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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/15/2008 6:34:58 PM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 9306
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
Mrs. Wifey, someone else had the same reaction to that post you did. Here was my response.
I know they guy sounds a little cooky, but he's somewhere in his late teens or early 20's...knowing that, I took it with a grain of salt...and felt like telling the other men the same, but couldn't because we can't post in their folder. I think he's just a little idealistic yet, just as I was when I was that age. People in their late teens are very idealistic...it's their job.
I agree with you to a point; however, I think the issue goes beyond just being "idealistic", it reflect a poor understanding of Scripture. I am glad that men stepped up to address this with him. I hope that women would do the same in the women's folder when young women present a mistaken understanding of Scripture. While it is true that the "school of hard knocks" will cause many to face reality, that is not always the case. And by grace, if these young men and women are able to avoid some "hard knocks" because they were pointed in the right direction, then so much the better.
I agree. And it's no favor to anyone to never challenge their thinking.
Not only that but, one anecdotal success story doesn't mean that there is nothing amiss when a young man starts proclaiming his right to "lord over" someone. What if he never heard an opposing viewpoint? What if the only men who responded agreed with him? What of the young men and women who are reading? Should they never see an opposing post?
It's one thing when a married woman posts that she and her children are happy and healthy in a submissive role in her home. Who are we to disagree? But for someone who isn't married yet to tell everyone just how it is with his one verse of Scripture, that begs for a little healthy correction.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
New Blog
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/15/2008 6:42:33 PM
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Sideways
Posts: 3934
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
It's one thing when a married woman posts that she and her children are happy and healthy in a submissive role in her home. Who are we to disagree? But for someone who isn't married yet to tell everyone just how it is with his one verse of Scripture, that begs for a little healthy correction.
Indeed. My husband has often said that the most important things God wanted us to know are spoken over and over again in Scripture. But to take a handful of verses and to tell all Christians everywhere exactly how their marriage should work ... that's just begging for trouble, especially since one or two verses can interpreted many different ways.
The famous "keeper at home" verse, which is often the sole verse support used to explain why a wife should never work outside the home, was specifically written because the women of that town were giving Christianity a bad name by being gossips, busybodies and overall lazy. Obviously that's not a good witness at all, and they were ordered to shape up. It was not (in my opinion) ever intended to tell all married women everywhere that they should never have outside employment.
There are many verses instructing fathers to teach their children, but at the moment I only know one dad IRL, who is a SAH homeschooling father. His wife brings in the money, but his house is happy, his children are healthy and happy... who are we to tell him he's doing it wrong?
_____________________________
This warranty does not include shark bites, bear attacks and children under five.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 8:33:49 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3164
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: offline
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Is it wrong to recognise the leadership of your husband?
A christian man who loves his wife like Christ loves the church will not be a tyrant. Unfortunatly, modern day feminism paints a strong leader...male...in the household as being a tyrant....and it would never paint a woman as being such or that as a woman, she is better fit as the helpmate, councilor, nurturer than the leader and decision maker.
Go out and get a job, a career, a family, and all the PTA and soccor activities...uh huh. Our families are being destroyed and one reason is women who have fallen for the lies of feminists.
OK....CALM DOWN...and reread what I just write.
I did not say women should not get equal pay for equal work or that they should not work or vote or any of that stuff. That is beside the point.
I am saying that men and women are different...this difference is outlined in the bible...and celebrated. Women are not lesser....in fact you can make the point, biblically they are superior to men in at least one big area....men were created to NEED a helpmate...women were not.
I say feminism is a bad thing and I get called a bigot. I get women mad at me. I wonder...do they read the same bible as I do? Men and women are different. How is outlined in the bible.
What is so hard to understand?
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 9:12:21 AM
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phosadaud
Posts: 11085
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: online
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The problem is not what you believe regarding men & women but you judging ALL feminism as RADICAL FEMINISM when it is not the same thing. I'm assuming you are pro-life. Do you want to be judged as evil because some wacko's who call themselves pro-life bomb abortion clinics? Do you want to be judged as the root of all evil because you are Christian because of some idiot named Fred Phelps?
So, the next time you blame ALL feminists for the evil in the world, maybe you should understand that MOST feminists are not the RADICAL feminists (check it out, it's actually a branch of feminism).
