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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 7:22:11 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3417
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
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There is another side to this issue that we haven't brought up: women who will run roughshod over men who allow it. This is not at all what we are about. I lived with one such relationship, I have known several such relationships, and these are just as sick as are those in which the men do it to the women. There is usually extreme weakness on both parts of any relationship that allows these.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 7:47:07 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 9587
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse
I went to the Men Only board and read the feminism thread that everyone has been talking about..... All I could think was "Wow.... "
It was so completely disheartening to see that many Christian men, who acted like they believe women are the enemy. But, on the bright side, it made me say a prayer of gratitude for my very dear husband. It also made me think about my own views regarding feminism.... With those gentlemen in mind, I thought I would try to explain my (and my husband's) position on marriage......
I am a Feminist. I am a Christian.
I am not a lesbian. I do not own a pair of combat boots. I shave my legs daily and love peep-toe pumps. I wear makeup. I have never owned a bulky digital watch with a Velcro strap. I have never worn camouflage ANYTHING.
I expect my escort to open the door for me and pull out my chair when having dinner. I like a strong shoulder to hide behind when watching horror movies on the couch. I like to hold hands in public and get butterflies in my stomach when my guy calls me “baby”.
I hold a college degree and a high-stress job. I can accurately fire both a pistol and a rifle. I own more than my share of Beanie Babies. I love carnations, roses and sunflowers. I have a passion for gangster movies. I expect to be paid as much as my male colleagues for the same work.
I do NOT hate men. I think men were one of God’s best ideas. I do not want to BE a man. I enjoy being a woman and all things feminine. I am a daughter, a sister, a mother and a wife. But these things are not all that I am.
I love music, books, art, movies, theater and cartoons. I paint. I crochet. I quilt. I can also change a tire, the oil, plugs, distributor, and even a water pump. I can type. I believe if I can do the job, I deserve it. I cook a mean roast and my homemade fried chicken is to die for. I’ve been to the ballet and I’ve been white-water rafting. Both were enjoyable enough to do twice.
At our wedding, my guy didn't have a 'best man', he was the best man. He encouraged me to finish college when I wanted to quit. He rejoices in my achievements and holds my hand when I’m afraid. I gladly return the favor. He is not a wimp. Every morning finds him in the spare room doing bench-presses. Evenings will find him in the kitchen putting dinner together because of my long hours.
WE run our household. Together. Should we disagree, I defer to his judgment. And a time or two, he has been known to defer to mine. He has never told me I should submit to his judgment. I have never told him he should submit to mine. He seeks my opinion when he has a problem and he is the first person I run to when I need advice.
I have no desire to control my husband because my husband has no desire to control me. He is my husband - the head of our household - a gift from God the Father, especially for me. I submit to him because God tells me to, but my submission is an easy and natural thing because he does not lord himself over me; nor does he place himself in a superior position to me.
He looks at me with eyes full of love and gratitude. He touches me with tenderness and desire. He knows how to say ‘I love you’. He also knows how to say ‘I’m sorry’. He is not stingy with either phrase. He praises me to others.
I am his wife. His equal. His other half. More valuable in his eyes than his own life. I am not weaker. I am not ‘less than’. I am precious and fiercely protected. My will, my heart, my loyalty all belong to him. Not because he requires it - or expects it - but because never once did he demand it. He is honor, nobility, and strength.... He is my hero.
“It’s you and me ‘til the wheels fall off….” ~my husband
Dog. I knew my wife had a screen name but I did not know she had two. 
Seriously, you just described my 34 year marriage. And IMHO it has lasted that long because of the very things you mentioned.
Good post. It also brought tears to this man's eyes. Yes men cry also.
_____________________________
STRESS = The internal struggle created when the brain trys to over ride the heart's desire to tell off some jerk that really deserves to be told off.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 7:57:02 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3609
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
There is another side to this issue that we haven't brought up: women who will run roughshod over men who allow it. This is not at all what we are about. I lived with one such relationship, I have known several such relationships, and these are just as sick as are those in which the men do it to the women. There is usually extreme weakness on both parts of any relationship that allows these.
Not always!
