She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (Full Version)

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stampinlady -> She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/24/2008 2:02:38 PM)

I recently saw Darlene Zseche( sorry if I spelled her name wrong) at our church and she was wearing a Peace symbol. I was always taught that this was a broken cross and hardly about peace, in fact remember John Lennons song??? Anyway, it bothered me the whole concert. Should leaders, and I consider her in a leadership position, watch what they wear, act say in public? Am I being too sensitive? Let me say that I'm not one to think eveythings going to get better, not till Jesus comes back anyway, but I do know we are suppose to pray for peace.



moon_mouse -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/24/2008 2:09:21 PM)

I didn't know what the origin was, so I looked it up. It's actually a very recent invention (1958), and has its origin in the semaphone signals for "N" and "D", standing for "nuclear disarmament". It has since expanded in meaning to encompass a number of peace related issues, and for others it's just a retro 60's era decoration.

http://history1900s.about.com/od/1950s/qt/peacesymbol.htm



Kat_D -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/24/2008 2:44:19 PM)

Deb, it is my understanding that the origin of the Peace Symbol/"Nero's Cross" was that it symbolized the destruction of Christianity to Roman emperor Nero, who hated and persecuted the early Christians. It was revived in the sixties by hippies and others who protested nuclear weapons, Western culture, Christianity, etc.

As such, imo, it would never be an appropriate thing for a Christian to wear, but some are just ignorant to it's origin or they just don't care.



MrFribbles -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/24/2008 7:12:00 PM)

quote:

it is my understanding that the origin of the Peace Symbol/"Nero's Cross" was that it symbolized the destruction of Christianity to Roman emperor Nero, who hated and persecuted the early Christians. It was revived in the sixties by hippies and others who protested nuclear weapons, Western culture, Christianity, etc.


Do you have any data to back that up?


As for the OP -
Yes, those in leadership should absolutely hold themselves to a higher standard. However, it's very possible that this individual did not know that some people took offense at the peace symbol. Peace is, after all, a funny thing to be offended about.



GregandJenny -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/25/2008 4:08:08 AM)

quote:

As such, imo, it would never be an appropriate thing for a Christian to wear, but some are just ignorant to it's origin


I think this is probably the case. I wonder what other symbols we wear that we don't know the orgins.

G



stampinlady -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/25/2008 9:07:10 AM)

quote:

I wonder what other symbols we wear that we don't know the orgins.


I remember a friend of our family, who was Italian, gave up wearing her gold horn after she got saved because it's pagan. Every Italian person I knew growing up wore one. It was very popular in the 70's. Anyway, I hope I didn't sound judgemental because that's not my intent. My eyes just kept seeing this peace sign the whole morning. Now I know that there is no peace without Jesus, but I don't think I'd wear one knowing it's past.



Child4Jesus -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/25/2008 11:14:33 AM)

I think these things can go too far at times.

I do think that leaders should watch what they do, say, etc. On the other hand there are people who become offended at everything and want to control what others do. One person is convicted to not have a TV. Then all Christians shouldn't have TV's. If you have one you are a bad Christian.

I have heard some of these things about the peace symbol. However Christians who wear it aren't representing those things I would assume. Also the meaning of things change over time. Just because at one time this symbol meant something doesn't mean that is the only meaning it will ever have. I mean when I say peace out or hold up my pointer finger and middle finger I don't mean anything sinister by it. If it did mean something sinister at one time, that isn't that I mean.

I believe this stuff sometimes comes from people being superstitious. Objects have no power by themselves.



stampinlady -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/25/2008 11:27:32 AM)

But could some of these things make another brother/sister stumble?



MrFribbles -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/25/2008 11:32:01 AM)

quote:

But could some of these things make another brother/sister stumble?


Potentially, yes. But remember two things. First, "stumble" means that someone has to actually sin. If seeing the peace symbol actually made you or someone else sin, then it's a genuine problem. Otherwise, it's not, in terms of stumbling. Second, some things just are not expected to cause stumbling. Suppose someone was somehow led into sin because I wore argyle socks. Would I have done wrong? No, because I had no idea that argyle socks were a stumbling block for them. But if this person had come to me and asked me to not wear argyle socks because it was leading them into sin, then yes, I would have done wrong if I continued to wear them.



Child4Jesus -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/25/2008 11:58:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stampinlady
But could some of these things make another brother/sister stumble?


See what MrFribbles said.

Like he said stumble as I see it means that you have cause the person to sin. However like he said it has to be something that can be expected to cause someone to stumble. I drive a Metallic Gray 2008 Toyota Camry. If someone comes to me and said that my car has cause them to sin, I would say to them how so? How can that be possible? If they say I'm filled with jealously am I to get rid of it and never drive a car again? See where I'm going?

How about blue shirts? Green pants?

