Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"?

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solomonsprayer -> Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (9/13/2008 11:25:49 AM)
Is the United States potentially Mystery Babylon - the second Babylon in the Bible, during the end times that gets destroyed. ...If I am not mistaken, it is described as a dominant world power that is a fallen Christian nation (a Christian nation at one time, but one that has been corrupted), one based heavily on commerce/trade (such as capitalism), with people of a multitude of languages and backgrounds (we have those in the U.S. now in the form of racial minorities), surrounded by waters (we have oceans on three sides of our country), and one that is proud.... I knowsome have argued it was Rome, because of the same qualities and also because of the description of it sitting on seven hills, but there is also argument it has not yet happend and Mystery Babylon remains to be seen and destroyed. Is the U.S. a possibility?

cow451 -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (9/13/2008 11:36:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: solomonsprayer Is the United States potentially Mystery Babylon - the second Babylon in the Bible, during the end times that gets destroyed. ...If I am not mistaken, it is described as a dominant world power that is a fallen Christian nation (a Christian nation at one time, but one that has been corrupted), one based heavily on commerce/trade (such as capitalism), with people of a multitude of languages and backgrounds (we have those in the U.S. now in the form of racial minorities), surrounded by waters (we have oceans on three sides of our country), and one that is proud.... I knowsome have argued it was Rome, because of the same qualities and also because of the description of it sitting on seven hills, but there is also argument it has not yet happend and Mystery Babylon remains to be seen and destroyed. Is the U.S. a possibility? Scriptural basis?

bettymackII -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (9/13/2008 12:07:46 PM)
cow451= good question! IF it ain't in the Bible it ain't so!

bob97 -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (9/13/2008 10:33:10 PM)
Good grief... Bob

cog41 -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (9/14/2008 6:32:05 PM)
quote: Good grief... Bob, you've done it again..

bob97 -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (9/14/2008 9:57:02 PM)
quote: Bob, you've done it again.. Sorry... Bob

FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (9/15/2008 7:11:56 AM)
My initial, and by extension the strongest, opinion is no. Why? Because it is my contention that Babylon is Babylon. The person most evangelicals would refer to as the Antichrist bears many monikers throughout the Bible such as "The Assyrian", "the prince who is to come", "the worthless shepherd", etc. However, one of the common themes through much of the Bible is the opposition of Israel by Babylon. As one theologian put it, the Bible is God's version of the "Tale of Two Cities". I would also say that if you are going to say that "Mystery, Babylon" is symbolic, the waters mentioned would also be symbolic. It should also be noted that the term "Harlot" does not necessarily imply that she is a formerly Christian nation. That type of connotation is appropriate in Hosea and elsewhere where it is specifically ascribed to a nation that has fallen away... but to then make it a universal application is a misnomer. Basically, she is a harlot... meaning she has many lovers (many gods, perhaps?). However, this is in stark contrast to the Bride of Christ mentioned in chapters 19-21. That contrast would lead me to say that Mystery Babylon is something akin to a false version of the Bride of Christ (aka, the Church... the collection of saints). Contrast being a very valid literary device used often by Jewish writers, it would seem to make sense. That being said, lets take a look at the specifics you listed... quote: If I am not mistaken, it is described as a dominant world power that is a fallen Christian nation (a Christian nation at one time, but one that has been corrupted), I wouldn't agree with that view of the significance of the Harlot. Taking a use of a sign in one place to prove how it is used in another place isn't a valid use of scripture. Example? Israel is refered to as a Harlot in Hosea, yet in Revelation 12 is a woman giving birth who is then sheltered by God in the desert. Speaking of which, Jesus' mother was no harlot. We have to look at the use of a sign in it's particular context to find the actual meaning of it. quote: one based heavily on commerce/trade (such as capitalism), All that passage means is that Babylon has a lot of money and a big corner on the trade market. There have been a lot of empires that match that description. However, have you seen the value of the dollar recently? China and Europe would actually make better matches of this description at present than the US. quote: with people of a multitude of languages and backgrounds (we have those in the U.S. now in the form of racial minorities) So did Germany during WWII. So do India and China. So did the USSR. So did Rome, Persia, Greece, Babylon, Egypt, Ottoman, Byzantium and the Huns. Honestly, racial minorities and diverse languages are symptomatic of (A) being a large nation and (B) living in an increasingly globalized society. quote: surrounded by waters (we have oceans on three sides of our country), Revelation 17:15 tells us that the waters aren't literal. It says that the waters are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. The Harlot is going to be a multinational creature, not just a multi-ethnic one. quote: and one that is proud.... That is very specific of no one in particular... pick a nation with strong nationalistic feelings, and you will find a lot of pride. quote: Is the U.S. a possibility? Based on the above list? Not really. Adam

earthless -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (9/15/2008 9:05:09 AM)
Great post, Adam. God bless.

tracydolls -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (9/15/2008 10:01:15 AM)
YEs, not only do we fit the descriptions, richest, arrrogant, etc. We control the ANCIENT city of Babylon. It's Basra in Iraq. Rev 18:4 Is the World Trade Center coming down. Babylon is f a l l i n g

