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RE: Absolute Truth - 9/20/2008 12:10:28 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
If someone has a wrong perception that is your opinion. You can't really tell another that they are wrong for feeling or thinking the way that they do. (I'm not speaking of spiritual matters here but rather in any circumstance).
Okay, DD, here is something stemming from my experience. As you may know, I used to be a probation officer and supervised sex offenders. I had a man on my caseload who was in his 90's. He molested numerous young girls over his lifetime. He called himself a Christian. He cited Bible verses all the time and spoke about how he did not need man's laws and institutions to tell him what to do. He used scripture to justify what he did to these young girls saying that he was teaching them.
Treatment is in a group setting. Myself, the therapist and all the members of the group told this man that he was wrong, that his interpretations of scripture were off bases. He would go into "prayer" for each and every one of us.
Thing is, while we were discussing his sexual offending, the heart of the matter is a spiritual issue. His wrong perception was more than just my opinion. It was imperative that he learn that his thinking/feelings were wrong as his thoughts led to action that's harful to others.
In my heart I know this man knows he's wrong. I saved his life (literally) and whenver he sees me he tells me the Lord spoke to me to bring me to him in his time of need. My recollection of that day was the look of sheer terror on his face. My subsequent conversations with him tell me that he knows he's not ready for eternity.
It seems to me there are some matters where absolute truth has to be spoken in spite of another's experience. I also think this is why God created us as relational beings and tells us frequently to lift each other up, bear one another's burderns, etc. If we are to learn and grow, we are to disciple one another. What is the root word for disciple? To lead, to guide, to instruct.
_____________________________
“A dead thing goes with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.”
G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Absolute Truth - 9/20/2008 12:17:51 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
You're right. We can't tell another that they are wrong. It's not our right to judge. Who are we to judge? But God can judge, He is the judge. We can point, if someone is wrong, that what they did goes against God's standards. They didn't violate us, they violated God.
Why can't we tell another they're wrong? Seems to me that the word "judge" often gets misapplied. We cannot judge in the manner that we condemn someone. That's God's role, not ours. Yet, we have to make judgments everyday regarding all sorts of things, especially in matters of right and wrong. You are right, we can discuss God's standards and, hopefully, help ourselves and others gain a better understanding of God's standards.
quote:
Yes, the truth is that it may have offended someone, but the truth isn't that they were necessarily wrong. Sometimes truth offends, but that doesn't make it wrong. Sometimes when I am out evangelizing, people are offended when I say that we are sinners. Sometimes they are offended because I say that we deserve to go to hell. But that doesn't make what I say wrong.
Also, if someone offends you, they may or may not be wrong, no matter if they feel that you should be offended or not. He or her has to consider some things. What was his or her attitude when he or her said what was said. Was what he said in love? Could she have said what she said in a nicer way, or with more tact? These things make up the wrong, if there is one. Does that make sense?
It also seems, sometimes, that we take too much responsibility for others feelings. Yes, we should not go out of our way to be offensive. Yet, if I say something in truth and it hurts, like truth often does, I am not responsible for the emotions of the wounded party. The only emotions I can control are my own.
_____________________________
“A dead thing goes with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.”
G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Absolute Truth - 9/20/2008 12:29:41 PM
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jonfortean6
Posts: 969
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From: Pennsylvania
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quote:
Why can't we tell another they're wrong? Seems to me that the word "judge" often gets misapplied. We cannot judge in the manner that we condemn someone. That's God's role, not ours. Yet, we have to make judgments everyday regarding all sorts of things, especially in matters of right and wrong. You are right, we can discuss God's standards and, hopefully, help ourselves and others gain a better understanding of God's standards.
You said it better than I did. What I meant is that, if there was no absolute truth, which God is the standard of, then what would give us the right to tell another that they are wrong? What gives us the right to say that something is wrong? Then answer is, we don't have the right to decide if something is wrong or not. God's standard is the measurment for right and wrong. I'm not saying that we can't tell someone if they are wrong :) That was mis-communication on my part.
