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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/23/2008 7:04:35 AM
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Birdiecat
Posts: 51
Joined: 5/2/2008
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Joe Biden's statement about Obama being tested within 6 months of being elected causing a worldwide crises. Could this be Ezekiel's war? That's what I'm thinking ... will Israel be attacked to see if Obama will defend her?
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Come, Lord Jesus!
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/23/2008 10:07:51 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 443
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, A_Name_Written and bob97!
quote:
ORIGINAL: A_Name_Written
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi Name_Written...
Are you relating to the Gog/Magog war of Eze 38/39? If so when do you see it occurring and do you consider Gog as being the Antichrist?
Hi bob97...
I am; I believe it will occur much sooner than everyone thinks; there are many antichrists, all who say Christ has not come in the flesh are antichrist, having the spirit of antichrist, which has been with us now 2000 years.
Y'know, I've heard that the Gog of Magog war was a part of the 7-year Tribulation period all my life, but when I read Revelation, I'm not so sure. Yochanan does not put it in that order:
Rev 20:7-11
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
KJV
How is it that we think it will be BEFORE the thousand years?
Retrobyter
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/23/2008 11:55:34 AM
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A_Name_Written
Posts: 47
Joined: 4/3/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, A_Name_Written and bob97!
quote:
ORIGINAL: A_Name_Written
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi Name_Written...
Are you relating to the Gog/Magog war of Eze 38/39? If so when do you see it occurring and do you consider Gog as being the Antichrist?
Hi bob97...
I am; I believe it will occur much sooner than everyone thinks; there are many antichrists, all who say Christ has not come in the flesh are antichrist, having the spirit of antichrist, which has been with us now 2000 years.
Y'know, I've heard that the Gog of Magog war was a part of the 7-year Tribulation period all my life, but when I read Revelation, I'm not so sure. Yochanan does not put it in that order:
Rev 20:7-11
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
KJV
How is it that we think it will be BEFORE the thousand years?
Retrobyter
Knowing what Peter says about a 1000 years being as 1 day, and knowing that the book of Revelation is highly symbolic (calling upon the symbols spread throughout the entire bible), how can ANYONE know for certain that the 1000 years mentioned is not just 1 day ? ? ?
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/26/2008 12:20:08 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 443
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: A_Name_Written
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, A_Name_Written and bob97!
quote:
ORIGINAL: A_Name_Written
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi Name_Written...
Are you relating to the Gog/Magog war of Eze 38/39? If so when do you see it occurring and do you consider Gog as being the Antichrist?
Hi bob97...
I am; I believe it will occur much sooner than everyone thinks; there are many antichrists, all who say Christ has not come in the flesh are antichrist, having the spirit of antichrist, which has been with us now 2000 years.
Y'know, I've heard that the Gog of Magog war was a part of the 7-year Tribulation period all my life, but when I read Revelation, I'm not so sure. Yochanan does not put it in that order:
Rev 20:7-11
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
KJV
How is it that we think it will be BEFORE the thousand years?
Retrobyter
Knowing what Peter says about a 1000 years being as 1 day, and knowing that the book of Revelation is highly symbolic (calling upon the symbols spread throughout the entire bible), how can ANYONE know for certain that the 1000 years mentioned is not just 1 day ? ? ?
Shalom, A_Name_Written.
I would simply ask in return, "How can ANYONE think that Yeshua` and those who reign with Him will only reign for a day?! How can ANYONE think that haSatan would only be incarcerated for 1 day?!" No, a thousand years makes better sense. Furthermore, one may call a thousand years of light with no night, because of God's glory, a single day and it still be as long as a thousand years!
One more thing: Revelation is NOT as symbolic as everyone thinks and teaches. There are clear symbols, but there are some things that merely SEEM like symbols but are literal events that some people interpret as symbols because they simply can't see how they could be literal.
Retrobyter
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/26/2008 4:03:42 AM
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A_Name_Written
Posts: 47
Joined: 4/3/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
quote:
ORIGINAL: A_Name_Written
Knowing what Peter says about a 1000 years being as 1 day, and knowing that the book of Revelation is highly symbolic (calling upon the symbols spread throughout the entire bible), how can ANYONE know for certain that the 1000 years mentioned is not just 1 day ? ? ?
Shalom, A_Name_Written.
