Can we choose to believe? (Full Version)

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KaseyTom -> Can we choose to believe? (9/18/2008 10:56:41 AM)

In the science and origins forum a thread took and interesting off topic turn before the mod swatted it down. So I thought I would bring it up here. It there is a more appropriete forum please move it.

The question is, can we choose what we believe, or is belief a function of experiences and circumstances?

Throughout this board I constantly see posts implying belief (or non-belief) in God is choice we make, and that if we make the wrong choice we pay the consequences.

It is my contention (and my belief) that ones beliefs, whether religious, political, scientific, philosophical, moral etc. cannot change simply by choosing to do so.

If a non-believer could choose to believe, then a believer should be able to choose not to believe. How many of you could do that even if you wanted to? You could go through the motions, walk the walk, talk the talk, etc., but could you, in your heart of hearts believe there is no God simply by choosing to do so?

If I offered you a billion dollars to believe, it your heart of hearts, that 1st term abortion is moral, could you do it? Even for a day?

As a test, I will honestly attempt to change my belief on the subject I just posted. I will try to believe that belief in God is a choice. My problem is that I simply have no idea how to do it. When I try, it is counteracted by a lifetime of experiences that tell me what I currently believe is correct.



deermousie -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/18/2008 11:06:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
Throughout this board I constantly see posts implying believe (or non-belief) in God is choice we make, and that if we make the wrong choice we pay the consequences. .


This is one of those funny things about God that's hard for me to understand. The anwer we choose, but God chooses us first.

We are all born spiritually dead. We can't respond to God because dead people don't respond. Yell at a dead body next time you see one. Nothing will happen (except you'll be booted out of the funeral home).

God causes some people to be made alive, and He draws them to Himself to believe in Him. It is one of the greatest miracles of the universe, and He doesn't explain how He does it.

God lets some people run away, dead and unsaved, and He never calls them or makes them alive spiritually. But He also judges them for never responding to His truth (how many evil people heard the Gospel when they were kids but never wanted it?).

So God judges us but He also chooses us. I don't get how it can be both, but I can't get away from it in Scripture. A hundred years from now, I'll understand it and be satisfied that God was totally righteous the way He did things.



iamjc-s -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/18/2008 11:06:36 AM)

Anyone can CHOOSE to ignore the evidence in our world that there is a Divine Creator God. People CHOOSE to do so every day.

Any Christian can CHOOSE to listen to false teachings & thus eventually become confused & stray from Christ & His flock of CHRISTians.

Nobody alive can truly, completely be an non-believer, for all believe in something or someone, even if only theirself.



MrFribbles -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/18/2008 11:23:37 AM)

Something I read recently (it was in a book by a collection of authors, so I can't recall who specifically wrote it) suggested that we can only change (be it in action or belief) when our passions are stirred to act. In the context, he was speaking of moral behavior - we can be told it's wrong to steal, we can "know" it's wrong to steal, but if our hearts are not moved to really know the wrongness of stealing, then the lessons we learn will slip off like weak glue in a rainstorm.
So, for the topic at hand, I would agree we can't just flip a switch, so to speak, and believe something else. But we can change what we believe - if this were not so, we would all still be like newborn infants. It just takes something more than sheer willpower.



w4tvq -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/18/2008 11:24:12 AM)

The question is comlicated by the definition of "believe."

One can choose to adopt an intellectual point of view, and to give assent to arguments in favor of that point of view, or disputing arguments against it. Some call that "belief."

One can "believe in belief" without actually believing in God.

By way of example: a primitive man believes that if he sacrifices a goat, he will get good crips; to fail to sacrifice the goat will result in bad crops. He sacrifices the goat. He probably does not sit down and ponder the theological implications of his belief or of the goat; in his mind, it is A --> B; sacrifice the goat, get good crops. He believes in the "force" or god that makes this mechanism work. He would not consider not sacrificing the goat. That is belief. If one believes, one acts in a manner appropriate to that belief, up to and including decisions that might posibly threaten life and limb. If one stops short at that point, then one simply has "believed in belief" without really believing in God.

I question whether real belief is a choice, or whether it is an instilled element of character. It can be instilled by the example of parents or mentors who believe; it can be instilled by a traumatic event such as being delivered from addiction or healed of a terminal illness; but I question whether real belief can be "chosen."

JMO
Namaste
Art



KaseyTom -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/18/2008 11:38:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iamjc-s

Anyone can CHOOSE to ignore the evidence in our world that there is a Divine Creator God. People CHOOSE to do so every day.

Any Christian can CHOOSE to listen to false teachings & thus eventually become confused & stray from Christ & His flock of CHRISTians.

Nobody alive can truly, completely be an non-believer, for all believe in something or someone, even if only theirself.


