How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (Full Version)

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stellaluna -> How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (9/30/2008 2:59:55 PM)

I'm starting this thread for a couple of reasons.

1) I have opened my mouth and inserted my foot several times over the past few months while talking to unbelievers. This has occurred in each case when they've been bashing Christianity, I've had a surge of adrenaline and next thing you know, I'm going off and hurting people and feeling dumb.

2) I have managed to offend some people who claim to be Christians by calling them on things that they are doing that are decidedly un-Christ-like.

Please understand while doing so, I am fully aware of my shortcomings, my own struggles, my logs, etc. I am a work in progress and I'm humble enough to admit it. And in the case of #2, I'm not calling people on small things...I'm talking about the three women I know who are "Christian," pregnant out of wedlock and living with their boyfriends, etc.

So my question is...and this kind of goes along with the judging thing...how "offensive" should we be in our faith? How much should we worry about hurting people's feelings when we're telling them the truth?



manda59 -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (9/30/2008 4:18:32 PM)

Unless someone is in actual physical danger (and even then not always, if I think the person already knows what I'd think), I tend not to say anything unless they ask my opinion.
I will often silently pray that if God wants me to say something, that person will be led to ask my opinion. Or even for my advice/help.

And then I will give it, lovingly but firmly.



raivyne -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (9/30/2008 4:32:01 PM)

Good question. I don't really have an answer, just a few thoughts.

If you do speak out, remember love the person but hate the sin. Recall how Jesus rebuked people, out of love but with honesty. I would say it is never OK to be offensive towards another person... but recognize they will not always embrace you for speaking truth.

I don't know if you are a parent or not, but think of it this way - your kid does something stupid. do you call him or her stupid or say "how could you be so stupid?" - or do you try to help them to see why what they did was incorrect?

i dunno if i did a good job explaining that or not...



phosadaud -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (9/30/2008 4:39:38 PM)

Good question! Sometimes it feels like such a balancing act. When to speak. When to stay silent. Then, when we should speak, how to speak. Certainly Jesus offended folks. I doubt any of the money changers in the temples were patting him on the back after he dumped all their tables over. [:D]On the other, I think sometimes as Christians we can simply be jerks and think if we offend people that if proof that we are being "good Christians" and not "being friends with the world" (the martyr complex). Yet, Paul tells us that as much as we are able, to live at peace with one another. So, when is it not possible? I guess that's the question.

Personally, I'm still trying to find that fine line. [&:]

For me, I would say that we should never compromise our faith or our integrity. Our integrity should always be more important than making friends or being liked. Always. I grew up in a church that valued being "liked" more than it valued holiness. On the other hand, I know of churches that value the appearance of holiness more than they do relationships. When I read the Gospels, I see a God who values both and that the two work hand in hand not to the exclusion of the other.

I would also say that we need God's wisdom on when to speak up. I don't think we always need to say something everytime we see an issue. It's not up to us to "fix" people. We can't see the entire picture so as such, we need to seek God's guidance in our responses. Maybe He is having someone else confront the person. Maybe he wants us to. That's where we need to walk in the Spirit. Also, when we do need to speak up, there are ways to say things and ways not to say things. We need to know when to inform, when to pray with, when to stand firm, when to be confrontational. That goes back to walking in the Spirit and listening to God's voice. In addition, we need to make sure what we speak is truth. Too often, we offend folks not because of our values, but because we twist things and lie to make our points (for instance - demonizing the "other side").

All that to say that I think our focus shouldn't be on offending or not offending. It should be on loving as Christ loves us. Sometimes that love will be offensive (love doesn't pat someone on the back as they head straight for a cliff). Love isn't soft and fuzzy. On the other hand, sometimes that love will be gentle and comforting. How folks respond (being offended or not) is really not up to us nor is it any measure of how faithful we are being in our walks.



LCannon -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (9/30/2008 4:43:59 PM)

Often pointing out the obvious(or the fruit of past disobedience)tends to harden their resolve to justify one action for it's not the fruit's fault. It's better perhaps in both cases to affirm, 'Oh! are you familiar with...(a ministry)?' or encourage personal growth rather then criticize the fruit of an unfortunate choice.



Qtman -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (9/30/2008 4:48:08 PM)

I don't think we could be more offensive than Jesus was. How did He talk to the Pharisees. I believe he called them vipers, and hypocrites. It is time for Christians to stop playing with words and spread the gospel.



stellaluna -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (9/30/2008 5:24:08 PM)

Here's one example of me offending a non-Christian.