I would simply ask in return, "How can ANYONE think that Yeshua` and those who reign with Him will only reign for a day?! How can ANYONE think that haSatan would only be incarcerated for 1 day?!" No, a thousand years makes better sense. Furthermore, one may call a thousand years of light with no night, because of God's glory, a single day and it still be as long as a thousand years!
One more thing: Revelation is NOT as symbolic as everyone thinks and teaches. There are clear symbols, but there are some things that merely SEEM like symbols but are literal events that some people interpret as symbols because they simply can't see how they could be literal.
Retrobyter
Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
When the world government is finally handed to the Messiah, it will neither be for 1 day, nor for 1000 years; it will be forever. Since Revelation can't contradict Isaiah, the reign during the "1000 year" period does not end at the end of the period, so your question "How can ANYONE think that Yeshua and those who reign with Him will only reign for a day?!" can be answered simply "How can ANYONE think that Yeshua and those who reign with Him will only reign for a 1000 years?!". Truth be told my friend, BOTH questions are equally foolish, for Isaiah tells us his reign NEVER ends! Then, for your next question, "How can ANYONE think that haSatan would only be incarcerated for 1 day?!" my answer again is simple, "not knowing the mind of God, how can any man say whether or not God would consider "Satan's" incarceration for just 1 day, or just 1 minute, or just 1 second, or just 1 microsecond, or maybe 1000 years, or maybe 1000 trillion millenia?!"
Ok, so now I'll go your route, and try to apply logic to this "1000 year period". During that period, will people continue having children, if not, will their life spans be increased so that the wicked, non-deserving evil-doers that remain get to live a full 1000 years, and is that scripturally supported? If however reproduction does continue while the same wicked, non-deserving evil-doers that remain get to live normal lifespans as they should, after 1000 years, a population of less than 1 billion (after perhaps 6 billion are killed by the boogeyman) will still yield over 500 trillion; the earth will have ceased to be able to support the human population LONG before the 1000 year period would be over.
Lastly, we all recognize that the Book of Revelation contains many symbols. That presents a HUGE dilema! Consider, we are TOLD by Christ to observe, to keep, to WATCH FOR, the things which are mentioned in the book, YET, you could be the absolute most spirit filled person on earth, and have a paper with the following 2 column headings: "SYMBOLS", and "LITERAL". Under "SYMBOLS" you'll no doubt have, "7 HEADED DRAGON", "7 HEADED SCARLET COLORED BEAST", "HARLOT RIDING SCARLET COLORED BEAST", "WOMAN WITH CROWN OF 12 STARS, CLOTHED WITH THE SUN, MOON UNDER HER FEET", etc. Then under "LITERAL" you'll have several items, one of which is "1000 YEAR REIGN". Now, what would you want to bet that the second most spirit filled person on earth will NOT have the same list as yours, nor will the 3rd most, 4th most, etc. How do we resolve such a problem; short of asking Christ to come sit down with us in our living room to explain what belongs in what column, we may never know for sure WHAT TO OBSERVE, TO KEEP, TO WATCH FOR. How do we solve this potentially fatal problem (I say fatal because there is ALWAYS the possibily that watching for the WRONG sign can get you LOST, at least CHRIST alludes to this in Rev 3:3)
So here's a proposal I would make to the absolute most spiritual, the second most spiritual, third most, etc: How about, if we FIND in the other books of the bible, a non-literal meaning for ANYYTHING we find in the Book of Revelation, WE ALLOW FOR THE POSSIBILITY THAT THE NON-LITERAL MEANING FOUND IN THE OTHER BOOK MAY BE WHAT THE BOOK OF REVELATION IS ALLUDING TO! At the very least, that would give us, POSITIVELY, those things which MUST BE TAKEN LITERALLY IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION; for if NO non-literal meaning is found elsewhere, then we know for sure that there is nothing else we can replace such an item with, and it can therefore be taken only one way, literally.
Here's how that excercise works:
term: WOMAN WITH 12 CROWNS, CLOTHED WITH THE SUN, MOON UNDER HER FEET
scan other books for possible non-literal interpration . . . ...
found: Genesis 37:9-11 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.
Interpration, in part, of Rev 12: WOMAN WITH 12 CROWNS, CLOTHED WITH THE SUN, MOON UNDER HER FEET may be the 12 Tribes of Israel.
Now, we go down the list, WITH EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION. We find that beasts are kingdoms, horns are kings, harlots are cities, and lastly, we find that "1000 years" JUST MIGHT BE "1 DAY". Short of Christ sitting down in our living room to say otherwise, I CANNOT SAY YOU ARE WRONG, AND YOU CANNOT SAY THAT I AM. We can argue all day long if we want, but neither will abandon our position based on the other's logic. In closing, I'll agree to disagree.
