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[Poll]
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Church leaders and family "problems"
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| Yes, they would be allowed to remain in a position of leadership. |
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| No, they would be asked to step down. |
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Total Votes : 19
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(last vote on : 11/14/2008 1:56:58 PM)
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 11:21:04 AM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 467
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
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emerging,
It is not legalistic to follow scripture.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 11:25:08 AM
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crankius
Posts: 4661
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
crankius-
of course the original languages are important, which is why I spent 3 years studying Greek.
Good. Then you understand why it is important to study Titus 1:6.
What is your opinion of the translation of Titus 1:6?
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 11:26:14 AM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 467
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From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
To maybe throw in a few more kinks into the works. . .
Does a child rebelling automatically equate a father not able to manage? Can one do everything right, and still have a rebellious child? Are there situations that are simply out of one's hands?
Additionally, at what age do these qualifications end? When the child is . . . 16? 18? 21? 40? If my pastors full-grown child commits adultery, is my pastor responsible? Should he step down?
How we define family and children/adulthood I'm sure is different now than it was then. . . what is the context of the verse in question?
See the fact of the matter is it doesn't say if you do everything right and your kid still rebels, you can be an elder.
If it's an adult living away oh his/her own that is a different thing from children living at home.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 11:29:33 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2478
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That's fine.
Could someone answer the rest of my questions?
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 11:29:37 AM
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miasma
Posts: 4127
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quote:
Why do you only ask about a teenage daughter who is pregnant?
I would assume because that is the frame of reference given in the OP.
I orginally merely wanted the data, to contribute to a discussion about the hypocrisy of evangelicals, in being so gung-ho about Sarah Palin ("wouldn't she be not allowed to have a position of authority in a church with her family situation?").
Thank you for all your feedback.
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 11:45:54 AM
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crankius
Posts: 4661
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You are correct, Miasma. She would not be qualified to be an elder. She doesn't fit the qualifications.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 11:47:13 AM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 467
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From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
To maybe throw in a few more kinks into the works. . .
Does a child rebelling automatically equate a father not able to manage? Can one do everything right, and still have a rebellious child? Are there situations that are simply out of one's hands?
Additionally, at what age do these qualifications end? When the child is . . . 16? 18? 21? 40? If my pastors full-grown child commits adultery, is my pastor responsible? Should he step down?
How we define family and children/adulthood I'm sure is different now than it was then. . . what is the context of the verse in question?
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
That's fine.
Could someone answer the rest of my questions?
Alright. I will take a go.
Does a child rebelling automatically equate a father not able to manage?
Rebelling assumes a pattern not a one time thing.
Can one do everything right and still have a rebellious child?
Yes. Such a one doesn't qualify to be an elder or deacon.
Are there situations that are simply out of one's hands?
Yes. Adult children living outside of the home.
If my pastors full-grown child commits adultery, is my pastor responsible? Should he step down?
No. The pastor is not responsible for his child's sin. One adult trying to get to control another adult is virtually impossible. However if you are in your fathers home you have respect. The pastor should step down if the adult in question lives at home.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 11:54:42 AM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3037
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
That's fine.
Could someone answer the rest of my questions?
Well, here is what some people, much wiser than me, say:
John Gill
"One that ruleth well his own house…His family, wife, children, and servants; and is not to be understood of his body, and of keeping of that under, and of preserving it chaste and temperate, as appears from what follows: having his children in subjection with all gravity;keeping a good decorum in his family; obliging his children to observe his orders, and especially the rules of God's word."
Matthew Henry
13. "He must be one who keeps his family in good order: That rules well his own house, that he may set a good example to other masters of families to do so too, and that he may thereby give a proof of his ability to take care of the church of God: For, if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God. Observe, The families of ministers ought to be examples of good to all others families. Ministers must have their children in subjection; then it is the duty of ministers’ children to submit to the instructions that are given them.— With all gravity. The best way to keep inferiors in subjection, is to be grave with them. Not having his children in subjection with all austerity, but with all gravity".
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 12:52:55 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3467
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: miasma
quote:
Why do you only ask about a teenage daughter who is pregnant?
I would assume because that is the frame of reference given in the OP.
I orginally merely wanted the data, to contribute to a discussion about the hypocrisy of evangelicals, in being so gung-ho about Sarah Palin ("wouldn't she be not allowed to have a position of authority in a church with her family situation?").
Thank you for all your feedback.
This puts a whole new light on the matter.
There was an agenda in the post. ROFL.
If this is true, why do you keep voting the reprobates back
into office cycle after cycle? lol.
The economic crisis is going to be overseen by those who caused it.
But we continue to vote them in. Disregarding right and wrong.
We have to keep our party in office. ho-ho-ho
Again, if we hold to this reasoning, all pulpits must be vacated.
