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Church leaders and family "problems"
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| Yes, they would be allowed to remain in a position of leadership. |
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Total Votes : 19
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(last vote on : 11/14/2008 1:56:58 PM)
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 1:17:54 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3467
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
That's my leaning as well, but I have to confess to not having really considered this exact scenario before. I think I would want some background on this to determine a couple of interpretive points. For example, when Paul gives his lists like this are they intended to be exhaustive and complete? Are they intended to be prescriptive in a detailed jot-by-jot, tittle-by-tittle check the box sort of way or descriptive in the sense of an observed and established general pattern? There's a theoretical interpretive question there that involves how people like Paul used this type of language and how such language was intended to be understood. At this point, without an answer to that question I think you could legitimately go either way.
I have a certain leaning here, but nothing that I would advocate yet as my definitive answer without a lot more consideration. So far, I think there's been some decent thought expressed here. I'd be unwilling to call anyone's answer on this wrong at this point.
Over all I'd say you have a well balanced view on this thread.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 2:15:54 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4661
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
biblical interpretation and interpreting a biblical writer in the context of all the other things he's written and other passages elsewhere.
All Scripture should be considered within the context of the whole of Scripture. Scripture enlightens Scripture. It is a solid approach to systematic study.
So yes, I do this regularly.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 2:24:35 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LapidothOver all I'd say you have a well balanced view on this thread.
I've never been accused of being well-balanced before. Thanks.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 2:25:37 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2863
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
biblical interpretation and interpreting a biblical writer in the context of all the other things he's written and other passages elsewhere.
All Scripture should be considered within the context of the whole of Scripture. Scripture enlightens Scripture. It is a solid approach to systematic study.
So yes, I do this regularly.
I have no doubt. Would trust you implicitly to do just that.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 2:55:27 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5771
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From: Oklahoma
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Not wanting to derail the thread, but his kinda sora goes along with the other.
The following verse in probably the second most commonly denied by Chrches for their leaders;
1 Ti 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Many folks see it as a badge of honor to have the "Common unsaved folk" upset with the leaders of the Chruch (Pastor), but Scripture says just the opposite.
I think the reasoning behind doing this is to quell "Well what's so special aout those Christians; his daughter got pregnant also", or the altime favorite espression, "Preachers never pay thier bills".
As Christians we are called out to be different from the world; and if we are not; then their will be no drawing of the lost; for we all look the same.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 3:32:27 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3467
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
As Christians we are called out to be different from the world; and if we are not; then their will be no drawing of the lost; for we all look the same.
Boy, being a man of your word, paying your bills.
I couldn't agree more. That man will stand out in the crowd these days.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/26/2008 4:00:49 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5771
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
As Christians we are called out to be different from the world; and if we are not; then their will be no drawing of the lost; for we all look the same.
Boy, being a man of your word, paying your bills.
I couldn't agree more. That man will stand out in the crowd these days.
I think standing out in the "World' was the idea behind God inserting these little jewels into his owners manual.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/27/2008 10:19:24 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2350
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In going with the OP I've always had the problem that a girl being pregnant would automatically squelch a leader. Being pregnant isn't the sin. I've heard of countless controversies that involved a girl getting pregnant but never not even one time have I ever once heard of a leader being asked to step down because of a son committing sexual sin. There are more sexually active boys then there are girls so to me using a pregnant daughter as the sole plumb line for judging someone's children doesn't sound right to me especially when there are no fingers and no condemnation for the boys.
Children will sin, teen agers will (often but not always) have sex, drink, experiment etc. They will also use bad words, cheat on tests, etc. I agree more with Laura in that I am more interested in the big picture than in just hearing about 1 escapade. In fairness though and I remember this growing up there are an awful lot of really stupid parents when it comes to this type of thing and an awful lot that just don't care or they don't care so they act stupid so they can pretend they don't condone it. The one thing that always jumped out at me when I read Paul's description of an overseer is that having a well behaved, well managed family doesn't start just overnight. It is indicative of a person's character over time.