I walked into my friend's backyard for a cookout and literally came face-to-face with a woman I didn't know, who was loudly telling a group of 4 or 5 people why Christianity has been "disproven." That's the exact word she used. This amused and intrigued me and so I stopped to listen. Well, as I listened I realized that she didn't have any evidence of anything, nothing scientific, nothing debatable. She quoted something she read off a Starbuck's cup (wish I could remember who was quoted) and then was ranting about Christians. When she took a breath, I asked her if she was unfamiliar with Christianity. She said she went to Catholic school her whole life. I said, "That's not what I asked. Are you unfamiliar with Christianity? In other words, have you read and studied the bible or are you just repeating what you've heard other people say?"

That was the initial thing that made her mad. She said she didn't have to read the bible to know she didn't believe what it said. I said I disagreed and I didn't make a habit of criticizing something I didn't know anything about. And as a follower of Christ, I would appreciate if she would study up on it before she bashed my faith in front of me, because after all, you never know who's listening. That was the second thing that made her mad, she turned red, said I was a sheep or something like that under her breath and stomped off. I didn't see her again. Everyone she was talking to was looking at me like I just grew a second head, so I left as well.

I don't feel bad about the exchange at all. I'm wondering if I should.



dpmartin -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (9/30/2008 6:24:06 PM)

if I may add

prov:9:
7: He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.
8: Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.
9: Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

If they want to know they will ask. Just keep yourself available to them. In this also we can understand how the Lord long suffered us, when He awaited for us to come to. Be careful for it is the Mercy of God that should be understood by them that is available to them, not condemnation. The world teaches condemnation to them all the time so they can get condemnation without you. But the Mercy and understanding of God they can get with you, for the Lord is with you. If they understand that then it is probably just a matter of time.



LCannon -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (9/30/2008 6:24:10 PM)

Far be it from me that I should critique your effort(it was your opportunity); I generally like to take an offensively posture always taking into to account of the listeners of the conversation. Rather then a condescending tone('Are you unfamiliar with Christianity?')that almost guarantees conflict generally I find, 'Oh! are you familiar with...?' is a springboard. Their response(or lack there of)is a pretty good barometer of where the discussion is headed. Some opportunities for whatever reason are destined to blow up in our faces; learn from them, refine one's technique and look for the next opportunity! After all, they're all His opportunities and we're not called to save em; we're called to obedience.



stellaluna -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (9/30/2008 7:43:24 PM)

Well, that's all constructive criticism. I've really felt at the end of my rope sometimes over the past few months. I don't normally run into that many people who are so vocally anti-Christian, but I have lately! Anyone want to hear about my email exchange with the local theater group that was doing the play that made fun of Jesus? [8|]



stellaluna -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (9/30/2008 7:46:50 PM)

And someone I know pretty well was ranting and raving about the election and abortion rights and she said all women should stand up and protect our choice and she had some email about it that she was going to send to me and I could forward it to my friends. I said don't bother, I'm not going to forward it. And she said why and I said because the opposite of life isn't choice, it's death. That was a few weeks ago and she's still miffed at me. That is kind of a different thing, but if someone can rant to me about something I don't believe in, aren't I allowed to say what I do believe in? And as Christians, shouldn't we?

I want to hear from some people at what point you would vigorously defend your faith or other beliefs.



Liveloved -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (9/30/2008 8:34:25 PM)

Stellaluna,

The truth does offend. But we are not to be offensive. Does that make sense? I know the struggle and the questions you are wrestling with. But when Jesus approached and talked with others, He was addressing their heart need---not talking about 'issues' or defending what He believed to be true. Nor do we (have to talk issues or be defensive). Instead we need to cultivate our hearts and our listening ears so that we can hear and identify the heart need of the person we want to speak to. And that is usually done one on one rather than in a group setting. Group discussions are generally too ego driven to be productive or constructive from a spiritual standpoint.

I don't have to defend Jesus. He is my life. I need to live, breathe and speak Jesus. And I want Jesus forming my heart, my mind, and my ear so that I hear the needs of others and address their needs just as He did. I am still very much in the formation stage. But He is faithful and patient. And He will be with you too.

Bless you, dear one! LL



phosadaud -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (9/30/2008 8:57:37 PM)

I don't think being blunt is always a bad thing and Jesus did discuss issues - because issues are things that come from the heart. And He was certainly blunt at times.[;)] Sometimes things need to be in your face. I'm not saying that to make excuses, but rather because there have been times folks were in my face and I am thankful. They did it for the right reasons and the "shock" of what they said is what made me stop in my tracks and really rethink what I was believing in and doing. True, I wasn't thrilled at first, but that's ok. I got over it and grew.