There is only one real qualification.
The "call" of God to do what we do.
We do have guidelines to help us.
Each infraction must be judged on a individual basis.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 1:04:31 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3467
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
An elder is not a Vice President, and a Vice President is not an elder.
Here we go with our definitions again.
If they aren't an elder of a nation, what are they?
legalism = (from Power New Testament dict.) Man's way of defining Scripture.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 1:05:49 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2478
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I hope I didn't sound too snooty. I am not disagreeing with ya'll. I just had some additional questions.
At what point is the parent no longer responsible? In Jewish culture, I believe the child was considered an adult at 13? Would this be the context of this verse, then?
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 1:07:15 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4661
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There is a clear and obvious distinction between an elder (as defined in Scripture for the leadership of the church), and worldly leaders (who are not defined in Scripture for the leadership of the church).
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 1:08:40 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4661
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quote:
At what point is the parent no longer responsible? In Jewish culture, I believe the child was considered an adult at 13? Would this be the context of this verse, then?
If they children are part of his household, then he is responsible for them. When the children leave the household and move on as adults with their lives, they are no longer part of their father's household, but are individual adults and responsible for their own behavior.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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[Deleted] - 9/25/2008 1:09:29 PM
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Deleted User
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 1:12:47 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3467
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
I hope I didn't sound too snooty. I am not disagreeing with ya'll. I just had some additional questions.
At what point is the parent no longer responsible? In Jewish culture, I believe the child was considered an adult at 13? Would this be the context of this verse, then?
Glad you brought this up.
I was thinking along these lines but knew this is not known or understood.
A Jewish child has bar-mitsvah or bat-mitsvah (sp) at 12 or 13.
From that time they make their own decisions.
But they have to bring those decisions before a minyan.
That's a group of 10 family elders that weighs the pros and cons
of the (new adult). They are given the pros and cons of that decision.
Then they make their final decision upon the advice of the family council.
This process continues until the child reaches 30.
What Ephesians says comes to "full stature."
At that time they make their decisions on their own.
At that time they may or not become one of the minyan
of the family. Then they become a judge of what the 12-30 does.
Our view of Scripture is from a Greco-Roman viewpoint.
Our western life-style is styled by this. Our government
is patterned after the Greco-Roman standards.
Scripture is by Hebrew mindset.
What we take literally, many times are idioms.
Greek is a black and white way of thinking.
Hebrew paints a picture by their language. Not so black and white.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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[Deleted] - 9/25/2008 1:12:58 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/25/2008 1:15:17 PM
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 1:16:58 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3467
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
There is a clear and obvious distinction between an elder (as defined in Scripture for the leadership of the church), and worldly leaders (who are not defined in Scripture for the leadership of the church).
Governments are ordained of God.
So there's a different standard according to God?
No, man makes all the changes.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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[Deleted] - 9/25/2008 1:33:26 PM
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 1:43:46 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 467
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
At what point is the parent no longer responsible? In Jewish culture, I believe the child was considered an adult at 13? Would this be the context of this verse, then?
If they children are part of his household, then he is responsible for them. When the children leave the household and move on as adults with their lives, they are no longer part of their father's household, but are individual adults and responsible for their own behavior.
quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
crankius,
Is that how "households" operated in Paul's day? Do you know what a "household" was in Jewish and Greek culture?
You have a very modern and American view of household that it being interpolated into the text.
You enlighten us emerging.
I don't see how anyone would could not see how adults who move out, live on his/her own, taking care of his/her self, is no longer under dads rule.
BTW, you have yet to answer Titus 1:6
Titus 1:6 (New International Version)
6 An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.
Titus 1:6 (New American Standard Bible)
6 namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.
Titus 1:6 (New King James Version)
6 if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination.
Titus 1 (New King James Version)
5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you— 6 if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination. 7 For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, 8 but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.
The thing that people fail to see is that Paul lists what qualifies someone as an elder. If you don't qualify you can't be one. How your children behave is part of it. Plain and simple.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 1:46:40 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3467
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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This whole thread is irrelevant now that we
know the OP is about Sarah Palin. LOL.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 1:50:44 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
Good. Then you understand why it is important to study Titus 1:6.
What is your opinion of the translation of Titus 1:6?
If I may give my thought on these words which Paul writes. In today circle what I have seen that 98.9% fail in those requirements. A lot of good showing for the crowd, yet deep down inside failing miserable in all aspects of it. And it has nothing to do with the kids they raised.
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/25/2008 1:53:20 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 467
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: offline
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emerging,
Your line of argument is very annoying. When did I ever say, "If you don't agree with me you aren't following scripture."? This is something you do and it needs to stop. You assume people mean something and put words into there mouths. It has to stop.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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