One final question you may want to consider: Do YOU think the devil is a 7 headed dragon with 10 horns?
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/28/2008 1:19:36 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 443
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, A_Name_Written.
quote:
ORIGINAL: A_Name_Written
Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
When the world government is finally handed to the Messiah, it will neither be for 1 day, nor for 1000 years; it will be forever. Since Revelation can't contradict Isaiah, the reign during the "1000 year" period does not end at the end of the period, so your question "How can ANYONE think that Yeshua and those who reign with Him will only reign for a day?!" can be answered simply "How can ANYONE think that Yeshua and those who reign with Him will only reign for a 1000 years?!". Truth be told my friend, BOTH questions are equally foolish, for Isaiah tells us his reign NEVER ends! Then, for your next question, "How can ANYONE think that haSatan would only be incarcerated for 1 day?!" my answer again is simple, "not knowing the mind of God, how can any man say whether or not God would consider "Satan's" incarceration for just 1 day, or just 1 minute, or just 1 second, or just 1 microsecond, or maybe 1000 years, or maybe 1000 trillion millenia?!"
Ok, so now I'll go your route, and try to apply logic to this "1000 year period". During that period, will people continue having children, if not, will their life spans be increased so that the wicked, non-deserving evil-doers that remain get to live a full 1000 years, and is that scripturally supported? If however reproduction does continue while the same wicked, non-deserving evil-doers that remain get to live normal lifespans as they should, after 1000 years, a population of less than 1 billion (after perhaps 6 billion are killed by the boogeyman) will still yield over 500 trillion; the earth will have ceased to be able to support the human population LONG before the 1000 year period would be over.
Lastly, we all recognize that the Book of Revelation contains many symbols. That presents a HUGE dilema! Consider, we are TOLD by Christ to observe, to keep, to WATCH FOR, the things which are mentioned in the book, YET, you could be the absolute most spirit filled person on earth, and have a paper with the following 2 column headings: "SYMBOLS", and "LITERAL". Under "SYMBOLS" you'll no doubt have, "7 HEADED DRAGON", "7 HEADED SCARLET COLORED BEAST", "HARLOT RIDING SCARLET COLORED BEAST", "WOMAN WITH CROWN OF 12 STARS, CLOTHED WITH THE SUN, MOON UNDER HER FEET", etc. Then under "LITERAL" you'll have several items, one of which is "1000 YEAR REIGN". Now, what would you want to bet that the second most spirit filled person on earth will NOT have the same list as yours, nor will the 3rd most, 4th most, etc. How do we resolve such a problem; short of asking Christ to come sit down with us in our living room to explain what belongs in what column, we may never know for sure WHAT TO OBSERVE, TO KEEP, TO WATCH FOR. How do we solve this potentially fatal problem (I say fatal because there is ALWAYS the possibily that watching for the WRONG sign can get you LOST, at least CHRIST alludes to this in Rev 3:3)
So here's a proposal I would make to the absolute most spiritual, the second most spiritual, third most, etc: How about, if we FIND in the other books of the bible, a non-literal meaning for ANYYTHING we find in the Book of Revelation, WE ALLOW FOR THE POSSIBILITY THAT THE NON-LITERAL MEANING FOUND IN THE OTHER BOOK MAY BE WHAT THE BOOK OF REVELATION IS ALLUDING TO! At the very least, that would give us, POSITIVELY, those things which MUST BE TAKEN LITERALLY IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION; for if NO non-literal meaning is found elsewhere, then we know for sure that there is nothing else we can replace such an item with, and it can therefore be taken only one way, literally.
Here's how that excercise works:
term: WOMAN WITH 12 CROWNS, CLOTHED WITH THE SUN, MOON UNDER HER FEET
scan other books for possible non-literal interpration . . . ...
found: Genesis 37:9-11 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.
Interpration, in part, of Rev 12: WOMAN WITH 12 CROWNS, CLOTHED WITH THE SUN, MOON UNDER HER FEET may be the 12 Tribes of Israel.
