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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 9/29/2008 11:21:27 PM
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ImSassy
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I have to agree with Karen.
That is exactly what is wrong in the church today. There is no accountability. Priorities are way out of line. I fully know that the gift and calling of God is without repentance, but that does not give anyone the right to be one thing in front of people and another behind closed doors. At some point, your character has to match the call of God and if not, you will topple.
The Lord said that if HE be liffted up, HE would draw all men. Not if the Pastor's wife enables the Pastor a little more and a little longer. In this case, she couldn't have supported him more. She just got tired of living a lie. Her focus had been too long on his ministry. She finally stood up and got her focus back on HIS ministry - Jesus Christ!
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 9/29/2008 11:24:12 PM
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Exsulence
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Karen: "So are you saying that if she would just show a bit more enthusiam and support then the abuse would stop?"
Exsulence: Yes. It probably would.
Karen: "Are you saying his actions are not really his responsibility but hers because she is just not supportive enough?"
Exsulence: No. You said that. I said that he's pretty much made it clear by his outbursts of anger that He has no relationship with the Lord, at present; but this is not to say that he hasn't at some time in his life, necessarily.
Karen: "So, it is all her fault? If that is what you are saying then it is one of the most blatant attempts to blame the victim I have seen in a long time. If you are saying it is her place to just try a little harder and support him more, then I am truly sick to my stomach."
Exsulence: Nope. YOU said that it was "all her fault." Right there, above this note. I did not say that at all.
What I said I made very clear: the fault lies with BOTH of them, Karen. But it sounds to me like you've been as brain-washed as most when it comes to these situations. Your attitude is not dissimilar to the tactic of 10,000 secular women's "support" groups (or "counselors") in the world today who victimize every woman whose husband gets angry with her (and might even, finally, explode) after years and years of her endless brow-beating, constant criticisms and vicious tongue-whippings that she meats out to the man she is supposed to respect. She gets away with it because HER form of verbal abuse is not against the law in this country. His reaction to it, however, always is. Obviously, there are exceptions: crazy goofballs out there, psychopaths who have no business being married to anyone.
I cannot believe, however, that this Christian preacher is one of them.
Until she gets off of her high horse, he is probably better off living on a corner of the roof, as the Word of God suggests, at Proverbs 21: 9, than to listen to the constant "dripping" of his wife. Unfortunately, however, children whom he probably loves just as much as she does are involved, and judges tend to grant custody to the whiners over the exploders, hands down.
Never heard of one, yet, who granted roof-living; and, frankly, it would be an embarrassment to the kids. Too bad!
Karen: "I don't mean to come at you or attack you with all of these questions..."
Exsulence: What a relief. Thanks for saying that, in the end.
_____________________________
"Ah, Lord God, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and Your outstretched arm. Nothing is too difficult for You! (Jer. 32: 17)"
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 9/30/2008 12:07:22 AM
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Hislittleone
Posts: 625
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quote:
Exsulence:
Until she gets off of her high horse, he is probably better off living on a corner of the roof, as the Word of God suggests, at Proverbs 21: 9, than to listen to the constant "dripping" of his wife. Unfortunately, however, children whom he probably loves just as much as she does are involved, and judges tend to grant custody to the whiners over the exploders, hands down.
This is being said about a woman who is married to an abusive man?!? A man who calls himself Christian and even dares to shepherd a flock but has no self-control and is prone to violent outbursts?
What was said by the op that makes you think the pastor's wife was a "whiner" or was constantly "dripping"???
< Message edited by Hislittleone -- 9/30/2008 1:52:02 AM >
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 9/30/2008 12:17:03 AM
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Focusing
Posts: 6006
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quote:
I cannot believe, however, that this Christian preacher is one of them.
Do you know him?
I have been through a very abusive marriage. Many people on the outside thought my ex was just Mr. Nice Guy. Those who had been through abusive relationships saw right through it. There was no mistaking "the look" in my eyes. I see it in other women's eyes. And every time I see it, a tremendous sorrow fills my heart. Sometimes tears form in my eyes right then and there. Sometimes I have to pick up and leave immediately because the emotions are so overwhelming.
This thread, and the concern ImSassy has expressed for her best friend/SIL has kept me praying for all the women in abusive marriages. Rather than bicker back and forth, perhaps we can lift this woman and her children and her husband and the parents and the rest of the family up in prayer, asking our Lord to surround them with His love. If all we do is argue with one another, what purpose are we serving? Whom are we helping? I'll tell you who - it is the prince of lies. And that makes me very angry.
ImSassy - I pray that you are doing well through all of this. My heart truly aches for you.