Sometimes when one spouse is rebelliously disregarding their position within a marriage, the greatest strength is shown by a spouse who chooses to honor the role God gave them in marriage despite the sinful choices made by their spouse. Weakness is only shown when a spouse passively condones or enables these behaviors, but sometimes there is nothing a spouse can do to control the behavior of a sinful spouse.
There are limits, and I do think it is easier to define where those limits are for women and draw a line in the sand i.e. a woman should NEVER submit to a request that would cause her to sin against God. For men the limit is much more difficult to define i.e. when should a man stop self sacrificially loving his wife? How bad or abusive can a wife's behavior become before a husband is to stop putting the genuine needs of his wife before his own?
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 8:47:29 PM
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Kath
Posts: 16991
Joined: 2/28/2005
Status: online
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There has been some talk in this thread about a persons age and experience and how their responses may reflect that. We need to stop as it could be construed as harassing, a Terms of Service 6 violation.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Sincerely
Kath
Volunteer Assistant Administrator
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message as I am unable to discuss it further.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns allowing time for a response during normal business hours.
Posts which ignore this warning will be removed without warning and may result in other action in accordance with the Terms of Service.
Please review our FAQ for an explanation as to why one cannot confront a moderator directly.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 9:43:45 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3164
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
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quote:
you judging ALL feminism as RADICAL FEMINISM when it is not the same thing.
I keep repeating that the civil aspects of women's rights were all fine and dandy..what don't you understand about that? Its the social aspects of feminism..and yes they are all connected...that disturb me.
quote:
Feminism? Feminism was started by less than attractive women wanting a date.
Power. The only way a woman before feminism could attain power was by marrying a powerful man...who marries powerful men? Yep, pretty women. This made less than pretty women, jealous, so they started feminsim.
...and I stated in the other thread this came from a radio talk show host and was meant tongue in cheek.
quote:
HOWEVER, I do not believe that means we are weak minded.
Please quote me where I have said this or even intimated such a thing. Once again, as I stated before, I am colored not by my words but your preconception ( that is prejudice ) of them.
quote:
Pay attention to the end of it.
Have I in any way suggested, and please quote me where, that women were inferior in any way? Just one quote and I will never post in this or any other thread ever again.
Just one.
quote:
You don't see her sitting in the house cowtowing to her husband
Quote me.
quote:
I believe that women are equal in Gods' eyes to a man
Paste and copy where I said or suggested this is not true.
quote:
Good post, Kimmie!
..and completely in error....but I see agreement....interesting. Now I know why everytime I bring up Ephesians 5:22 it causes such an uproar. Feminism has made men the enemy....it seems even in the christian community.
Pretty sad really.
quote:
If believing that women should have exactly the same opportunities and freedoms as men have is being feminist then I guess I am one.
Does this include the rights to be promiscious, as a "lady" where I work stated? She argued that men can do this without social stigma...why not women too?
Once again, please quote me where I siad anything about equal employment or pay for women being wrong.
quote:
We should have the choice of working outside the home or not.
Feminism tells women to stay home is wrong. I wonder...does that really involve a...choice?
quote:
but the kind of leadership being advocated in the men's thread by a few resembles tyranny
That would be on them...not me.
Submission to a husband is for..the wife, not the husband. It defines what a wife needs, not what a husband needs. The same can be said for the husband loving his wife like Christ loves the church...its for the husband not the wife.
These define what each gender is...not some antiquated belief system. Women tend to like being in control and God is telling them this is not good for marriage...and men tend not to do love very well and that is not good for the marriage. Both are challenged to rise above their gender influences to follow God.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 9:53:20 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4407
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
If believing that women should have exactly the same opportunities and freedoms as men have is being feminist then I guess I am one.
Does this include the rights to be promiscious, as a "lady" where I work stated? She argued that men can do this without social stigma...why not women too?
I think the question should be why are men allowed to be promiscuous without social stigma? But since men have the right to act like morons in public, then yeah, I think women should have the right as well.
_____________________________
Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 10:08:07 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3609
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
you judging ALL feminism as RADICAL FEMINISM when it is not the same thing.