Another thing that has always bothered me is how many christians just seem to be looking for a reason to condemn there pastor with this scripture. The purpose of taking corrective action against a leader isn't to condemn them it is to give them an oppourtunity for restoration. This is why I appreciate RC for taking the time to share this with us:
quote:
I know that when my daughter committed sexual sin ang found herself pregnant that my removing myself from the ministry until there was proof positive that I had regained control of my family; was very beneficial for the Church, my daughter, my entire family, and for me. I mean afrter all it was God's way for me to do that so it had to be beneficial for all;
If I may ask RC, at what point did you know and your church know it was time for you to come back? This is what correction of leadership should be about- restoration. You did the right thing, you were given a chance to do the right thing and most importantly you chose to do the right thing and it had a positive impact on you and your family.
Anyway to go back to the OP at my current church this most likely wouldn't be a problem though I'm not aware of anything that would be a problem elsewhere. At my previous church years ago we didn't believe that kids just at one certain day, automatically became "accountable" and this would let the leader off the hook. There were a couple of cases that would make my ears perk up but when they start hitting 16 or 17 it was believed one had to start loosening the reigns and let go anyway. So previously it could have in many places but didn't.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/27/2008 10:54:50 AM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 467
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: offline
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rlj,
I'm not sure anyone was saying her being pregnant is the problem. I myself spoke of the sex out of wedlock. The same should and would apply if it was a son. If he got a girl pregnant and was on drugs. I agree that 1 escapade you have to look at the big picture.
I'm not sure of the circles you run in but I have never come across people looking for a reason to condemn the pastor with scripture. Restoration is definitely the key.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/27/2008 11:45:58 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2350
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I'm not sure of the circles you run in but I have never come across people looking for a reason to condemn the pastor with scripture. Restoration is definitely the key.
In all honesty you have over 350 posts on Crosswalk and have never seen anyone here look to condemn a pastor with scripture? ; )
Let me pose a question then. Since in the opinion of many and I have heard of this a pregnant daughter is considered reason enough for someone to be removed or temporarily removed from leadership how come I have never heard of this happening because of a boy? The sin isn't that the girl got pregnant, the sin is fornication. Whether or not the boy makes a girl pregnant has no bearing on the fact that the sin was fornication. A girl can't sweep a pregnancy under the proverbial rug however yet in the case of the boy that can be swept under unless there is a pregnancy that goes to term or something else that gets leaked out.
< Message edited by rlj -- 9/27/2008 11:54:14 AM >
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/27/2008 12:05:10 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 467
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
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quote:
I'm not sure of the circles you run in but I have never come across people looking for a reason to condemn the pastor with scripture. Restoration is definitely the key.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
In all honesty you have over 350 posts on Crosswalk and have never seen anyone here look to condemn a pastor with scripture? ; )
Let me pose a question then. Since in the opinion of many and I have heard of this a pregnant daughter is considered reason enough for someone to be removed or temporarily removed from leadership how come I have never heard of this happening because of a boy? The sin isn't that the girl got pregnant, the sin is fornication. Whether or not the boy makes a girl pregnant has no bearing on the fact that the sin was fornication. A girl can't sweep a pregnancy under the proverbial rug however yet in the case of the boy that can be swept under unless there is a pregnancy that goes to term or something else that gets leaked out.
It depends on what you mean by condemn. If a pastor is clearly twisting scripture, making false prophesies, etc., and you say this person is in the wrong that is not condemning. If a pastor commits adultery and you say he is going to hell, that would be condemning. However if you ask him to step down for a period that is not condemning.
I would assume no one here is saying the pregnancy is the problem. The fact that she fornicated and is on drugs is the problem. The fact of the matter is the OP didn't ask about a boy. You already know what I think should be done by my above post. Again I never got the idea that anyone was saying her being pregnant is the sin.
Now any pastor that would hide the fact that his son has sinned in this way (or any major way) and is trying to hide away his pregnant girlfriend is wrong.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/27/2008 12:53:55 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5771
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
I'm not sure of the circles you run in but I have never come across people looking for a reason to condemn the pastor with scripture. Restoration is definitely the key.