_____________________________
There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 9/30/2008 12:30:43 AM
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Hislittleone
Posts: 625
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quote:
Exsulence:
As for your SIL, she is commanded to forgive him, no matter how badly she feels she has been "hurt." Hasn't she heard that if she does not forgive your brother, God the Father in heaven WILL NOT forgive her for her many sins? Her bitterness, by the way, is symptom number one of the sin of unforgiveness. (Do a google on it; you'll see for yourself.) I know whereof I speak, incidentally; I'm just coming off a stretch of the consequences of that sin myself, by the way.
Good grief, what sort of lifestyle did she expect as a minister's wife? She should be as "wed" to the church as he is, shouldn't she, since she and her husband are "one" since the day they were married? If her support of HIS ministry were her focus numero uno, why, they would be be so happy together, they couldn't wait to get at it each day!
I just went back through the thread and read this post. The statement that is highlighted places all responsibility on the wife's shoulders. But earlier in your post you state that the husband needs deliverance. So which is it? The two statements seem contradictory. 
I am also curious to know how you know that this woman is bitter and unforgiving??? It hasn't been stated by the op so I'm not sure where you got that from? Perhaps you are assuming that since she is seeking divorce then it must mean she hasn't forgiven her husband and is bitter?
There is a huge difference between forgiving someone and allowing them to bring evil into your life through their continuous unrepentant sin (in this case a husband's anger problem etc.).
Also, why should she support him continuing in this ministry while he isn't managing his family well? That would be going against scripture. As a Christian she shouldn't go against what the scriptures teach us.
1 Timothy 3: 1 Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?)
This pastor has no business being in a position of leadership in the church at this time. He should step down from his position willingly. And his wife is right not to support him in his sin (i.e. supporting him in his ministry when he has no business being in the ministry right now).
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 9/30/2008 1:55:15 AM
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Hislittleone
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Imsassy, may God bless you for offering shelter to your SIL and her children. You are doing the right thing. I'm so sorry you are being hurt in the process. What your dad said was very hurtful but hopefully he said it out of anger and didn't really mean it. (((Imsassy)))
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 9/30/2008 6:08:54 AM
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hnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Exsulence
Dear ImSassy,
I don't mean to be a buttinski (this is my very first post on this forum), buttt... it sounds to me like your brother needs deliverence; not a divorce. His rage and anger are evidence of his spiritual immaturity due, no doubt, to his failure to seek the Lord daily, in prayer. But the poor fellow is by no means alone. Any one of us would be raging, too, under the circumstances, trying to manage a church in our own flesh, instead of in the power of the Lord.
As for your SIL, she is commanded to forgive him, no matter how badly she feels she has been "hurt." Hasn't she heard that if she does not forgive your brother, God the Father in heaven WILL NOT forgive her for her many sins? Her bitterness, by the way, is symptom number one of the sin of unforgiveness. (Do a google on it; you'll see for yourself.) I know whereof I speak, incidentally; I'm just coming off a stretch of the consequences of that sin myself, by the way.
I think you maybe placing the cart before the horse. They have now separated due to sinful behavior. We don't know if she has forgiven or not. We can't make that assumption. Leaving doesn't have to be out of bitterness, and since this process has just started we don't know WHERE it will go at this point. It could be said that he also should be humbling himself, and asking her forgiveness instead of encouraging the taking sides in this matter.
Good grief, what sort of lifestyle did she expect as a minister's wife? She should be as "wed" to the church as he is, shouldn't she, since she and her husband are "one" since the day they were married? If her support of HIS ministry were her focus numero uno, why, they would be be so happy together, they couldn't wait to get at it each day!
Once again you are missing a portion.
A minister should be stepping down from his position when his family is in trouble. They are his first ministry. Her/His numero uno stand should be focused on God - not his ministry. Their second focus should be on the spouse, children, and then the church. You are not to move on to the next level until their prior ones are in line. I use the 'line' example as a visual. Per scripture - God, Family, Church. He also has no business in his position unless he has his family where they need to be. Doesn't matter about her expectations about being a wife of a minister. She is his first ministry, and he must find a way of helping her along that path.
If her expectations were unrealistic as you seem to be hinting at - his first job is to help her with that. Not rage. The bible never gives him permission to rage. I guess I would reverse that question and ask why is he expecting her to be comfortable in her position if he isn't doing his darnest to help her feel comfortable? What does HE expect? He should be clearly stepping down now, and he isn't from the sound of it. That is clearly against scripture as well - why isn't he? Why would he rage at his sister - as with his family - if he is so correct in his place at this point? Does God ask us to rage and encourage family to take sides like this?