If circumstances had led you to be a theoretical physicist or geneticist, do you think the experience of your lifetime would have given you a different perspective on the evedence?

How about if you happen to be born in SW Pakistan?



KaseyTom -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/18/2008 11:42:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

Something I read recently (it was in a book by a collection of authors, so I can't recall who specifically wrote it) suggested that we can only change (be it in action or belief) when our passions are stirred to act.


This concept works well for me. Thanks for that.

Of course it leaves open the question of what makes a person become passionate of one thing and not another. I bet exposure to the passions of others, particularly ones family, friends, and piers can create passion in someone. It is no big secret the people in Christian areas of the world become Christians and people in the Islamic parts of the world become Muslims.

Good scientists are passionate about science and the scientific method. Within their pier group get very little exposure to religious passion. They are more likely to be exposed to anti-religion passion.



mvic -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/18/2008 2:43:36 PM)

To believe in something requires one of two components.

Either proof that what you believe in is actually true, as far as you accept truth to be a fact.

Or a belief in something without proof at all but through a choice to believe - in blind Faith as it were.

For example: I choose to believe there is a person whose name is KaseyTom. I have no proof of this whatsoever. Your post could have been posted by the Mods, or by another member of this Forum who has registered again under the name KaseyTom. The only way for me to believe you exist is if I met you in person and got to know you as KaseyTom.

So for the time being my belief in your existance as an individual is through blind Faith - belief with no proof whatsoever. I choose to believe in you.

Similarly, some people choose to believe in God. Through blind Faith. Jesus did in fact say happy those who have not seen me and believe in me.

Others, are fortunate enough to have proof that God exists. This proof is valid for them only. Try as they may to prove to others the existance of God and they will fail. Each individual, by the grace of God, receives his own proof.



URForgiven -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/18/2008 2:47:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaseyTom

In the science and origins forum a thread took and interesting off topic turn before the mod swatted it down. So I thought I would bring it up here. It there is a more appropriete forum please move it.

The question is, can we choose what we believe, or is belief a function of experiences and circumstances?

Our choice is not whether to believe or not, our choice is in whom will we believe? We are not Christians because we believe in belief, nor are we Christians because we have beliefs, we are Christians because of Who we believe in.

What I believe about the God I believe in, changes all the time. He doesn't change, I do. As He replaces more of the error in my thinking with His truth, I change, and what I believe about Him changes. My thinking becomes more in line with who He truly is. It is truth replacing error in our thinking that produces positive change.

When confronted with the truth, are we willing to give up the lie that the truth has exposed? This is our constant and ever present choice.

Peace



sparkleingsnow -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/18/2008 3:56:18 PM)

I think we choose to believe. Sure being raised in a family that believes makes believing a lot easier. (Maybe that's why the Lord places us where He does at our birth. I don't know.) But lots of people raised by christian parents choose not to believe. So how do we choose? By faith. And that is what saves us. Faith in what Jesus did on the cross, faith (belief) that He is God's Son and that God raised Him from the grave.

Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

So what is faith?

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance F36 of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

We can even ask the Lord to held us believe. That's what this man did, when he choose to believe.

Mark 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

God Bless.



SavedByGraceMD -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/18/2008 4:12:51 PM)

To put it simply, I believe we can choose to believe.

To drag it out, we obviously have to be exposed to something in order to believe. Like someone else stated, someone born into a Muslim country would probably become a Muslim. Someone born into a Christian country would either become a Christian or an antagonizing atheist, jj, just poking some fun at any atheists who may read this.

It comes down to what we are exposed to and what we do with that information. Not everyone exposed to Christ will follow Him. Those who do, choose to do so. Circumstances can play a part in what happens, as well as our openness to accepting what we learn. At some point in our lives I believe we all search for more, for meaning, and for purpose. The only place imho to find it, is God.

The sad part is that many have been exposed to the truth about Jesus and choose not to believe. There may be differing reasons for this, and different opinions on why this happens, but it is the truth. In the end we will have to make a choice. To pick up our cross and follow, or to turn and leave like the rich young man who had many possessions.

So can we just believe if we have no basis for that belief. The bible tells us that there is ample evidence in Gods creation for any of us to believe. But of course it doesn't always work like that.



LCannon -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/18/2008 4:59:41 PM)

Even the most pagan soul is responsible to the light he shown; even the light of creation. When he appropriates that Light into his belief experience in obedience/service to others, in this case the Light of Creation and His Creator, he will receive additional 'light'. Can we choose to believe? It's a foregone conclusion; we're not capable of that stretch in imagination but only when the Holy Spirit woos us can we're capable of that choice and choose us must. Choice isn't whether we will believe for all will bow down in either allegiance or judgment but whether we will come in obedience and service thus Victory or whether one will remain in his arrogance and judgment. The risk(or reward)is borne by the individual soul.



sparkleingsnow -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/18/2008 5:56:15 PM)

I wanted to come back and add that if we choose not to believe we are already condemned already.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

And as LCannon said we can only come to Him and believe by the power of the Holy Spirit. The Bible tells us that too. But still, He gives us the free choice.