~Signed a NON-Radical-Feminist~
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Classified Ads: "Government employer looking for candidates. Criminal background required."
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 9:27:31 AM
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Memaw.
Posts: 2296
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Sunflower State
Status: offline
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quote:
Feminism? Feminism was started by less than attractive women wanting a date.
Power. The only way a woman before feminism could attain power was by marrying a powerful man...who marries powerful men? Yep, pretty women. This made less than pretty women, jealous, so they started feminsim.
Since feminism and "women's rights" women have started dieing earlier. Our families are falling apart. Doesn't sound like equal rights with men did women much good...eh?
This is what you said Son.
Now to clarify a few things.
I am not a radical feminist.
I do not believe in abortion on demand, I do not believe there is any reason for abortion. PERIOD.
I do not believe women are superior to men, I believe we are the weaker vessel and it is mans' responsibility to cover us.
HOWEVER, I do not believe that means we are weak minded.
I believe I have the God given right to do as the Proverbs 31 woman.
quote:
Who can find a virtuous and capable wife?
She is more precious than rubies.
11 Her husband can trust her,
and she will greatly enrich his life.
12 She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life.
13 She finds wool and flax
and busily spins it.
14 She is like a merchant’s ship,
bringing her food from afar.
15 She gets up before dawn to prepare breakfast for her household
and plan the day’s work for her servant girls.
16 She goes to inspect a field and buys it;
with her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17 She is energetic and strong,
a hard worker.
18 She makes sure her dealings are profitable;
her lamp burns late into the night.
19 Her hands are busy spinning thread,
her fingers twisting fiber.
20 She extends a helping hand to the poor
and opens her arms to the needy.
21 She has no fear of winter for her household,
for everyone has warm clothes.
22 She makes her own bedspreads.
She dresses in fine linen and purple gowns.
23 Her husband is well known at the city gates,
where he sits with the other civic leaders.
24 She makes belted linen garments
and sashes to sell to the merchants.
25 She is clothed with strength and dignity,
and she laughs without fear of the future.
26 When she speaks, her words are wise,
and she gives instructions with kindness.
27 She carefully watches everything in her household
and suffers nothing from laziness.
28 Her children stand and bless her.
Her husband praises her:
29 “There are many virtuous and capable women in the world,
but you surpass them all!”
Pay attention to the end of it.
quote:
30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty does not last;
but a woman who fears the Lord will be greatly praised.
31 Reward her for all she has done.
Let her deeds publicly declare her praise.
This Biblical outline of a woman is what I strive to attain.
You don't see her sitting in the house cowtowing to her husband, you don't see him "lording" over her, you see her working hard outside the home, going near and far to gather for her family.
You see her husband praising her!
I have never and will never believe or say that a woman is to be over her husband, I have seen my husband work, I do not want his job, I can not do his job. I enjoy my place, which is providing for my family as well.
I believe that women are equal in Gods' eyes to a man, He does not love one less than the other or think of one greater than the other.
If we are equally valuable in Gods eyes, then why can't we be equally valuable in each others eyes?
_____________________________
<-- Squirt
A government big enough to give you everything you want,
is strong enough to take everything you have.
....Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 10:51:00 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3609
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
Is it wrong to recognise the leadership of your husband?
A christian man who loves his wife like Christ loves the church will not be a tyrant. Unfortunatly, modern day feminism paints a strong leader...male...in the household as being a tyrant....and it would never paint a woman as being such or that as a woman, she is better fit as the helpmate, councilor, nurturer than the leader and decision maker.
You start off your post by asking "Is it wrong to recognize the leadership of your husband?", but I don't think that anyone here [recently] has challenged the idea that men should demonstrate leadership in a Christian home, or that wives should submit themselves to the leadership of their husband. Yes a man can be a strong leader without being a tyrant, but the kind of leadership being advocated in the men's thread by a few resembles tyranny much more than it resembles strong Christian leadership. The marriages I have seen that most genuinely reflect the kind of strong leadership that men are called to exercise in marriage, seldom (if ever) exercise the authority of that position to override the expressed desires of their wives. Most of these marriages go for decades without ever having the need for a conflict to be resolved by having a wife acquiesce to the choice her husband has made.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 11:07:47 AM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 953
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: offline
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Ok... having looked at all the threads.... I am coming out of lurk mode for this...
Randy....
