rest of his life with and his family's love and business. Is it worth it to risk your son's happiness for a business, money and maybe losing a part of his love?
In case of death there's always a will that could be made up and even changed.



raivyne -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/2/2008 3:39:44 PM)

A prenup is an acknowledgement that the marriage might fail. How can a Godly marriage fail so long as both people remain vigilant in their faith and continue to put God first? I don't see how it can. I wouldn't even entertain the idea of a prenup, or the idea of marrying a man that wanted to have one!

Blessings.



sudden -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/2/2008 3:48:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: raivyne

A prenup is an acknowledgement that the marriage might fail. How can a Godly marriage fail so long as both people remain vigilant in their faith and continue to put God first? I don't see how it can. I wouldn't even entertain the idea of a prenup, or the idea of marrying a man that wanted to have one!

Blessings.



What if it's the woman that wants the prenup? Does that change anything for anyone? Just wondering.

Sudden



Tashilein -> RE: How can you sign a pre-nup & act in faith at the same time? (10/2/2008 3:57:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sudden

What if it's the woman that wants the prenup? Does that change anything for anyone? Just wondering.

Sudden


If I were a man... I wouldn't want a prenup either.

Regardless of the gender of the person wanting a prenup... In my opinion, it's a lack of trust from the person asking for it. A marriage is either meant to be or not but one should not get into a marriage based on what if this or what if that. There will always be "what if"s and with everything in life. You believe in God and that He has a plan for you. He knows all the details, so I should trust Him that He will lead me to the one I'll grow old with and end up in a wheelchair together with fake teeth, grey hair and glasses. Well, I already have the glasses so I just need the rest [sm=biggrin.gif]



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