The single biggest problem today in nearly every American church, in my opinion, is our leadership's failure to meet with the Lord, in daily devotions and prayer. If they just did that, I am convinced, our biggest church "problem" would be finding enough seating for all the new believers coming through our church doors each week.
I disagree. You have a right to your opinion tho.
I will pray for your brother as the Lord brings him to mind. Please keep us posted on the outcome, IMS.
Take care,
Exsulent
I will be praying for everyone involved.
_____________________________
h
Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 9/30/2008 3:23:43 PM
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ImSassy
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I am sad to say that after 3 weeks, the only communication that I have had with my parents or my brother is that my Mom has now told me that if my brother were to have a heart attack and die now because of the stress that he is under because of his divorce, that I would be FOREVER cut off from her because I have allowed them (SIL) to "hang" him.
Before God, I tried to resign, remove myself so that I would not be in the middle. I did allow my SIL and children to stay for 3 nights at my house and would again today if need be. I have not encouraged her to pursue a divorce or nor have I tried to talk about their issues. I would only like to keep a relationship as a friend, Aunt, Mother of my Niece and Nephew, etc. No to find out ALL the dirt that I can. That is between them and I would prefer that it stay there.
It is hurtful and very SHOCKING to say the least. I can't even imagine looking at my children and telling them that they would be forever cut off from me no matter what they would or could ever do!
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 9/30/2008 3:32:56 PM
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laura...
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I am sorry to say that it is now quite apparent where your brother learned his manipulative and abusive behavior. I praise God that you have somehow learned differently.
I am so sorry that you are being punished for your brother's sins. Stay strong in the Lord. The Lord will comfort you and work it all out in the end.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 9/30/2008 5:35:27 PM
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hnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ImSassy
I am sad to say that after 3 weeks, the only communication that I have had with my parents or my brother is that my Mom has now told me that if my brother were to have a heart attack and die now because of the stress that he is under because of his divorce, that I would be FOREVER cut off from her because I have allowed them (SIL) to "hang" him.
Before God, I tried to resign, remove myself so that I would not be in the middle. I did allow my SIL and children to stay for 3 nights at my house and would again today if need be. I have not encouraged her to pursue a divorce or nor have I tried to talk about their issues. I would only like to keep a relationship as a friend, Aunt, Mother of my Niece and Nephew, etc. No to find out ALL the dirt that I can. That is between them and I would prefer that it stay there.
It is hurtful and very SHOCKING to say the least. I can't even imagine looking at my children and telling them that they would be forever cut off from me no matter what they would or could ever do!
I'm sorry this is happening ImSassy. 
I'm sure you know this is NOT your fault in anyway. This is completely out of your hands, and its up to your brother and his wife to figure this out. I would pray for them both, and allow God to take over. I would pray for your parents as well. It seems their common sense has gone out the window, and is instead replaced by the drama in the situation. Its not right that they place you in the whipping boy position.
_____________________________
h
Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 9/30/2008 7:55:32 PM
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Sadey
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Your mom is probably beside herself (hence the remark that if your brother has a heart attack ect ect) because she can't pretend anymore nor can she stop whats happening to your brother. So of course its either your fault for helping SIL or its SIL's fault for shining the light of truth on the situation.
Hon, remember you are not fighting against flesh and blood, but against the principalities of darkness. So don't despair and don't give up. You did the right thing and someday you will look back and know that not only did you do the right thing but you were blessed by doing so.
God bless you and comfort you
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 9/30/2008 11:30:39 PM
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Exsulence
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What was said by the op that makes you think the pastor's wife was a "whiner" or was constantly "dripping"???
The "whiner" was said to be complaining about all the time he gives to the church -- instead of to her. Of course. Can't you just hear her? Why, I can hear that woman nagging him for all his many duties, from here. Not helping him with them. No. Just complaining about all the people he has vowed to serve.
I guess the better description for her would have been "pity-pouter."
Incidentally, I have a neighbor whose rebellious, violent, and abusive teenage daughter once managed to get the police to turn up at his house and throw HIM into handcuffs for, quote, "pushing her around." (He'd grabbed her by her shoulders and forced her back against a wall, trying to get control of her, once.) This is the same girl who was once found being kicked out of her boyfriend's car, as she tried scrambling back in, screaming "No. Please don't leave me!"
I have a real hard time, these days, believing there is genuine "abuse," under MOST circumstances -- unless little kids are involved, who aren't so shrewd as to make this **** up, knowing the police overwhelmingly err on the side of the "victim."