I do not consider myself a "feminist", but nor can I allow myself to be a doormat (been there done that)
In my 1st marriage, I was married to a "christian" man... He resembled Nabal (Abigail's 1st husband) in 1 Samuel. He did foolish things, and I submitted and allowed him to do so. What ensued was a relationship where everything bad and anything that made him unhappy was my fault.... He was never refused anything and as a result of my not enforcing boundaries, he proceeded to have affairs (sexual) multiple times during the course of our marriage... He was caught, seemed repentant and forgiven.. but he did not change. Nor was he given any reason to stray - he was never refused. He was able to come and go as he pleased, the only responsibilities he had was to help support the family (I worked full time as well) - which is what ultimately he decided that made him "miserable". He could not live a "single" live with a wife and 3 kids. He decided to leave and find another woman that would make him "happy".
I have come to realize that it is NOT good for me to submit to my husband in everything - God showed me where I needed to stand firm in what He told me and what I believed about myself.
God did not restore that relationship, what He did do, in His infinite mercy is replace it. My husband now is a Christian man, imperfect, but willing to love me and meet my needs through service. He listens to my concerns, realizes that SOMETIMES I am right.... I am learning to speak up, communicate clearly and listen without preconceived bias as to what I *think* he is trying to say. I can freely submit to this man, because he is modeling Christ to me... and that is the difference.
Now I have read the posts where you feel attacked.... all I ask you to do is to listen to what the men are ACTUALLY trying to tell you.... not what you PERCEIVE them to be saying.
I see how they can feel (I felt it as well) that the posts were denigrating and offensive.... If I acted on what I perceived you to be saying - I would sense that... BUT I do see that you are young (and that's ok)..... Some of the men are saying that they agree to a point, but your presentation is off.... they are trying to tell you to put the shovel down.... (as most of them are married, they learned that lesson in due course  ).
I cannot dictate to anyone how they should act in the course of their own marriage - it is NOT one size fits all... All I can do is tell them to seek God's word and pray for His guidance on how His word is applied in their own lives.
I have worked inside and outside the home... I am allowed the freedom now to work fulltime in the home (and being as we are expecting #6 into our blended family - thanks God  ) I assure you it IS a full-time and rewarding experience... although the "pay" could be better j/k
.
All I can tell you is that in all things God is good and faithful - even to the ignorant and foolish (like me - I do not have it right yet).
_____________________________
"Ya mom, I got to see "Some Italian guy" in concert..."
Some Italian guy? (Carman) :p
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 12:03:51 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 9587
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Restored_Heart
Ok... having looked at all the threads.... I am coming out of lurk mode for this...
Randy....
I do not consider myself a "feminist", but nor can I allow myself to be a doormat (been there done that)
In my 1st marriage, I was married to a "christian" man... He resembled Nabal (Abigail's 1st husband) in 1 Samuel. He did foolish things, and I submitted and allowed him to do so. What ensued was a relationship where everything bad and anything that made him unhappy was my fault.... He was never refused anything and as a result of my not enforcing boundaries, he proceeded to have affairs (sexual) multiple times during the course of our marriage... He was caught, seemed repentant and forgiven.. but he did not change. Nor was he given any reason to stray - he was never refused. He was able to come and go as he pleased, the only responsibilities he had was to help support the family (I worked full time as well) - which is what ultimately he decided that made him "miserable". He could not live a "single" live with a wife and 3 kids. He decided to leave and find another woman that would make him "happy".
I have come to realize that it is NOT good for me to submit to my husband in everything - God showed me where I needed to stand firm in what He told me and what I believed about myself.
God did not restore that relationship, what He did do, in His infinite mercy is replace it. My husband now is a Christian man, imperfect, but willing to love me and meet my needs through service. He listens to my concerns, realizes that SOMETIMES I am right.... I am learning to speak up, communicate clearly and listen without preconceived bias as to what I *think* he is trying to say. I can freely submit to this man, because he is modeling Christ to me... and that is the difference.
Now I have read the posts where you feel attacked.... all I ask you to do is to listen to what the men are ACTUALLY trying to tell you.... not what you PERCEIVE them to be saying.
I see how they can feel (I felt it as well) that the posts were denigrating and offensive.... If I acted on what I perceived you to be saying - I would sense that... BUT I do see that you are young (and that's ok)..... Some of the men are saying that they agree to a point, but your presentation is off.... they are trying to tell you to put the shovel down.... (as most of them are married, they learned that lesson in due course ).
