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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/19/2008 4:22:12 PM
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facedown
Posts: 833
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abraxas
good question(s).
from our perspective, the question is wholly insufficient, because it's forged out of so many preconceptions as to what "sacrifice" means and "does", what christology is all about, as well as soteriology.
so it seems that before your question could garnish any sort of direction or answer, other aspects must be addressed and thought out.
because from a western/fundamentalist approach, your question has some sort of validity - not that it can be properly answered, in my opinion; however, from a different understanding, the question may never be asked, because it quite simply isn't a concluding question to ask.
_____________________________
-| you are the ones who justify yourselves |-
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/25/2008 8:46:13 AM
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abraxas
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Thanks, all the recent posters.
I'm still a little stuck on the "God gave his only begotten" or "Jesus cared enough to die for us" aspects of it--which seems to be how the atonement is most commonly portrayed--becuase a) God only "gave" his son (which is partly himself?) for a tiny blip of time on the eternal scale, and b) no matter how unpleasant dying is, people die all the time and often after far worse physical torture than Christ endured.
So I'm going to presume that there could be a more metaphysical component at work, as some have mentioned (facedown is that what you were talking about?) and it's that component that prevents the "sacrifice" from not really being much of one.
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/25/2008 9:56:07 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1211
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Thanks, all the recent posters.
I'm still a little stuck on the "God gave his only begotten" or "Jesus cared enough to die for us" aspects of it--which seems to be how the atonement is most commonly portrayed--becuase a) God only "gave" his son (which is partly himself?) for a tiny blip of time on the eternal scale, and b) no matter how unpleasant dying is, people die all the time and often after far worse physical torture than Christ endured.
So I'm going to presume that there could be a more metaphysical component at work, as some have mentioned (facedown is that what you were talking about?) and it's that component that prevents the "sacrifice" from not really being much of one.
God gave....we receive. If He hadn't given we couldn't receive. Atonement is truly a misnomer. Atonement only covers, but Christ took away the sins of the world, once, and for all. He is the propitiation of our sins.
We are all here but for a tiny blip on the eternal scale. And yet, we seem to take our time here and the suffering we endure fairly seriously. Why would we think that Christ's suffering was any less real or significant? As to Christ's physical suffering...
Isaiah 52:14
Just as there were many who were appalled at him, his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness
Get the picture? The reality of Christ's physical torture is beyond what we can imagine or view in a Mel Gibson movie. He no longer even looked human. The meaning here is that Christ suffered more on the cross than any other human being ever suffered, anywhere and at anytime.
But, as bad as that is, it was not the worst He suffered. And you have hinted at it yourself. It was in the metaphysical sense that He experienced His worst suffering. He literally took upon Himself all the sins of all mankind, for all time...and the Fathers wrath was released upon Him. The Father turned His back on His only Son, and Satan and his legions of evil angels surrounded Him.
The separation that sin makes between God and man was fully realised in Christ. Whatever that may mean, it is far far worse than what He suffered physically. And what He experienced physically is far far beyond anything we can imagine.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/25/2008 11:18:15 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2965
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Thanks, all the recent posters.
I'm still a little stuck on the "God gave his only begotten" or "Jesus cared enough to die for us" aspects of it--which seems to be how the atonement is most commonly portrayed--becuase a) God only "gave" his son (which is partly himself?) for a tiny blip of time on the eternal scale, and b) no matter how unpleasant dying is, people die all the time and often after far worse physical torture than Christ endured.
So I'm going to presume that there could be a more metaphysical component at work, as some have mentioned (facedown is that what you were talking about?) and it's that component that prevents the "sacrifice" from not really being much of one.
I wouldn't worry about western mindsets or other such
unrelated or opinion laden non-Biblical references to Christ.
We have already been given the MIND of Christ !!!
This is sufficient and will lead us in all the truth of God.
In conjuction with the Holy Spirit, these things can be known.
In the OT God shows us the sacrificial system He employs.
Sin requires a payment, that payment is death.
Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, because we could not.
The OT bloodshedding sacrifices foreshadowed The Lamb slain.
The wages of sin are death, and Jesus' death was our substitute.
It was the ONLY way, and God had already shown us His method.
Nothing but The Holy Blood of Christ can wash away our sin.
We are united in Christ's death and His resurrection.
We are partakers in Christ's death by co-crucifixion.
God is doing and has done EXACTLTY as He told us !