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RE: Absolute Truth - 9/20/2008 12:29:57 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1942
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
It seems to me there are some matters where absolute truth has to be spoken in spite of another's experience. I also think this is why God created us as relational beings and tells us frequently to lift each other up, bear one another's burdens, etc. If we are to learn and grow, we are to disciple one another. What is the root word for disciple? To lead, to guide, to instruct.
As with everything there are exceptions to the rule. There are the demented ones who have true mental illness. There version of the truth is often so far from reality. Challenging their beliefs can be a dangerous venture, which I'm sure Zamdad, you have run into.
Are people's versions of the truth wrong? Of course to a person who doesn't believe that way. That is the nature of debate.
The awesome thing that we can all hold onto even if we don't convince another of their faulty thinking, is that everything hidden will be revealed. We can trust God to deliver the truth. Sometimes it takes patience on our part and sometimes we are too slow to react!
No matter what, the truth indeed sets us free.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Absolute Truth - 9/20/2008 12:31:25 PM
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jonfortean6
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From: Pennsylvania
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quote:
As with everything there are exceptions to the rule. There are the demented ones who have true mental illness. There version of the truth is often so far from reality. Challenging their beliefs can be a dangerous venture, which I'm sure Zamdad, you have run into.
Are people's versions of the truth wrong? Of course to a person who doesn't believe that way. That is the nature of debate.
The awesome thing that we can all hold onto even if we don't convince another of their faulty thinking, is that everything hidden will be revealed. We can trust God to deliver the truth. Sometimes it takes patience on our part and sometimes we are too slow to react!
No matter what, the truth indeed sets us free.
Amen.
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RE: Absolute Truth - 9/20/2008 3:43:18 PM
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ekserekseez
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The problem with this argument is twofold: lack of a common definition of "truth" and a misunderstanding of postmodernist arguments denying the existence of an approachable metanarrative.
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RE: Absolute Truth - 9/20/2008 4:02:31 PM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
The problem with this argument is twofold: lack of a common definition of "truth" and a misunderstanding of postmodernist arguments denying the existence of an approachable metanarrative.
Can you rephrase that into layman's terms please?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Absolute Truth - 9/20/2008 4:05:30 PM
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ekserekseez
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Sure. Most postmodernist thought states that we cannot view history, ethical situations, or other events from a "big picture" point of view (the metanarrative). We think that we are observers, but are actually participants, whose very participation skews the conditions of observation. This parallels similar observations in quantum mechanics and other fields of particle physics.
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RE: Absolute Truth - 9/20/2008 4:20:34 PM
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ekserekseez
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The point is that you think you see the big picture, but you don't really, because you are PART of the big picture, and inside it, so you never can really see the entire thing without it being altered by your particular point of view.
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RE: Absolute Truth - 9/20/2008 5:05:54 PM
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ekserekseez
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I think that if you believe Jesus is God, that means that he DOES see the "big picture." That's why there are Christian postmodernists.
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RE: Absolute Truth - 9/20/2008 5:12:44 PM
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deliveredarling
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I don't know what a Christian postmodernist is or even just a postmodernist.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Absolute Truth - 9/20/2008 5:16:10 PM
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ekserekseez
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I know lots of postmodernists, and a couple of Christian postmodernists (I am neither).
Christian postmodernists tell me that Christianity has become too dependent on modernism, the predominant mode of thought in the West from about 1600 to 1950.
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RE: Absolute Truth - 9/22/2008 2:53:37 PM
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Jhud
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I think the problem in these discussions is that 'truth' is often spoken of as if it is some ephemeral entity that emanates from one's head - it's not, truth is simply a description of reality. As much as reality actually exists (and I think most here can agree it does) then an accurate description of that reality would be 'truth', however one wants to qualify it.
And the only way we could possibly understand what is true about God, temporal earth-bound creatures that we are, is if He were to give us (or, as we understand it, reveal to us) such truth. And that is what Scripture is, God's description of Himself and His relationship to us.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Absolute Truth - 9/22/2008 2:58:18 PM
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jonfortean6
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quote:
I think the problem in these discussions is that 'truth' is often spoken of as if it is some ephemeral entity that emanates from one's head - it's not, truth is simply a description of reality. As much as reality actually exists (and I think most here can agree it does) then an accurate description of that reality would be 'truth', however one wants to qualify it.