I cannot dictate to anyone how they should act in the course of their own marriage - it is NOT one size fits all... All I can do is tell them to seek God's word and pray for His guidance on how His word is applied in their own lives.
I have worked inside and outside the home... I am allowed the freedom now to work fulltime in the home (and being as we are expecting #6 into our blended family - thanks God ) I assure you it IS a full-time and rewarding experience... although the "pay" could be better j/k
.
All I can tell you is that in all things God is good and faithful - even to the ignorant and foolish (like me - I do not have it right yet).
A most excellent post. Thanks for making it.
_____________________________
STRESS = The internal struggle created when the brain trys to over ride the heart's desire to tell off some jerk that really deserves to be told off.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 12:19:21 PM
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sisrev
Posts: 855
Joined: 8/7/2006
From: The South, ya'll
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
(I LOVE MY)Pro-Life-Man-Loving-God-Honoring-Thankful-For-the-Right-to-Vote-and-Freedom-to-Do-the-Job-God-Called-Me-to-Whether-Men-Like-it-or-Not Feminist
AWWWWWWW! She is one blessed woman!
_____________________________
My new blog, A Virtuous Woman
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 12:24:54 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 9587
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
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The funny part is I do believe the man is the head of the household. I do believe the man is the spiritual leader of his house. What some are not seeing is the comparison to Jesus and the church. That is what we as men are supposed to strive for. Jesus is the head of the church and the church's spiritual leader. However, he does so by example not by force. He is the Lord of the Church but He did and does not Lord over it. For example, it is perfectly acceptable for me to get up on Sunday morning and say come on it's time for US to go to church. In that I am leading by example. It is not acceptable for me to say Y'all get up and go to church. Both would probably get my family to church but which would do so in the correct way.
_____________________________
STRESS = The internal struggle created when the brain trys to over ride the heart's desire to tell off some jerk that really deserves to be told off.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 12:26:09 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 9587
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sisrev
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
(I LOVE MY)Pro-Life-Man-Loving-God-Honoring-Thankful-For-the-Right-to-Vote-and-Freedom-to-Do-the-Job-God-Called-Me-to-Whether-Men-Like-it-or-Not Feminist
AWWWWWWW! She is one blessed woman!
Thank you for the compliment sisrev but it is I who am blessed.
_____________________________
STRESS = The internal struggle created when the brain trys to over ride the heart's desire to tell off some jerk that really deserves to be told off.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 1:28:13 PM
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Memaw.
Posts: 2296
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Sunflower State
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
The funny part is I do believe the man is the head of the household. I do believe the man is the spiritual leader of his house. What some are not seeing is the comparison to Jesus and the church. That is what we as men are supposed to strive for. Jesus is the head of the church and the church's spiritual leader. However, he does so by example not by force. He is the Lord of the Church but He did and does not Lord over it. For example, it is perfectly acceptable for me to get up on Sunday morning and say come on it's time for US to go to church. In that I am leading by example. It is not acceptable for me to say Y'all get up and go to church. Both would probably get my family to church but which would do so in the correct way.
Exactly!!
When a man is following after the heart of God, his wife will want nothing other than to follow him.
I don't want to usurp any mans' authority, if that man is following the leading of Christ.
I don't want to take anything away from men, I just want men to realize we too have VALUE.
Many women fought for our right to vote, to own land, to do things that a hundred years ago was unheard of.
It would be a disservice to those women (some of whom were thrown into jails, beaten, and "mishandled") to sit idly by and be considered weak and emotionally unstable by some men who have a "god complex".
_____________________________
<-- Squirt
A government big enough to give you everything you want,
is strong enough to take everything you have.
....Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 1:48:37 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 4871
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
The funny part is I do believe the man is the head of the household. I do believe the man is the spiritual leader of his house. What some are not seeing is the comparison to Jesus and the church. That is what we as men are supposed to strive for. Jesus is the head of the church and the church's spiritual leader. However, he does so by example not by force. He is the Lord of the Church but He did and does not Lord over it. For example, it is perfectly acceptable for me to get up on Sunday morning and say come on it's time for US to go to church. In that I am leading by example. It is not acceptable for me to say Y'all get up and go to church. Both would probably get my family to church but which would do so in the correct way.