Now, we go down the list, WITH EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION. We find that beasts are kingdoms, horns are kings, harlots are cities, and lastly, we find that "1000 years" JUST MIGHT BE "1 DAY". Short of Christ sitting down in our living room to say otherwise, I CANNOT SAY YOU ARE WRONG, AND YOU CANNOT SAY THAT I AM. We can argue all day long if we want, but neither will abandon our position based on the other's logic. In closing, I'll agree to disagree.
One final question you may want to consider: Do YOU think the devil is a 7 headed dragon with 10 horns?
First, no argument about the eternal reign of Yeshua` and His Father. Luke 1:30-33 is pretty clear:
Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV
Second, just because Yeshua` will reign eternally over Yisra'el and His Father will reign eternally over the earth, does NOT mean that the 1000 years aren't 1000 years! After all, the 1000 years are not about how long Yeshua` or YHVH reigns! It's about how long haSatan is locked up!
Third, YES, people will continue to have children through that 1000-year period, rightly called a "millennium" (NOT rightly called "the millennial reign")! Yesha`yahu (Isaiah) tells us that information in his prophecy:
Isa 61:8-9
8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.
9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.
KJV
Isa 65:19-20
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
KJV
Isa 11:1-9
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
KJV
Oh, and I've been to the other thread about your experiment on finding out just what about Revelation should be taken literally, and I've gotta tell ya: The reason I have not yet contributed is because, after I read and re-read your proposal, I realized that that is BACKWARD from the way I look at Scripture. I START with the premise that what I am reading should be taken literally. THEN, if it does not make sense, I will look for some clue about its allegorical interpretation (please don't call it a "spiritual" interpretation; an ALLEGORICAL interpretation is no more elevated than is the literal interpretation). For instance, you may FOREVER be convinced that Rev. 9:1-12 is allegorical if you never even consider that it might be possible to interpret the passage literally! DON'T LIMIT YOURSELF!
Finally, you asked, "Do YOU think the devil is a 7 headed dragon with 10 horns?" Why can't you just let a metaphor be interpreted grammatically? You should realize that Yochanan has spelled out EXACTLY what the 7 heads and the 10 horns represent:
Rev 17:9-14
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
KJV
The literal method is also known as the grammatical/historical method of interpretation. Let the Scriptures speak NATURALLY and you won't have to go looking for so many symbols.
Retrobyter
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RE: is the stage being set for confrontation? - 10/29/2008 5:44:54 AM
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jerowhy
Posts: 71
Joined: 10/14/2008
Status: offline
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The Dragon is Gog and Magog is the prostitute as given in revelation. The culminating events whereby the spirit of Gog becomes manifest as the false prophet leader who subdues 3 of the 10 leaders to take his place among the 7 remaining making 8 worldwide leaders who trample Israel for 42 months forcing all nations to take the mark of the number of the name of the false prophet until he sits in the temple holy place proclaiming himself greater than God.
The feast of Armageddon has been continuing for 2000 years and approximately 6000 years before that following the flood whereby there is a spiritual war between The Angels and the servant Spirits of flames of fire and the fallen powers of darkness in the heavenly realms. The unclean birds feed on the flesh of all peoples as written for babylon is found to be full of all kinds of unclean and detestable spirits who cause blindness in the unbelieving peoples so that cannot turn and be healed as written in the Prophets. They that do not repent of their evil deeds are storing up death and Judgment for themselves as The Apostle instructed us. The four rivers are written in Genesis as the garden of eden fountains by which all the empires on the earth are planted as written in the Prophets regarding Egypt and Ninevah and Tyre and Sidon and Assyria and Babylon and Persia and Media and Greece (Selucid) and Rome and Holy Roman and Byzantine and Ottoman and dashed to pieces European along the tigris (tiger) and Euphrates (Europeanesque). When the time comes for the last river given in Prophetic Scripture known as the Euphrates time period in accordance with the fourth creature known as the eagle (a people without vision will perish) to dry up (when the angels that holds back the four corner winds also known as the restrainer or the One who holds back the culmination coming of the false prophet) the kings of the east (they are those that are written as the 10 horns from among all of the nations found on earth of the beast from the sea driven by the fallen powers of the devils kingdom but motivated by God as written regarding how He placed it into their hearts to accomplish His Sovereign Will) are written to have a hook placed in them by the Almighty to show Himself Holy as Testimony to all nations on earth.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi Name_Written...
Are you relating to the Gog/Magog war of Eze 38/39? If so when do you see it occurring and do you consider Gog as being the Antichrist?
Bob
< Message edited by jerowhy -- 10/29/2008 6:52:57 AM >
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