MrFribbles -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/18/2008 6:17:34 PM)

quote:

Of course it leaves open the question of what makes a person become passionate of one thing and not another. I bet exposure to the passions of others, particularly ones family, friends, and piers can create passion in someone. It is no big secret the people in Christian areas of the world become Christians and people in the Islamic parts of the world become Muslims.


This is generally true, and works well within the Christian worldview. Parents are taught to bring up their children in the Lord, and part of the result of that is a lifestyle that will point them in the direction of having a passion stirred in them to believe in God, as their parents do. Similarly, if, say, Hindu parents raise their children with a passion for their religion evident in their lives, then the children will likely follow.
Though, as a side note, I think it's interesting how many youth in America (perhaps especially in this generation, but being a college student myself, I can't say) seem to flow in the opposite direction - that is, "My parents believe this, so I won't. I'll go this other way instead."

quote:

Good scientists are passionate about science and the scientific method. Within their pier group get very little exposure to religious passion. They are more likely to be exposed to anti-religion passion.


If all a person is involved in is science, then yes, I believe this would be generally true. However, I don't know many people whose entire life is consumed in one area - the pie chart of "them" has no slices, in other words.
Also, even if that were the case, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of one's passions being stirred in spite of one's circumstances. I've heard multiple accounts (2nd hand, I'm afraid) of individuals in "closed countries" (Christianese for "a place missionaries are not legally permitted to evangelize") converting to Christianity, either from a secret sharing of the gospel, or rarely, a direct vision of Christ, or some other mystic (a word I use here carefully, and will define on request) experience.



Walker311 -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/18/2008 11:00:17 PM)

quote:

God lets some people run away, dead and unsaved, and He never calls them or makes them alive spiritually. But He also judges them for never responding to His truth


This is debatable because the unbeliever would see this as God creates souls for hell and on top of it, you are saying it is the hell bound souls' fault. Why on earth would a sinner even care about trying to believe if there is a chance they are made for hell anyway?

You cannot carelessly make such statements without scriptural support or correction in your statements.

Please fix this.



Thessa -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/19/2008 6:33:15 AM)

God gives us free will. That means we choose our path - whether it be good or evil. Christians choose to do our best to live the way God says is right, unbelievers live the way they see fit.
We all have choices for a reason. If we end up in Hell we dont have anyone to blame but ourselves.



Thessa -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/19/2008 6:37:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deermousie

This is one of those funny things about God that's hard for me to understand. The anwer we choose, but God chooses us first.

We are all born spiritually dead. We can't respond to God because dead people don't respond. Yell at a dead body next time you see one. Nothing will happen (except you'll be booted out of the funeral home).

God causes some people to be made alive, and He draws them to Himself to believe in Him. It is one of the greatest miracles of the universe, and He doesn't explain how He does it.

God lets some people run away, dead and unsaved, and He never calls them or makes them alive spiritually. But He also judges them for never responding to His truth (how many evil people heard the Gospel when they were kids but never wanted it?).

So God judges us but He also chooses us. I don't get how it can be both, but I can't get away from it in Scripture. A hundred years from now, I'll understand it and be satisfied that God was totally righteous the way He did things.



Wrong. Totally wrong on all counts.
You are basically saying that the ones that dont believe have reason to blame God for not choosing them, correct?
God chose all of us. But we have a CHOICE on whether or not to choose Him. To choose eternal life or to choose hell.



timf -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/19/2008 7:13:47 AM)

Can we choose to believe?

The Bibles mentions both our responsibility to chose and God's election. Many people have spent their lives trying to defend one view or the other. The way I view it is that since the Bible mentions both, both must be true. Just because I do not understand how this can be does not mean that it cannot be. Even the angels seek to learn things they do not understand.

1 Peter 1:12
Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.



bob97 -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/20/2008 1:34:40 AM)

Romans 1:19 - 20 (ESV) 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

All men are aware of God on the innate level and as such can be held responsible for not responding to God because God gave them awareness of Himself. On the other hand some men are drawn to God and have the faith to believe in something unseen.

Man is unable to believe in anything unless motivated by some influence outside himself.

Bob



PureLight -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/20/2008 8:47:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thessa

quote:

ORIGINAL: deermousie

This is one of those funny things about God that's hard for me to understand. The anwer we choose, but God chooses us first.

We are all born spiritually dead. We can't respond to God because dead people don't respond. Yell at a dead body next time you see one. Nothing will happen (except you'll be booted out of the funeral home).

God causes some people to be made alive, and He draws them to Himself to believe in Him. It is one of the greatest miracles of the universe, and He doesn't explain how He does it.