Yup.
Great post, it needs stars.
_____________________________
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 3:44:22 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 11085
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: online
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Exactly! So many now and throughout much of history view/viewed man being the head as meaning men are to order women around, handle everything, make all the decisions, etc. This has taken various forms throughout history. At times, it was so extreme as to view women as LITERALLY incapable of making decisions or using wisdom. Scripture doesn't say that - nor does it even imply that. Men and women are BOTH created in God's image. Being the head is not a position (as in CEO or CFO or General) so much as a grave responsibility. A leader isn't a leader by barking out orders and making all the decisions. A leader is a leader because they are worthy to be followed.
Jesus wasn't followed because He was making decisions for everyone and barking out orders. He was followed because He was worthy to be followed. So, when He told people "Follow Me!", they didn't follow because they thought He was some mighty General who HAD to be obeyed. They followed because He was worthy of that following.
Truth be told, men have very big shoes to wear in a family. And let's face it, for good or for bad, how a man leads his family is critical. If he doesn't have a servant's heart, it can tear a family to pieces. If he isn't following the Lord, he forces his wife to assume the headship position. If he is selfish, his family will resent him. If he is harsh, his family will fear him and become bitter. If he is godly - he will grow His family in the Lord.
The fact is, it's not about control. Jesus didn't control His disciples. He led them into being who God intended them to be - Men of God! If a husband is to be the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church, it's also not about control. He should be leading them into being who God intended them to be - women designed for a purpose and that purpose will be different for each one: career wise, a mother or not a mother, different ministries, different gifts, different callings. You men aren't charged with telling a woman where she "belongs" according to what you want or what society says. You are charged with leading her to discover God's calling for her life and helping give her the wings to fly! Wherever that may be!
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Classified Ads: "Government employer looking for candidates. Criminal background required."
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 4:11:09 PM
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landabee
Posts: 2760
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Central Florida
Status: offline
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*****wild applause*****
_____________________________
"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2008 5:32:41 PM
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CheshireMuse
Posts: 95
Joined: 8/23/2007
Status: offline
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I went to the Men Only board and read the feminism thread that everyone has been talking about..... All I could think was "Wow.... "
It was so completely disheartening to see that many Christian men, who acted like they believe women are the enemy. But, on the bright side, it made me say a prayer of gratitude for my very dear husband. It also made me think about my own views regarding feminism.... With those gentlemen in mind, I thought I would try to explain my (and my husband's) position on marriage......
I am a Feminist. I am a Christian.
I am not a lesbian. I do not own a pair of combat boots. I shave my legs daily and love peep-toe pumps. I wear makeup. I have never owned a bulky digital watch with a Velcro strap. I have never worn camouflage ANYTHING.
I expect my escort to open the door for me and pull out my chair when having dinner. I like a strong shoulder to hide behind when watching horror movies on the couch. I like to hold hands in public and get butterflies in my stomach when my guy calls me “baby”.
I hold a college degree and a high-stress job. I can accurately fire both a pistol and a rifle. I own more than my share of Beanie Babies. I love carnations, roses and sunflowers. I have a passion for gangster movies. I expect to be paid as much as my male colleagues for the same work.
I do NOT hate men. I think men were one of God’s best ideas. I do not want to BE a man. I enjoy being a woman and all things feminine. I am a daughter, a sister, a mother and a wife. But these things are not all that I am.
I love music, books, art, movies, theater and cartoons. I paint. I crochet. I quilt. I can also change a tire, the oil, plugs, distributor, and even a water pump. I can type. I believe if I can do the job, I deserve it. I cook a mean roast and my homemade fried chicken is to die for. I’ve been to the ballet and I’ve been white-water rafting. Both were enjoyable enough to do twice.
At our wedding, my guy didn't have a 'best man', he was the best man. He encouraged me to finish college when I wanted to quit. He rejoices in my achievements and holds my hand when I’m afraid. I gladly return the favor. He is not a wimp. Every morning finds him in the spare room doing bench-presses. Evenings will find him in the kitchen putting dinner together because of my long hours.
WE run our household. Together. Should we disagree, I defer to his judgment. And a time or two, he has been known to defer to mine. He has never told me I should submit to his judgment. I have never told him he should submit to mine. He seeks my opinion when he has a problem and he is the first person I run to when I need advice.
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