P.S. I'm happy to report that the teenage girl and her father have mended their relationship completely, now that he's been made by her a grandfather. Just after graduating highschool, she got pregnant and is raising a baby, now, with another man (an employee of the girl's father). Gramps is asked often to look after the youngster, of whom he is very, very proud. So much for "physical abuse" charges, eh?
_____________________________
"Ah, Lord God, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and Your outstretched arm. Nothing is too difficult for You! (Jer. 32: 17)"
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 9/30/2008 11:45:19 PM
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Exsulence
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You need to read the second post the OP posted, where more of the details are divulged. She admitted before the church she is "bitter." I'm guessing that isn't even the half of it.
Indeed, we can never know ALL of the details. No one knows how horrible she has probably been with him, at home, when no one's around.
The Lord speaks on the subject of "dripping" wives, repeatedly. I pity any man forced to live with one, but, as mentioned in my first post, his having issues with her START from his failure to maintain a prayerful relationship with the Lord.
Sadly, I don't think MOST pastors today close a door on their prayer closets, regularly -- as evidenced by our overwhelming failure to reach the lost in this country, or, heaven forbid, experience a long-overdue REVIVAL.
_____________________________
"Ah, Lord God, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and Your outstretched arm. Nothing is too difficult for You! (Jer. 32: 17)"
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 9/30/2008 11:57:13 PM
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Hislittleone
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ImSassy, this must be so very difficult for you. I don't see how your family can be so upset with you. All you did was let her stay with you for a short time. Even if they divorce, she will still be family in a way because she's still the mother of your niece and nephew. So it's important to maintain a descent relationship with her.
It sounds like your parents aren't thinking very clearly right now. They certainly aren't exhibiting Christlike behavior.
Do you have other family and friends who will support you during this time? I can't even imagine going through something like this. I'll be keeping you in my prayers.
< Message edited by Hislittleone -- 10/1/2008 1:19:23 AM >
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 10/1/2008 8:44:49 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Exsulence
You need to read the second post the OP posted, where more of the details are divulged. She admitted before the church she is "bitter." I'm guessing that isn't even the half of it. Anyone would be bitter if they are not treated properly. How well we deal with that is determined by our own maturity level in the Lord.
"I'm guessing..." Do you know how to spell 'Assume?'
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 10/13/2008 10:08:51 AM
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DeeAnnBailey
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Having lived in an abusive relationship with someone that everyone thought was 'wonderful', I find Exsulence posts alarming. Unless you are a friend of the pastor who is just trying to 'redeem him ' here, your posts show a lack of care or concern for the physical safety of the children in that home! If you are a friend, I respect your standing by your friend but doing it by calling names isn't helping the case.
Clearly both parties need prayer as does the entire family. God can intervene but both parties must be willing. If you read Eph. the directives begin with the husband. It doesn't say that the wife is to be submissive and then the husband is to love the wife as Christ loved the church.
It first tells the husband that he is to love his wife as Christ loved the church, there are no exceptions given for pastors on this. If he fulfills this, the directive to the wife to be submissive isn't a hard one. 99.9% of the women in this world would be submissive to a husband who loved them the way that Christ loves the church.
ImSassy - will be in prayer for you and your family!
_____________________________
D. Ann Bailey
My Blog Dee's Delights and Delusions
Pro-life, troup supporting Christian
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 10/13/2008 11:04:19 AM
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ImSassy
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Thank you D. I agree with your post. Since my last post, it has gotten very ugly. People attending the church have called and said that the Pastor (my brother) has cried from the pulpit saying this is the worse storm that he has ever been through and that he came to the realization that he loved his wife more than God so now God has taken her from him to make him get his priorities back in line. All the while, my parents are standing right there with him, backing every word he says. It is all very sad as they knew most of what had gone on before my SIL actually left.
It has been over a month now and still the only communication that I have had with them is for my Mom to call me and tell me that I had BETTER make it right with my brother and to set up a meeting with him or I would be the loser. I told her that I would meet with all of them, not just my brother as he inevitably turns everything around that is said. When I called him, he refused to meet. I called and let my mom know that I tried to arrange a meeting and that he refused. I haven't heard back from them since.
I don't truly even know what to pray or how to pray. Not only have I been cut off from them, my children have as well. I am honestly going on with my life and asking God to show me what I can do when it is the right time to do it. I realize this can't be fixed in the "physical" until something breaks in the "spiritual".
Please pray! It is very sad. I think I am mostly in shock by all of it.
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 10/13/2008 1:25:43 PM
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DeeAnnBailey
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You are in my prayers! God Bless you for not taking the easy route.