And the only way we could possibly understand what is true about God, temporal earth-bound creatures that we are, is if He were to give us (or, as we understand it, reveal to us) such truth. And that is what Scripture is, God's description of Himself and His relationship to us.
I totally agree with that, but what we are discussing in this thread is more of the ethical aspect of truth. When it comes to ethics, there has to be a right and wrong, and people who say that there is no definite right or wrong are, plain and simple, wrong.
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RE: Absolute Truth - 9/22/2008 3:19:09 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
I totally agree with that, but what we are discussing in this thread is more of the ethical aspect of truth. When it comes to ethics, there has to be a right and wrong, and people who say that there is no definite right or wrong are, plain and simple, wrong.
Well, I certainly agree that there is a right and wrong, but I would say that what is truly right and wrong is really a reflection of the reality of God's nature, and to a much more limited degree, that reality as expressed in the human conscience by His design.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Absolute Truth - 9/22/2008 5:17:15 PM
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jonfortean6
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quote:
Well, I certainly agree that there is a right and wrong, but I would say that what is truly right and wrong is really a reflection of the reality of God's nature, and to a much more limited degree, that reality as expressed in the human conscience by His design.
Well, I believe that what is truly right is a reflection of the reality of God's nature. Not what is truly right and wrong. Wrong is just whatever goes against God's standard. But I agree with everything else.
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RE: Absolute Truth - 9/22/2008 6:10:01 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7843
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quote:
Well, I believe that what is truly right is a reflection of the reality of God's nature. Not what is truly right and wrong. Wrong is just whatever goes against God's standard. But I agree with everything else.
Yes, that's a reasonable clarification - I have heard that evil is the absence of good, or I suppose in this case a diminishment or corruption of that which reflects God's nature. This would explain the why murder is the worst of crimes; it destroys that which was made in the image of God.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Absolute Truth - 9/22/2008 6:16:11 PM
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jonfortean6
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From: Pennsylvania
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quote:
Yes, that's a reasonable clarification - I have heard that evil is the absence of good, or I suppose in this case a diminishment or corruption of that which reflects God's nature. This would explain the why murder is the worst of crimes; it destroys that which was made in the image of God.
I don't believe that evil is the absence of good, because without good, there could be no evil. If there is was no evil, there could still be good. But if there was no good, there could be no evil, because who would be able to say that something was wrong?
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RE: Absolute Truth - 9/29/2008 4:06:42 PM
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endless_night
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: jonfortean6
quote:
It is so sad, we must pray for it without ceasing and spread the Gospel wherever there are ears to hear.
Amen SuccessinTruth. Also, do you have any other techniques to refute this argument?
The student did a successful bait-and-switch by going from a discussion of values to measurable data.
When you make a statement "there are no absolute truths" then you have just included everything in the universe. Whether you place that statement in a particular context doesn't matter, because the statement itself is a blanket statement.
If the teacher said "There are no absolute truths when it comes to morals and values" then it has a condition and the "smart student" could not have used the Christopher Columbus argument.
Truth applies to everything, not just for morals and values.
_____________________________
The Fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments. His praises endures forever.
Psalms 111:10
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RE: Absolute Truth - 9/29/2008 4:18:15 PM
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jonfortean6
Posts: 969
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From: Pennsylvania
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quote:
quote:
Jhud wrote:
Yes, that's a reasonable clarification - I have heard that evil is the absence of good, or I suppose in this case a diminishment or corruption of that which reflects God's nature. This would explain the why murder is the worst of crimes; it destroys that which was made in the image of God.
Jonfortean6 wrote:
I don't believe that evil is the absence of good, because without good, there could be no evil. If there is was no evil, there could still be good. But if there was no good, there could be no evil, because who would be able to say that something was wrong?
I apologize. I agree with you, I was confused on the definition of absence. I was thinking of the definition of absence as "something not existing," in a sense, but I see now that you mean it as "something not present," in a sense. I understand now.
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