I keep repeating that the civil aspects of women's rights were all fine and dandy..what don't you understand about that? Its the social aspects of feminism..and yes they are all connected...that disturb me.
The quote in your post was in response to your earlier post that said,
"I say feminism is a bad thing and I get called a bigot. I get women mad at me. I wonder...do they read the same bible as I do? Men and women are different. How is outlined in the bible."
and here you say,
"Its the social aspects of feminism..and yes they are all connected...that disturb me."
Do you notice that you never once made any distinction between RADICAL feminism and any other kind of feminism?
You also didn't say that "the civil aspects of women's rights were all fine and dandy"; what you actually said was, "I did not say women should not get equal pay for equal work or that they should not work or vote or any of that stuff. That is beside the point. "
For many who have voiced their disagreement with your posts, it is not "beside the point", it is one of the issues with which they are concerned.
Basically you have made it 100% clear that phosadaud's comment was 100% correct; you are truly "judging ALL feminism as RADICAL FEMINISM when it is not the same thing."
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 11:20:38 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 11085
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
you judging ALL feminism as RADICAL FEMINISM when it is not the same thing.
I keep repeating that the civil aspects of women's rights were all fine and dandy..what don't you understand about that? Its the social aspects of feminism..and yes they are all connected...that disturb me.
Let me repeat: What you are describing is Radical Feminism. I don't think you understand that Radical Feminists ONLY speak for Radical Feminists. And MOST feminists are NOT Radical Feminists.
I'm not sure why you are so emotional about this, but I ask that you take a step back, take a few deep breaths and join the discussion. I think you will see that Feminism isn't at all what you think it is. And that most of us Feminists reject the Radical Feminism that you seem to think speak for ALL Feminists.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Classified Ads: "Government employer looking for candidates. Criminal background required."
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2008 7:34:47 AM
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Harvie
Posts: 1208
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: california
Status: offline
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I am a follower of Christ. I am a Stay-at-Home Wife to a wonderful Man of God. I am most certainly NOT a feminist.
I shave my legs when they get fuzzy. I rarely, if ever, wear makeup -- my wonderful DH assures me he likes me best without it. I don't own or wear any type of watch. I would wear camouflage Crocs if I could find them in my size -- especially if I could find cute Jibbitz to wear with them. I don't own a curling iron, blow dryer, or any other hair-related household appliances.
My goal is to not eat so much at dinner that I need to be pulled out my chair when finished-- though once was so wedged into a booth that we seriously considered needing a shoe-horn to dislodge me, lol! We don't watch horror movies. We occasionally hold hands in public -- but usually I need both hands free for shopping. My wonderful DH calls me "Kiddo" and I think that's OK because I call him "Smoochy." (He's a good kisser, what can I say? He doesn't open the car door for me -- he hurries inside so he can turn on the air conditioner to keep me from melting. When it's 110 in the shade, I don't need the door opened -- I need COLD AIR!
I hold two bachelor's degrees and a doctorate and I gave up my a high-stress job in 2005 when he asked me to stay home and "just be a wife." I love staying at home, focusing on "just being a wife" and creating a peaceful sanctuary for my wonderful DH. I've never fired a gun. I don't own any Beanie Babies. I love sunflowers, daffodils and gerbera daisies, but my wonderful DH knows not to buy me cut flowers since we have a housefull of cats who tend to eat them AND knock over vases. We don't watch gangster movies. When I worked, I didn't want "equal pay" ... I wanted MORE pay than my fellow co-workers, lol. (C'mon, who wants "equal" pay, anyway?) I'd also like to win the Mega-Lotto, but that's another issue.
I love pink. I love sparkly things. I love flowers and kitties and tweety birds and "nesting" in my home. I enjoy being a woman and all things feminine except cramps, bloating, PMS, pap smears and mammograms. I love being married. I am a follower of Christ, first... and a wife, second. In addition to being an intercessor, being my wonderful DH's helpmate is the highest calling I could ever hope to achieve. (And it's so much more rewarding than being a high-powered trial attorney!)
