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RE: THIS IS THE BIG ONE!!!!! - 10/23/2008 8:36:43 PM
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.ABBA.
Posts: 150
Joined: 6/16/2005
Status: offline
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G'Day,,
quote:
I know I seem to disagree, but I agree.
The Bible only teaches the RESURRECTION.
In another end times folder it was argued that the "rapture"
is the "means" of the RESURRECTION. That I buy.
Rev 11
11 But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them.
12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here " Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.
Rev 4
1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things."
Rev 1
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
 food for thought,
yours In Christ,,
God Bless
_____________________________
HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, Lord God Almighty-
which was, and is, and is to come.
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RE: THIS IS THE BIG ONE!!!!! - 10/25/2008 11:46:19 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 443
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, LoyalGypsy!
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom Lapidoth.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
While Lapidoth is right about the Resurrection being the main event, a subordinate event to the Resurrection will be the Rapture (or the Harpazo) as it is described in II Thess. 4:13-17:
quote:
All that comes from these debates in hard feelings and anger at the people that don't agree with us.
I know I seem to disagree, but I agree.
The Bible only teaches the RESURRECTION.
In another end times folder it was argued that the "rapture"
is the "means" of the RESURRECTION. That I buy.
I choose to say "there is no rapture" for the very reason Fwanger observed.
When we use the word "rapture" then we push eveyone's theology buttons.
We do all agree {for the most part} that we will be RESURRECTED. Unless we
are of the Sadducees. So, I prefer not to use the word rapture for the ideology
that it brings to mind.
RESURRECTION is the event; RAPTURE is the vehicle. lol.
Thanks for the comment on Yohann the mikveh guy.
I hadn't thought of that angle.
I see your point, now. That's cool. It falls into the same category as to why Messianic Jews don't use the word "Christian." There's just too much history with too many bad feelings attached for Jews to use the word, even if they believe in Yeshua`, especially when they are attempting to talk to other Jews about the Messiah.
Yes, you're right; to use the word DOES polarize people into their various theological positions. Yeah, I tend to see the Harpazo as a "mass transit system" to get us to Isra'el in a hurry so Yeshua` can arrive with His army quickly to rescue His nation Yisra'el.
Oh, and you're welcome.
Retrobyter
Greetings,
quote:
Yes, you're right; to use the word DOES polarize people into their various theological positions. Yeah, I tend to see the Harpazo as a "mass transit system" to get us to Isra'el in a hurry so Yeshua` can arrive with His army quickly to rescue His nation Yisra'el.
It’s not the same thought....
…….Harpazo is to seize, to carry off “by force”... if we look at how Jesus phrased that here in this example….
Sure it is, my friend! Check out the Greek of 1Thess. 4:17:
17 epeita heemeis hoi zoontes hoi perileipomenoi hama sun autois harpageesometha en nefelais eis apanteesin tou Kuriou eis aera: Kai houtoos pantote sun Kurioo esometha.
The Greek word translated "shall be caught up" is "harpageesometha" stems from "harpazo." That's how the messengers (aggeloi) will "snatch us away!" The word does not always carry the connotation of "violence."
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
Mt 11:12 - Show Context
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force = Harpazo is to seize by force… or QUICKLY
So what was written before the AND in v11:12 above is the addition to what is explained in v13
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied (THAT) until John. (Which means John did not)
Yes, this is another time that a form of harpazo (harpazousin = "take by force") was used, only this time including the words "biazetai" ("suffereth violence") and "biastai" ("violent").
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
Now here is the key.. If we are willing to receive it
14 And if you are willing to receive it ...he (John) is (the forerunner) of Elijah... “who is to come. …That’s an end time reference!
15 He who has ears to “hear, let him “hear! = a revelation of the pattern to be kept in the last days…
SO what does that mean??
... Jesus said …..he is Elijah ....who is to come
Jesus did not say he (John) is Elijah …who had come...he said ..."who is" to come,
…..so the reference is prophetic to the “example of John”… who didn’t preach what all the prophets and the law prophesied.
It means that Yochanan the Submerger (John the Baptist) came and will come again in the spirit of Eliyahu (Elijah) (much as did Elisha’) because he is the forerunner of Messiah the King! It was and will be again like the job of a town cryer who announces the coming of the King through the town.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
That which I just offered ......is what Paul is expressing by saying speaking of here saying... how he was caught up into Paradise ....and.... heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter
2 Corinthians 12:1-10
And I know such a man--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
What is the understanding in current Jewish and Christian prophecy of Elijah’s role "or the cup of Elijah" in the last day, Does any one have any info on that?
LG
At the time of the fourth cup, the cup of Thanksgiving and Completion, in the Passover Seder, the Jews have traditions which include opening the front door and having everyone rise to welcome the navi` Eliyahu (the prophet Elijah), saying that he is the “bearer of good tidings of joy and peace” and is associated with the coming of the Messiah whom he will announce as the Messiah’s forerunner. They will read Malachi 4:4-6a
Mal. 4:4-6
4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers….
KJV
Now, the legend says that Eliyahu visits each Jewish home at the Seder and sips from the cup (reminding me of the way Santa Claus visits every home in a single night), but today it remains on the table as a sign of God’s continuing promise of the Messiah’s renewal.
At this point, Messianic believers will add that Yeshua` said that Eliyahu who was to come was Yochanan the Submerger (John the Baptist), but that he and the Messiah had already come and we now wait for the Messiah’s return and they will then close the door.
However, Eliyahu should come again a second time at the Messiah’s return, because verse 6 above has not yet been fulfilled in relationship to the “great and dreadful day of the LORD” in verse 5.
Retrobyter
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