See how it can become another person controlling you?



moon_mouse -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/25/2008 12:01:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

Do you have any data to back that up?



I'd like to see some links to support that as well. A cursory Google search turned up only one site that credited the symbol with pagan origins, and that was a Christian website that also said the University of Texas "Hook 'Em Horns" had its origin in a pagan gesture for devil's horns. [8|] Another site noted a similarity to some Norse runes, but couldn't provide evidence for anything more than a similarity of appearance. All the other sites traced the symbol to Gerald Holtom, a British conscientious objector who drew from semaphore symbols to create the logo.



Kat_D -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/25/2008 12:02:33 PM)

quote:

I drive a Metallic Gray 2008 Toyota Camry.


A Camry could stumble someone?...they'd have to have very low standards![8|]



moon_mouse -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/25/2008 12:05:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stampinlady

But could some of these things make another brother/sister stumble?


How? In order to stumble someone actually has to be led to sin, not just to think badly of someone. And where does personal responsibility on the part of the observer come in? I would hope someone who wondered about what she was wearing would ask her what (if anything) the symbol meant before making an assumption about her.



Kat_D -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/25/2008 12:10:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: moon_mouse

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

Do you have any data to back that up?



I'd like to see some links to support that as well. A cursory Google search turned up only one site that credited the symbol with pagan origins, and that was a Christian website that also said the University of Texas "Hook 'Em Horns" had its origin in a pagan gesture for devil's horns. [8|] Another site noted a similarity to some Norse runes, but couldn't provide evidence for anything more than a similarity of appearance. All the other sites traced the symbol to Gerald Holtom, a British conscientious objector who drew from semaphore symbols to create the logo.


Here's one. If you just google Nero's Cross...nah, that'd be too easy.



Child4Jesus -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/25/2008 12:16:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Do you have any data to back that up?


quote:

ORIGINAL: moon_mouse
I'd like to see some links to support that as well. A cursory Google search turned up only one site that credited the symbol with pagan origins, and that was a Christian website that also said the University of Texas "Hook 'Em Horns" had its origin in a pagan gesture for devil's horns. [8|] Another site noted a similarity to some Norse runes, but couldn't provide evidence for anything more than a similarity of appearance. All the other sites traced the symbol to Gerald Holtom, a British conscientious objector who drew from semaphore symbols to create the logo.


This kind of stuff is what makes some people think Christians are weirdos. Is there nothing that people won't try to tie to paganism or Satan or whatever? I'm sure somehow someway someone will trying to connect the Windows symbol or Apple symbol to some pagan thing. Oh the windows flag has the same colors of the cult that worships the moon so you better not use any windows products. Or the Apple apple looks like the symbol that apple worshipers thousands of years ago used. So that ipod or iphone you have is bad and you should get rid of it.



moon_mouse -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/25/2008 12:20:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kat_D
Here's one. If you just google Nero's Cross...nah, that'd be too easy.


While there's some disagreement on the origins, and sites that are historically based attribute the symbol to the semaphore origin. In my opinion, the Nero's Cross origin seems tenuous at best, and primarily put forward by sites that specifically seek to find pagan origins in whatever they can.

(On another note, I sensed a bit of snarkiness in that comment. I don't think that's really necessary. I was just asking for some clarification on where you found your information, since the sources I was seeing didn't draw a strong connection.)



moon_mouse -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/25/2008 12:22:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
I'm sure somehow someway someone will trying to connect the Windows symbol or Apple symbol to some pagan thing. Oh the windows flag has the same colors of the cult that worships the moon so you better not use any windows products. Or the Apple apple looks like the symbol that apple worshipers thousands of years ago used. So that ipod or iphone you have is bad and you should get rid of it.


[:D]How about the apple as a symbol for forbidden wisdom! Not my iphone...NOOOOOoooooo!



Kat_D -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/25/2008 12:32:33 PM)

quote:

(On another note, I sensed a bit of snarkiness in that comment. I don't think that's really necessary.


Yes, I confess there was...it was because you gave your explanation of the origin of the symbol and no one asked you for proof... but, it was uncalled for, please accept my apology.



moon_mouse -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/25/2008 12:43:26 PM)

Apology accepted.

I think the reason MrFibbles asked you for proof (and actually he didn't ask for proof, just support) and he didn't ask me was that I provided a link to one of the sources where I got my information. The link you provided only led to a picture of the symbol, not information supporting your statement on its origins.



Kat_D -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/25/2008 1:23:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: moon_mouse

Apology accepted.

I think the reason MrFibbles asked you for proof (and actually he didn't ask for proof, just support) and he didn't ask me was that I provided a link to one of the sources where I got my information. The link you provided only led to a picture of the symbol, not information supporting your statement on its origins.


Thank you for your graciousness.