God lets some people run away, dead and unsaved, and He never calls them or makes them alive spiritually. But He also judges them for never responding to His truth (how many evil people heard the Gospel when they were kids but never wanted it?).

So God judges us but He also chooses us. I don't get how it can be both, but I can't get away from it in Scripture. A hundred years from now, I'll understand it and be satisfied that God was totally righteous the way He did things.



Wrong. Totally wrong on all counts.
You are basically saying that the ones that dont believe have reason to blame God for not choosing them, correct?
God chose all of us. But we have a CHOICE on whether or not to choose Him. To choose eternal life or to choose hell.


Pharaoh decided to harden his heart against the Egyptians and there came to be a point where God just started hardening his heart for him as that's what Pharaoh wanted.

I think this happens to us if we harden our heart towards God.



FolkSingerBlues -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/21/2008 9:26:42 AM)

Ask
Seek
Knock
Matthew 7:7

To do any of those requires a "reaching out" on our part. There is a decisive side to believing. I equate belief with love when it comes to God. Everything that God has taught me about love can be summed up in..."Love is a choice."

When it comes to belief in God, I think he TEACHES us to believe. Isn't that one benefit of the Holy Spirit?

Jesus equated faith with a seed. Something small that can grow into something big. I don't think out "great faith" is something we can credit to ourselves. I do think that the seed of faith is what we cast to God for him to care for and grow.

Perhaps that's too allegorical, but that's the best way I could explain it with half a cup of coffee at 8:30am.



abraxas -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/22/2008 7:55:08 AM)

For anyone who holds "having an accurate perception of reality" as a priority as they hammer out their opinions and beliefs, the idea of choosing a belief is very problematic.

After all, what basis besides the (perceived) truthfulness of a proposition can such a person "choose" to believe? And if the proposition satisfies the person's truth-assessment, what room left is there for choice?

It's very easy to get caught by the circular reasoning, "I choose to believe this because it's true", in fact I've seen it on this site several times. But that's because for someone who will only choose to believe something if they are convinced that it is true, it really isn't a choice to believe at all. By saying that tautology, they're admitting that prior to what they erroneously think is a choice, their mind was already persuaded of its truthfulness.

Maybe it's a choice to acknowledge, and it's definitely a choice to investigate, study, ask, ponder, act upon, etc. but the "decision" to believe was made by the brain on an involuntary level.



GraceBro -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/22/2008 9:56:39 PM)

quote:

The question is, can we choose what we believe, or is belief a function of experiences and circumstances?


Absolutely, we choose what to believe. As far as a Christians believe in Christ, the faith we express is our response to the truth that God has presented to us. The condition of man is that we are spiritually dead in sin at birth. The one and only provision God has provided is the restoration of life offered in Jesus Christ which is only made available through His resurrection.

We have to be careful about shaping our beliefs around experiences and circumstances. It is doing this which leads to certain things as good and bad omens and things like that. We can't discern truth by our experiences because they aren't universal in nature. God's truth applies to all mankind, at all times, throughout all history. We may have different experiences that God used to lead us to Christ. We call that our testimony. But, not all experiences are the same, thus you can't determine truth by them, much less put faith in them.

Grace and Peace



bob97 -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/22/2008 11:28:11 PM)

There were two boys who grew up listening to their father tell them about God and the things that God had accomplished in the father’s life.

Now we are told in the bible that faith comes by hearing and I agree with the truth of this. We have to understand what it is that we will believe in and unless someone informs us of the truth how will we know.

But it seems there was another component involved with the two boys because both sat at the knee of the father and heard the same message…one ended up believing and the other couldn’t find it within his heart to accept what the father was saying.

Abel’s offering to the LORD was accepted because it came from a heart of love and obedience’s but Cain’s offering was rejected because his heart was disobedience to God.

Cain wanted God to approve of him and love him but he was unable to change his heart and gain God’s approval even though God gave him the opportunity;

Genesis 4:6 - 7 (KJV) 6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Abel was drawn to God but Cain wasn’t.

Bob



abraxas -> RE: Can we choose to believe? (9/23/2008 3:14:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GraceBro

We have to be careful about shaping our beliefs around experiences and circumstances. It is doing this which leads to certain things as good and bad omens and things like that. We can't discern truth by our experiences because they aren't universal in nature. God's truth applies to all mankind, at all times, throughout all history. We may have different experiences that God used to lead us to Christ. We call that our testimony. But, not all experiences are the same, thus you can't determine truth by them, much less put faith in them.


The catch is that one's experiences and circumstances inevitably affect our views. I'm pretty sure that is what was suggested in the OP, not that we consciously refer to them in determining what we hold to be true, but that they influence us, even as we try to look at the world as impassively or as objectively as we can.



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