In all honesty you have over 350 posts on Crosswalk and have never seen anyone here look to condemn a pastor with scripture? ; )
Let me pose a question then. Since in the opinion of many and I have heard of this a pregnant daughter is considered reason enough for someone to be removed or temporarily removed from leadership how come I have never heard of this happening because of a boy? The sin isn't that the girl got pregnant, the sin is fornication. Whether or not the boy makes a girl pregnant has no bearing on the fact that the sin was fornication. A girl can't sweep a pregnancy under the proverbial rug however yet in the case of the boy that can be swept under unless there is a pregnancy that goes to term or something else that gets leaked out.
You just haven't been around the Churches that use Scripture as a guideline in this area.
Getting pregnant is not the sin; fornication is.
I removed an Elder a few years ago who was caught in sexual sin and drug use, and had been there for a long enough period for the Elder to have corrected it. Over the years I have done this more than once.
We have also removed some attenders for living a life contrary to Scripture or for being "Heretics" (divisive).
My promise to my congregations is that trouble makers will repent or will be gone (just as Scripture says), and the congregation if fully behind that.
We must be obedient to Scripture; for if we are not then we are obedinet to satan.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/27/2008 1:06:22 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 467
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: offline
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rcjames,
You seem to be so right on. Good job.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/27/2008 2:57:17 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2350
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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I agree with you totally RC. On the removing from fellowship have seen it done 3 times but you have at an absolute minimum 3 more decades of faithful service than I.
What does make my ears perk up though is how quickly sometimes people look at a Pastor's kid and want to condemn the Pastor because the kid <fill in the blank>. Years ago I used to do some volunteer work with a crisis pregnancy center and we would go around talking about abstinence in schools and churches. I read alot of (and got to hear him speak several times) of Josh McDowell, I was into Dobson, and several others. A recurring theme from that was the pressure that some of the girls who were pastor's children were put under in the event that they did screw up (no pun intended) and get pregnant. There was absolutely no pressure that I ever read about a son having to endure unless there was some scandal involved. (Like sleeping with some elder's daughter) That kind of weight being put on a kid is awful heavy and it is a weight I am only aware of the girls enduring not the boys.
More later.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/29/2008 1:25:53 PM
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yustme
Posts: 361
Joined: 5/2/2007
Status: offline
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Let he without sin cast the first stone.
My father was a minister,he's in Heaven now.Us five kids are far from perfect.Many times my dad was tempted to step down and leave the ministry but God wouldn't let him.We weren't hellians,but we did cause him him many tears.No leader can force his children into obedience.Just as we obey God by choice,children obey their parents by choice.If the Pastor falls into sin and refuses to repent then he should step down.
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/29/2008 1:56:17 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3037
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Yustme
Let he without sin cast the first stone.
So, since when Jesus said this, He was talking to Pharisees who claimed they were without sin and in actuality were guilty of the very sin they were accusing the adulterous woman of committing, how does that apply here?
Are you saying we who believe the Scriptures concerning this issue are Pharisees?
Are you saying we claim to be without sin?
Please tell me how you can use that Scripture in context here.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/29/2008 3:22:53 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5771
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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The greatest error in the "Modern Churches" is ignoring sin; sine in the leadership (not holding them accountable to Biblical standards) Sin in the congregation (It's OK everyone does it and God's Grace covers any little ole thing you might do that is wrong).
That is all BLAXPHEMy; sin is sin and God cannot stand it or put up with it as Jesus so aptly put it;
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
God will not put up with sin in any way, form, or fashion.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 10/22/2008 10:39:24 PM
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buckifn
Posts: 1863
Joined: 5/23/2006
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If the daughter is under the age of 18 and still lives at home then yes the pastor or leader needs to step down.
If the daughter is over 18 then no...we can't control our kids when they are adults.
On the matter of foster children out of control I am very familiar with that topic and believe it would be in both the best interest of the child and the foster parent if the leader stepped down to devote more time to nurturing the child and meeting their needs which can be overwhelming.
I don't think leaving ministry altogether is necessary, but perhaps a sabbatical of some sort?
As children grow older and work through issues in family/personal counseling and have resources available to help them they often adapt well and the pastor may once again have more free time to serve and will have a greater testimony of leading in the home.
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