One of those things was when I was a young teen and having a rather arrogant conversation with my mom extolling my then pro-choice views. My dad cut in having listened to us from another room and simply said one phrase: "But what about the baby?". I was annoyed, but you know what. I couldn't get that out of my head. For the next year, that simple phrase played in my head and after prayer and Bible study, I would become pro-life. That blunt, in your face phrase was exactly what I needed to hear and I thank my father for not being afraid to say it.

Yes, this takes discernment. I can't speak to either situation you gave. It may have been ill-timed or it may have been exactly what needed to have been said. I don't know. That's where we need to learn to hear and abide by the still small voice that is the Holy Spirit and not simply react but rather be obedient. And I believe sometimes being obedient will stop people in their tracks.



zamdad -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (9/30/2008 11:14:07 PM)

I guess for me being offensive comes naturally. I worked in corrections for 16 years, most of it as a probation officer, and now work as a cop. God put me in the business of behavior modification.

He taught me many life lessons by having people tell me what they think. Did it upset me? Yeah, at the time I was angry. But, I soon got over it and found that it caused me to get over myself and grow.

In working with probationers, the goal is to change behavior. In order to change behavior, one has to change thinking. To change thinking one has to change attitudes, values and beliefs. The goal of corrections is the same short term goal as Christianity. When we come to know Jesus, He changes our heart, our attitudes, values and beliefs and, ultimately, our behavior. Of course, the long term goal is eternal salvation. Corrections can't offer that, but it puts some on the right path.

One of the lessons I leanred at a Christian conference I attended was this saying, "Rules without relationship equals rebellion." As a PO I applied this to my job. Yes, I would get in the face of offenders and say some things they needed to hear and did not like hearing. But, at the same time I still had to be there for them when they earned another stripe to the black and blue lettermans jacket from the school of hard knocks. I had to be firm and administer consequence and, at the same time, be willing to walk along side on the path to a new way of thinking. It's a time consuming process of costly caring. It's a failure to care enough for others to let them know they are doing wrong that has been leading us down the destructive path our nation seems to have taken.

That being said, I have also seen some folks who truly love the Lord try to confront sin and do more harm than good. Bashing people over the head with the Bible does not heal wounds. People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.



SonInMe1 -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (9/30/2008 11:22:57 PM)

Some people want to know.

Some just want to argue. I would avoid the arguements. If you get into a conversation with someone who is agreesively against christianity, make your points humbly and in control.



Lynn_J -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (10/1/2008 9:37:18 AM)

I believe that we are to be proactive with our faith, but always keeping in mind 2 Timothy 2:24-26 - "And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."

I think that many Christians "speak the Word boldly" but forget that they are also to be kind, loving, and gentle.

Peace,
Lynn



URForgiven -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (10/1/2008 10:36:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

I'm starting this thread for a couple of reasons.

1) I have opened my mouth and inserted my foot several times over the past few months while talking to unbelievers. This has occurred in each case when they've been bashing Christianity, I've had a surge of adrenaline and next thing you know, I'm going off and hurting people and feeling dumb.

2) I have managed to offend some people who claim to be Christians by calling them on things that they are doing that are decidedly un-Christ-like.

Please understand while doing so, I am fully aware of my shortcomings, my own struggles, my logs, etc. I am a work in progress and I'm humble enough to admit it. And in the case of #2, I'm not calling people on small things...I'm talking about the three women I know who are "Christian," pregnant out of wedlock and living with their boyfriends, etc.

So my question is...and this kind of goes along with the judging thing...how "offensive" should we be in our faith? How much should we worry about hurting people's feelings when we're telling them the truth?


Our "job" is not to point out un-Christ-like behaviors to people, our job is to point them to Jesus. It is His job to clean up the inside which in turn will clean up the outside. It is inside out, not outside in.

Peace



Lynn_J -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (10/1/2008 11:04:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

Our "job" is not to point out un-Christ-like behaviors to people, our job is to point them to Jesus. It is His job to clean up the inside which in turn will clean up the outside. It is inside out, not outside in.

Peace



Amen.



Liveloved -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (10/1/2008 12:38:55 PM)

Stellaluna,

InTouch magazine, the magazine from Charles Stanley's ministry, has an excellent article this month on this topic. The article is called From Debate to Dialogue: Bridging the Spiritual Communication Gap by Joan Ball. Perhaps you could find the article or receive a copy by going to www.intouch.org.

One of the things the article points out is that there is a distinct and important difference between standing and demanding. When we are driven by love for Him and for the one we're speaking with as well as compassion for those who do not know Him, we're standing. Then we can ask provocative questions with the desire to truly understand the other person rather than trying to corner them.