I love Tom Clancy books. I don't do ANYTHING even remotely crafty -- I don't paint, I don't knit, I don't crochet, I don't scrapbook. I've never changed a tire or the oil on my car. The only reason I have a kitchen is because it came with the house. I don't really cook, either. We've lived in this house over 5 years and I've never used the oven or the dishwasher. My wonderful DH keeps his chocolate and snack stash in the oven, actually. I like to bike. I like to swim. I like to garden. I like to decorate. And I'm very active in animal rescue. We foster dogs. We foster kittens. We feed all the birdies in the neighborhood.
At our wedding in 2003, my wonderful DH had a best man and I had a matron of honor. Our colors were purple and yellow and my flowers were daffodils and iris. I wore a long white wedding gown with a butt bow and a huge train .... and sparkly decorated Keds. I've never owned or worn high heals. My wonderful DH knows that I am long-since done with school with no real interest in going back. Heck, he lovingly and generously paid off my sadly-impressive student loan debt as an engagement present. He loves me. He encourages me. He respects me. He cherishes me. He supports me. He prays with me and for me. And I joyfully and willingly submit to him. He is the spiritual and moral and practical/actual leader of our home.
My wonderful DH has trustingly delegated to me the running of our household. When I need help, he cheerfully provides it (when he's able.) I keep the "home fires burning" when he is working, when he is deployed, when he is off flying missions for our country. I am a military wife married to a career pilot, and where he goes, I will follow. We've been married just over five years and he's been deployed five times already. I pray for him constantly, and appreciate it when others pray for him. When he's gone, everything around the house falls to me. If I can't do it, I get someone else to help me with it. (After all, that's what checkbooks are for, right?)
We endeavor to make decisions together -- especially in areas involving finances and practical issues. Frankly, he leaves the nuances and details of home decor, gardening, and kitties largely in my capable hands. We don't really have disagreements, but if we did -- he's the tie-breaker. I trust his judgement, his wisdom, and his common sense. After all, he married me, didn't he? He values my judgment, my education, my organizational skills, and my uncanny ability to multi-task. He doesn't mind that I'm afraid of moths.
I don't think I've ever heard him use the word "submit" in context of my behavior or role as his wife. He mainly hears me ranting about "submission" in the context of reading online forums. His responses, usually while smiling, is that maybe I should stay out of threads that get me so riled up. He is very wise, my wonderful DH. His smiles make my day. His voice calms me when I am scared. Snuggling and cuddling with him is one of my favorite things. We love to travel together. We love to play together. We love to pray together. He calls me or emails me as often as he can when he's gone, because he knows that I'm a noodle and I miss him.
I am his best friend. I am his wife. I am his helpmeet. I am his "wingman" and his co-pilot. (God is his commanding officer, lol!) I am cute as a button. I am smarter than the average bear. I am a silly noodle sometimes, but he loves me anyway. He is the head of our household. He is my husband. We are equally children of God, but our roles and callings and responsibilities are different.
_____________________________
 PRAISE THE LORD -- MY HUSBAND IS BACK FROM IRAQ
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2008 8:15:38 AM
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Memaw.
Posts: 2296
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Sunflower State
Status: offline
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Our views and opinions of the word feminist are colored by our own experiences.
Because of that, there will be differing definitions, that is why I said this in the WO OP.
quote:
I know in my experience, that word has always been used (hurled) as an insult, but lately I am wondering if there is a shift in my thinking or in the way the word is used.
Is it an insult anymore?
To some, who live in areas where radical/extreme feminist groups proudly stomp in the streets for their right to "kill their babies" or to have same sex "marriage" then of course the word is an insult to their sensibilities, but to those of us who do not embrace those radical views yet desire the acceptance of men as their equal in value the word is not something to be frightened of or foul.
To me it simply means I am a human being, made in the image of God and as His child (regardless of my gender) I am highly valued.
And because of that value that God has placed on me, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me!
_____________________________
<-- Squirt
A government big enough to give you everything you want,
is strong enough to take everything you have.
....Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2008 8:22:03 AM
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meaton6335
Posts: 9
Joined: 9/15/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
If believing that women should have exactly the same opportunities and freedoms as men have is being feminist then I guess I am one.
Does this include the rights to be promiscious, as a "lady" where I work stated? She argued that men can do this without social stigma...why not women too?