Remember Abraham & Isaac...God will provide a LAMB !
Be cautious of various unique and extra-Biblical denominational
misrepresentations and misinterpretations of The Holy Sacrifice
of our precious Lord Jesus Christ. Some denoms still daily offer a
sacrifice, illustrating their failure to comprehend God's work.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/26/2008 2:45:35 PM
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terryjohn
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It was from our perspective in that we crucified Christ and He willingly allowed us to. In doing so we saw our shame in crucifiying that which had no sin. Hence we saw our own need for if Chirst being sinless was treated in such a manner what will be Christ's response to our own sins?
A sacrifice is something you don't have to do but do it anyway. In love we sacrifice our will for the sake of the one we love. And although Christ paid the price we should all by rights have to pay, I don't believe God needed any payment for before any such payment had been made He sent Christ, which in it self was a sign of forgiveness of sins. Mercy and grace need no payment.
Yes it may be a little thing for God to suffer but the pain and loss of dignity were all too real and not one men would have freely chosen to make. Above all else it was unthinkable that our God would do such a thing and we can only stand stunned that He did. But then again we are now not servants and unrelated but sons and which father would not lay down his life for his sons?
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/26/2008 5:11:56 PM
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deborlie
Posts: 54
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Let me see...........What did God give up?
In the beginning............theire was a thought "Let Us make man...........
What was behind that thought? What was the dream that God had?
And what happened?
God created, and declare it was good...........but,
God was forced to give up His dream,
Give up His plan for man( whatever that was) for the time being, anyway, for His creation
That very creation was stolen from Him. And now belongs to another.
His beloved children, in the hand of another.
One of His own created beings, gifted beyond all the others, turns table. (unexpectedly?)
To buy back, the price is the death of God.
(Would this mean with God dead, removed, Satan would finally gain the throne?) Speculation here.
God watches in horror, His creation abused. We are treated the same as some children of divorce are. Satan dosen't want us, but he doesn't want God to have us either. Satan now knows how to infict pain on God, and does so with a vengence.
Certainly, God could have zapped everything and started over, but...................
Early on, God promises a Savior. The price will not be an easy one to pay.
God rehearses the debt to be paid with Abraham commanded to sacrafice Isaac.
This was done on the same mountain that, Christ would walk at a later date.
God turned His back on His beloved Son, all the while of Chrsts ordeal. (Should He weaken?)
The death of God, and His conquering of death by His Resurection, leads the way to our own Salvation.
God knows not all of His children will chose to follow. Another sacrafice!
Does this help any?
For us the Cross, is the ultimate sacrafice. The wonder that God would do something like that for us! But taking in the whole story, gives the Cross more power, making it more awesome in trying to take in the whole. None of us, this side of heaven has any idea what it really took place, just how much sacrafice was really involved. I suspect much, much more. We are given only what we are capable of understanding
I am not any authority, but this is the way I see it, for now...
Wishing you peace,
BJ
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 10/27/2008 10:15:20 PM
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deborlie
Posts: 54
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To explain myself:
I know the question was: " Christ's sacrifice?"
In the light that John's gospel 1:1-3
1. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD.
2. He was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Jesus (the Word) was the Creator........and also God.
So, I feel the nature of what God/Jesus sacrifice takes in the whole story, not to undermine in anyway, the Ultimate Sacrafice of the Cross. Although the Cross settles it, the story still unfolds and His sacrafice continues, until He walks into eternity with His saints.
I hope this better explains the above.
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 11/22/2008 3:09:01 PM
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terryjohn
Posts: 470
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God owes nobody anything. Not satan, not men. God does not pay for anything because all belong to him. If anything he took back which was always his. Satan and hell belong to Him, evil men exist by His will and grace. With out it they perish. The coming of Christ is the stamp of authority of God on such matters. satan never had the powers men gave him the credit for. God is always God, the problem was mens understanding of that. The ressurrection was a revealtion of the reality. Scripture well says that the truth shall set you free and in Christ we see a personification of the truth of God. There never was a power stuggle with satan for that would be giving too much credit to satan.
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 11/24/2008 12:24:57 AM
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deborlie
Posts: 54
Joined: 8/9/2007
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Greetings TerryJohn
I hear you, and hear what you are sayiing. Below are some verses to consider:
Satan has real power: (of course we know, not greater than God's power. after all he was created just as we were.........but he was given enough power that he thought he could:
Isa 14:12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
13. For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the
stars (Angels) of God; I will also sit on the mount of the
congregation. On the farthest sides of the north.
14. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds ,
I will be like the Most High."
15. Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16. "Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: ‘Is this
the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,
17. Who made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities, Who did
not open the house of his prisoners?"
Prince of the Power of the Air,
Eph2:2 in which you once walked according to the course
of this world according to the prince of the power
of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of
disobedience,
I tried to find the verse where Jesus, Himself called him the prince of the air. It should be found in one of the four Gospels.
Redeemed:
Gal 3:13. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us
(for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree."
Redeemed means buying back something you previously owned.
Because of Satan's lie to our first parents, we were lost to Him. Satan snached us away.
Purchased:
Acts 20:28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock,
among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers,
to shepherd the chruch of God which He PURCHASED with His own blood.
We are purchased and sealed
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of
your salvation; in whom also, having believed, YOU WERE SEALED with
the Holy Spirit of promise,
14.who is the guarantee of our INHERITANCE' until the redemption of the
PURCHASED possession', to the praise of His glory.
The Mediator's Death Necessary:
Hebrews 9:16 For where there is a testament,
there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17. For a testament is in force after men are dead,
since it has no power at all while the testator lives.
18. Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated with out blood.
The above 2 verses kind of explains themselves. No one can receive an inheritance, unless the one who owns a property dies. Unfortunate that this has to happen this way. God was willing , that much, to do this for us. For He so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son........ Our inheritance is the heavenly kingdom, as brothers and sisters in and with Christ.
It's my understanding, that the word 'begotten' as used here, means 'only resurrected' Son.
I wondered about that for a long time, too. This seems to make more sense.. for now at least.
Thank you for questioning me.......If you questioned, others do too. You were braver than most.
I hope this clears up somethings.
BJ
< Message edited by deborlie -- 11/24/2008 12:49:30 AM >
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RE: Christ's Sacrifice - 12/17/2008 1:25:55 AM
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hellohellohi
Posts: 541
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: North Carolina!
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hello abraxas :)
i think there is no such thing as love without "risk." And how can God, the all-knowing, etc., take a risk? Then how can He love? i think it's all the same question!
i think, say, the answer is that God risks much and thus loves much by being incognito. He may sort of-ish appear to us in our consciousnesses -- but who can say for sure?? Such is rather incognito in that it is entirely inner to our subjectivities and concealed from collective view. BUT, it is even more incognito to dispense with this approach altogether and to come with ultimate decisiveness (rather than, maybe entering our consciousnesses, maybe not) as an interiority Himself, concealed -- incognito! Utterly deniable! And that's what happened in a rather final way on the cross -- even, in a momentary -- and how eternal and terrifying is the moment! -- way exhibited by one of his most ardent disciples -- denial.
The silly consciousness-entering God does not seem very venturesome or risky to me! How easy! Playing games with people -- pah! He must have come as a human!!! :)
To the extent that I believe in a personal American Jesus who lives in my brain, I am nothing but a democrat or a pamphleteer. Who cares what flag I fly on my lawn? To say I know because that's what I find on my inside -- how does that risk anything in this society? It is nothing. Everyone has a God. But it still seems absurd and therefore believable to suppose the God of love came as a single individual, which is to say, incognito.
Now, this is not to say that He doesn't confront our consciousnesses -- only in that capacity he is infinitely ambiguous -- or maybe even ambivalent!! -- What else can you call "omnipotence meets free will," but perfect ambivalence! A paradox! His true INTENTION is to be human, in that way, so He can love, by risking us failing to -- or, which it would have to be, -- refusing to recognize him.
And I can't truly know his love without risking myself in saying that he came as a single individual -- indeed, not only am I risking the absurdity of de-emphasizing the splendid glory and inner certainty manifest by my God to me but I am even risking sacrilege to say that God is no ghost (I do not mean to deny the Helper), no aura, no unifying force, no splendor of the Universe, but a single human... and, well, a servant. A noble servant? No... He would find some way to avoid that earthly deification, which is to say, short of God's. An examplar of humanity or of humanism? No, a bit of a misanthrope that wanted us to deny ourselves. A charasmatic cult leader? Yes, but one who remarkably ended up with no True Believers at the very end! No one drank the kool aid with JC!
See ya
Hope that helped, cuz it helped me just now!!
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