_____________________________
D. Ann Bailey
My Blog Dee's Delights and Delusions
Pro-life, troup supporting Christian
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 10/14/2008 12:08:34 AM
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ImSassy
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Can anyone explain to me the verse that says "When the enemy comes in like a flood, the Lord will raise a standard against him"? In light of all that has gone on (as posted from the previous posts), how deep does it have to get before it is considered a flood? W
When is right, right and wrong, wrong? When does vindication come?
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 10/15/2008 5:07:04 PM
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ffbruce
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quote:
I don't truly even know what to pray or how to pray. Not only have I been cut off from them, my children have as well. I am honestly going on with my life and asking God to show me what I can do when it is the right time to do it. I realize this can't be fixed in the "physical" until something breaks in the "spiritual".
Please pray! It is very sad. I think I am mostly in shock by all of it.
And all of this is because you let your sister-in-law, and her kids, stay with you for a couple days?
This is a terribly sick and dysfunctional situation. It's no wonder your brother is so manipulative and two-faced.
As a full-time pastor of well over 20 years, I have lots of thoughts on all this, but I won't blather on unless you have specific questions.
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 10/16/2008 1:13:30 PM
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ImSassy
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quote:
And all of this is because you let your sister-in-law, and her kids, stay with you for a couple days?
Yes! They think that I should have immediately stood with my brother as "blood is thicker than water". They stated and I quote, "That if my brother had a heart attack because of the stress that he is under because of this that I would be FOREVER cut off". I couldn't cut my SIL off then and I won't now. My door will always be open to her and my niece and nephew.
Feel free to blather on! I'm sure that I can identify at this point!
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 10/16/2008 1:34:17 PM
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ffbruce
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ImSassy
quote:
And all of this is because you let your sister-in-law, and her kids, stay with you for a couple days?
Yes! They think that I should have immediately stood with my brother as "blood is thicker than water". They stated and I quote, "That if my brother had a heart attack because of the stress that he is under because of this that I would be FOREVER cut off". I couldn't cut my SIL off then and I won't now. My door will always be open to her and my niece and nephew.
Feel free to blather on! I'm sure that I can identify at this point!
The leadership of the church needs to have your brother step down - temporarily - as pastor of the church. Period. If he has an admitted history of neglecting his family for the sake of church work, he needs this time away. My opinion is that a minimum of 3 months is necessary. They need to pay him his salary, so that he and his family aren't thrown into financial turmoil.
During that time, your brother needs to spend time getting himself, and his family, back on track.
During that time also, the church leadership needs to humbly and honestly assess whether or not the allegations of abuse are true. If they are true, at the very least, your brother needs some serious professional help.
Having been in it for over 20 years, I am fully aware of the demands that full-time vocational ministry can place on a pastor. But there are also times when the pastor puts those unreasonable demands on himself. There are other times when pastors use "I'm too busy doing God's work at the church" as an excuse to neglect their marriage and family. My first - and most important - church is my immediate family. If your brother cannot handle being BOTH a family man and a pastor, he needs to stop being a pastor.
I'll stop for now.
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 10/16/2008 1:55:42 PM
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ImSassy
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quote:
If your brother cannot handle being BOTH a family man and a pastor, he needs to stop being a pastor.
I agree! But he would first have to admit that he has a problem and that has yet to happen. His actions are because "everyone" else have pushed his buttons.
At this point he is trying to rally everyone to his side. It is like playing Charades and has been for years. He is still trying to "Save Face" before the church.
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 10/16/2008 2:06:46 PM
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ffbruce
Posts: 271
Joined: 10/14/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ImSassy
quote:
If your brother cannot handle being BOTH a family man and a pastor, he needs to stop being a pastor.
I agree! But he would first have to admit that he has a problem and that has yet to happen. His actions are because "everyone" else have pushed his buttons.
At this point he is trying to rally everyone to his side. It is like playing Charades and has been for years. He is still trying to "Save Face" before the church.
An abuser ALWAYS says it's somebody else's fault.
Nonetheless, what is wrong with the church leadership? Why are they letting a pastor, whose wife has just left him under allegations of abuse, go on as if nothing is happening?
The fact that their pastor's wife has recently filed for divorce is absolutely - no questions asked - reason for them to give him a leave of absence. And their lack of doing so SCREAMS a lack of integrity or backbone.
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RE: Pastor/Brother getting Divorce - 10/16/2008 2:40:20 PM
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laura...
Posts: 2861
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
Status: offline
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quote:
They think that I should have immediately stood with my brother as "blood is thicker than water".
If it helps you any...that saying (Blood is thicker than water) was originally coined as "the blood of Jesus Christ is thicker than the water of birth". It meant that the family of God was more binding than human families.
< Message edited by laura... -- 10/16/2008 2:46:31 PM >
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This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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