I think the question should be why are men allowed to be promiscuous without social stigma? But since men have the right to act like morons in public, then yeah, I think women should have the right as well.
Let me state the men's side of this argument very clearly. Men have no right to look, gaze, entertain, flirt, or be promiscious in any way except to our wives. Period. Anything less is sin because of its intent. Our thoughts are just as important as our actions and we should not be conformed to the world. So if the world says its OK, I am certain God's word says otherwise.
While I do not know what feminism is, I am disturbed by one thing that affects men. It is the degradation of the man/husband in television. Nearly every man on TV programs and commercials is a boob, lazy, addicted to sports, incapable of running the home, incapable of cooking and cleaning, incapable of having emotions, incapable of talking rationally. Is that how our country's women view men? What it says to children who are watching is my concern.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2008 8:49:20 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3164
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
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quote:
What you are describing is Radical Feminism.
I am not sure it is me that is redefining feminism.
Radical feminsim is those women from NOW who proclaimed all heterosexual relations between a man and woman is rape.
quote:
"Its the social aspects of feminism..and yes they are all connected
I said they were connected. It was you who filled in the blanks on HOW they were connected. Once again a prejorative statement.
They are connected in the same manner that David Dukes connected conservatism with racism. Start out with some nice sounding equal rights issues and then the real agenda of the social issues come out.
Like all liberal ideals, a seldom occurance was blown out of proportion to change society. Do you think no man was arrested for beating his wife before the 1960's? You do realize that abortion was a huge issue during these changing times looked upon as an issue of freedom and equal rights by the same people who were fighting for equal pay. It was all tied together.
I remember.
quote:
I thought that (non-radical) feminism advocated a choice...
...and promote one choice over the other. Stay at home moms feel this pressure, no doubt.
quote:
After all, I'm a feminist, and I stay at home.
Please define your brand of feminism.
quote:
Feminism supports whatever a woman feels she is called to do, certainly including staying at home to care for her family.
I disagree. So millions were spent and people went to jail and protested for equal pay and opportunity in the work force for you to stay at home and do what women had always done....????? That...is not logical.
quote:
It is the degradation of the man/husband in television.
Not just tv either.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2008 9:11:03 AM
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Sideways
Posts: 3934
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
I thought that (non-radical) feminism advocated a choice...
...and promote one choice over the other. Stay at home moms feel this pressure, no doubt.
And once again, you'd be wrong. I've felt no pressure from my feminist friends who work outside the home.
True feminism is supporting a woman's right to a higher education, pursuing the career of her choice and calling and the right to fair compensation for her work. True feminism is supporting those women who feel their calling is to be at home. Feminism is supporting a woman's right to own property, make financial transactions on her own and run a business on her own, if she is called to do so. Feminism is calling spousal abuse (on both sides of the aisle) a crime that should be prosecuted, and not just a "private family matter".
I love and respect my husband; I appreciate the chance to be at home with my son, and I am grateful from my college education and the years I spent as a full time mechanical engineer. When my children are older, I may return to that line of work, when it is right for me and my family.
_____________________________
This warranty does not include shark bites, bear attacks and children under five.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2008 9:38:06 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4407
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
"Its the social aspects of feminism..and yes they are all connected
I said they were connected. It was you who filled in the blanks on HOW they were connected. Once again a prejorative statement.
They are connected in the same manner that David Dukes connected conservatism with racism. Start out with some nice sounding equal rights issues and then the real agenda of the social issues come out.
Just like your definition of Christianity is connected to the definition of Christianity practiced by Fred Phelps and other radicals?
I can't understand why you insist that all women calling themselves feminists have to be radical, when I doubt you would protest alongside Phelps and his ilk.
_____________________________
Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2008 9:41:32 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3609
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
There should be no more of a stigma attached to a promiscuous woman than to a promiscuous man.
I almost agree with you; however, I would say:
There should be no LESS of a stigma attached to a promiscuous man than to a promiscuous woman."
and
"There should be far more stigma placed on promiscuity!"
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I thought that (non-radical) feminism advocated a choice...whether it be staying at home or working outside the home. 