When we 'demand' by criticizing or condemning others WITHOUT understanding them, we're "making a dangerous shift from righteousness to self-righteousness". Anyway I thought of you and this question and thought you (and others) might be interested in reading this article. Bless you!



stellaluna -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (10/1/2008 12:44:29 PM)

I'll read it. (Or I'll look for it.)

I want to repeat this, though, because no one has answered it:
quote:


That is kind of a different thing, but if someone can rant to me about something I don't believe in, aren't I allowed to say what I do believe in? And as Christians, shouldn't we?

I want to hear from some people at what point you would vigorously defend your faith or other beliefs.

I want to know if Christians should stand idly by as we watch the Fred Phelpses of the world loudly proclaiming his brand of Christianity. (Or anyone who says things that aren't true about what we believe?)

AND let me add that apologetics may play a roll here? I do know some Christians that can't defend their faith to a paper bag.



Lynn_J -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (10/1/2008 1:02:42 PM)

Hi Stellaluna,

No, Christians shouldn't stand idly by, but we should remember how Jesus talked about the Kingdom. He didn't argue, but was concise, made His point, and left it at that. I don't believe we are called to defend the Gospel. We are called to proclaim the Gospel, love people, and make disciples. And we are admonished to be able to give an answer to anyone who asks why we have the hope in Christ that we do. But note how Peter instructs us to do that:

1 Pet. 3:15-16 - "But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander."

Peace,
Lynn



deliveredarling -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (10/1/2008 1:04:58 PM)

quote:


That is kind of a different thing, but if someone can rant to me about something I don't believe in, aren't I allowed to say what I do believe in? And as Christians, shouldn't we?

I want to hear from some people at what point you would vigorously defend your faith or other beliefs.


Absolutely! Without fear and proclaim it boldly.

At what point do we stop? When they reject it. Jesus told His disciples as He sent them out into the cities, that if they were rejected, to shake the dust from their feet and keep moving.

We are to do the same. It's not our job to save or convince anyone. Maybe we are just a seed planter and God has plans for another to come along a water...

Just some thoughts here:

Don't feel guilty about the interchange with that woman. It was her own words that made her show her lack of education, not you.

Should we call people on behavior such as you gave the example of. My personal belief is yes. If I am given the opportunity to hear another say those things, then I am given the same opportunity to proclaim the truth.

The truth is offensive and we can try as hard as possible to not be offensive and yet it still offends. I won't deny the truth to spare someone's feelings.

EX: Homosexuality, nope The Word is very clear.

By the way, in the end, feelings don't matter, it's the choice we make that determines where we spend eternity[;)]



LCannon -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (10/1/2008 2:38:00 PM)

The reality, one of them, is in our passion to proclaim the truth, society doesn't always understand or want to understand. Proclaiming the 'reasons' to the unrepentant outside belief is like dropping water on a drowning man; he's going to drown anyway.

"We hardly ever relate our theology to the current world philosophy. It is not that we do not know the answers. My observation is that most people don't even know the questions. "
-Francis Schaeffer-



phosadaud -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (10/1/2008 3:58:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

I'll read it. (Or I'll look for it.)

I want to repeat this, though, because no one has answered it:
quote:


That is kind of a different thing, but if someone can rant to me about something I don't believe in, aren't I allowed to say what I do believe in? And as Christians, shouldn't we?

I want to hear from some people at what point you would vigorously defend your faith or other beliefs.

I want to know if Christians should stand idly by as we watch the Fred Phelpses of the world loudly proclaiming his brand of Christianity. (Or anyone who says things that aren't true about what we believe?)

AND let me add that apologetics may play a roll here? I do know some Christians that can't defend their faith to a paper bag.


Personally, I think if Christians don't speak out, that "speaks" louder than anything.

I for one am one who stands up for what I believe in. If someone is causing harm to another, I won't stay silent. I won't suddenly stay silent simply because my faith is involved. That doesn't mean I'll be outrageous about it or be a jerk. All things should be done in love. I guess I don't see silence as love though.

BTW - I'm not talking about expecting people to live Christian lives. I'm talking basic human decency and morality.

In addition - if we are looking for biblical support, I think the Book of Acts is a great place to start. Paul and the Apostles were very vocal "defenders" of the faith and they "defended" the faith and their actions clear up to the highest levels of government. Acts 4:5-22; Acts 5:22-34; Acts 7; Acts 17:16-34; Acts 21:37- and on and on...



the_silver_cup -> RE: How offensively should we live for God? Or should we be offensive at all? (10/1/2008 4:40:14 PM)

stellaluna...Keep up the good work![:D]



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