Yes, I did just put the picture in the first link in case people didn't know what we were talking about. My second link has info, however, and I saw a number of sites with the same info when I googled Nero's Cross.



moon_mouse -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/25/2008 1:44:06 PM)

First, it's important to look at the purpose of the website and who produces it, and take that into account in how much credence you give to what it says. There seems to be a thread in current Christianity that sees pagan influence in just about everything. These Christians unfortunately often mistake cosmetic similarity for origin. Any child drawing stars might eventually stumble upon the discovery that two triangles drawn on top of one another create a star. Just because it happens to look like the Star of David doesn't mean they're secretly Jewish. I'm not saying that there isn't some possible connection between Nero's cross and the Peace Symbol, just that the preponderance of the evidence in websites dedicated to history indicates the semaphore origin.

Second, if one wants to find information about the peace symbol, it makes more sense to use "peace symbol" as the search item, rather than "Nero's cross". Using "Nero's cross" as the search term would tend to give high visibility to sites that attribute the peace symbol to that origin and place sites that mention the proposed connection and then discard/discredit it further down the search results. Using "peace symbol" as your search term doesn't lead to that preselection, and would not be likely to prejudice against sites that mention in a positive manner the Nero's cross connection.

Interestingly, I have been listening to a UC Berkley podcast series of a class on the Roman Empire. New scholarship is taking a fresh look at Nero and the persecution of Christians. While it is certain that Christians were persecuted under Nero, some scholars now believe that the scale of the actual persecution was exaggerated by later Christians for their own purposes. (Of course any persecution of anyone for their religious beliefs is horrible.) This article makes some of the same points the prof did.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/3678/Nero.htm

It's still a controversial thesis, but an interesting one!



Kat_D -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/25/2008 2:04:52 PM)

^^^ Well, one could say those Christian sites may be more relevant to a Christian forum than About.com. too!

It is a common theory among Christians in general that the peace symbol is anti-Christian or of at least questionable origin. Therefore, I do not think anyone in a place of leadership or who stands up as a representative of Christianity (who is aware of that fact) should wear one. That said, not being aware is not an excuse. They should most definitely do their homework before they wear any sort of symbol because they are in the public eye...just because a stylist gives a Christian entertainer something she/he thinks is fashionable or cool to wear doesn't mean she has to wear it.



GregandJenny -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/25/2008 2:20:01 PM)

quote:

It is a common theory among Christians in general that the peace symbol is anti-Christian or of at least questionable origin.


I have been a Christan for 13 years and I have never heard that. Also how is the peace symbol in Australia, where DZ is from.

G



moon_mouse -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/25/2008 2:20:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kat_D

^^^ Well, one could say those Christian sites may be more relevant to a Christian forum than About.com. too!


I disagree. Just because a Christian writes something doesn't make it factually supported. I prefer to look at Scripture and factual information, and form my own opinion based on that.

quote:

It is a common theory among Christians in general that the peace symbol is anti-Christian or of at least questionable origin. Therefore, I do not think anyone in a place of leadership or who stands up as a representative of Christianity (who is aware of that fact) should wear one.


I can see wanting to avoid having people misconstrue a symbol, however I'm still uncomfortable with the idea that a Christian's actions should be ruled by the personal opinions/convictions or misinformation of others.

quote:

That said, not being aware is not an excuse. They should most definitely do their homework before they wear any sort of symbol because they are in the public eye.


Perhaps she is aware, and believes the semaphore origin of the symbol and is sympathetic with the nuclear disarmament movement or other peace movements that have used the symbol.

quote:

..just because a stylist gives a Christian entertainer something she/he thinks is fashionable or cool to wear doesn't mean she has to wear it.


And she doesn't have to not wear it just because some people choose to believe it has pagan origins. If we stop doing anything that might offend someone somewhere we might as well lock ourselves in our homes and never come out, LOL!

I wish the OP had asked the wearer about the symbol. It would have been interesting to see what she knew about its history, and why she wore it.



Child4Jesus -> RE: She wore what? Opinions on those in leadership positions. (9/25/2008 2:26:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kat_D

^^^ Well, one could say those Christian sites may be more relevant to a Christian forum than About.com. too!

It is a common theory among Christians in general that the peace symbol is anti-Christian or of at least questionable origin. Therefore, I do not think anyone in a place of leadership or who stands up as a representative of Christianity (who is aware of that fact) should wear one. That said, not being aware is not an excuse. They should most definitely do their homework before they wear any sort of symbol because they are in the public eye...just because a stylist gives a Christian entertainer something she/he thinks is fashionable or cool to wear doesn't mean she has to wear it.


I will be a Christian for 15 years next Feb and I have only recently heard this. I mean less than a year ago. And the Christian circles I run in so to speak I have never heard such a thing. I go to three different churches and never heard this. So it isn't as common as you think.



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