WesP -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (9/15/2008 3:25:26 PM)
quote: We control the ANCIENT city of Babylon. It's Basra in Iraq. Only for a moment. Remember, Obama is going to immediately get us out of that huge mistake. [8D]

MrFribbles -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (9/15/2008 7:46:06 PM)
In my opinion (and with most any end-times topic, it is of course only an opinion), Babylon does not represent a single nation, city, person, etc., but rather a corrupt world system. It does not, in my opinion, represent America - though America may be contained in it. Then again, America may be nothing more than pages in a history book when Christ returns.

br0k3nsp1r1t2 -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (9/29/2008 1:29:08 AM)
Babylon of Daniel 1-5 is the same geographical location as Genesis10. Babylon of Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 17-18 is same location as Genesis 10. The geography of Bablyon now includes modern Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Dubai, Arab Emirates, and Kuwait. Iran and Iraq are in the middle of this vast region! The 'many waters' include the Mediterranean Sea, Red Sea, Gulf of Aqaba, Gulf of Suez, Indian Ocean, Arabian Sea, Gulf of Aden, Gulf of Oman, Persian Gulf, Caspian Sea, and Black Sea. The seven mountains are Taurus, Lebanon, Hejaz, Asir, Hadramawt, Zagros, and Elburz mountains. Babylon is a byword in Scripture for ruthless, godless government. Gog is an allied confederation (Ezek 38:6-7) and the organizing mastermind of the anti-God 'Mystery Bablyon' in Revelation 14:8 and 17:1-18:24. Gog is a ten nation/region confederacy. The geographical region of Ezekiel 38-39 includes Eastern and Western Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and Pakistan. Isn't it interesting that Putin is seeking alliances with Middle Eastern nations (such as Iran) while at the same time Ahmadenijad desires to annihilate Israel? I wonder if the 12th Imam is the antichrist? Looks to me like the building blocks are in motion for the War of Gog and Magog to come to pass - possibly in my lifetime!

laughing4lily -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (9/29/2008 5:03:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WesP quote: We control the ANCIENT city of Babylon. It's Basra in Iraq. Only for a moment. Remember, Obama is going to immediately get us out of that huge mistake. [8D] Um, not to be mean, but I wouldn't count on it. Just because a politician says he'll bring change doesn't necessarily mean he will. Of course, judging from the smile at the end you might actually be joking. [8D] And I wouldn't necessarily call it a mistake, more like a "Gee, it seemed like a GREAT idea at the time!" If one were after the title "World's Most Beloved Human" occupying the ancient city of Babylon during the so called 'End Times' would be the last thing on their list. But since when did world leaders ever really cared about that! If this comment offends in any way or doesn't make sense, blame it on my insomnia, and the fact that I just spent 4 hours skimming through details about the Rapture in another thread. -___- ~Lily~ head hits keyboard

vew -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (9/29/2008 10:23:57 PM)
In the symbolism of Revelation, Babylon the Great is referred to as a "great city", a "kingdom" that rules other kings. (Rev. 17:18) Like a city, it would have many organizations within it; an dlike a kingdom that includes other kings in its domain, it would be international in scope. It is described as having relations with political rulers and contributing much to the wealth of men in commerce, while itself being a third element" and a persecutor of "prophets and of holy ones." Rev. 18:2; 9-17, 24. ancient Babylon was outstandingly noted for its religion and its defiance of God. Gen. 10:8-10; Dan. 5:22, 23: An ancient cuneiform inscription reads: "Altogether there are in Bablyon 53 temples of the chief gods, 55 chapels of Marduk, 300 chapels fo rthe earthly deities, 600 for the heavenly deities, 180 altars fot he goddess Ishtar, 180 for the gods Nergal and Adad and 12 other altars for different gods." Quoted from The Bible as History (New York, 1964), W. Keller, p.301 The Encyclopedia Amricana comments: "Sumerian civilizaion (which was part of Babylonia) was dominated by priests; at the head of the state was the lugal (literally "great man"), the representative of the gods." (1977), Vol. 3, p.9. Reasonably, therefore, Babylon the Great as referred to in Revelation is religious. Being like a city and an empire,, it is not limited to one religious group but includes all religions that are in opposition to the true God. Ancient Babylonian religious concepts and practices are found in religions worldwide. Egypt, Persia, and Greece felt the influence of the Babylonian religion...The strong admixture of Semitic elements both in early Greek mythology and in Grecian cults is now so generally admitted by scholars as to require no further comment. These Semitic element are to a large extent more specifically Bablyonian.l"---THE RELIGION OF bABYLONIA AND ASSYRIA (Boston, 1898, M. Jastrow, Jr., PP. 699,700. Their gods: There were triads of gods. (Babylonian and Assyrian Religion, Norman, Okla.; 1963, W.H. Hooke, pp.14-40) "The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases of divine persoons taught by the Christian Churches....This Greek philosopher''s(Plato's) conception of the divine trinity ...can be found in all the ancient (pagan ) religions." Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel (Paris, 1865-1970), edited y M. Lachatre, vol. 2, p.1467. Use of Images. Belief regarding the death. Immortality of the soul copied not from the early Christians but from ancient pagan Babylonish religions. THE RELIGION OF BABYLONIA AND aSSYRIA, P. 556. Babylon the Great is like an immoral harlot, one living in shameless luxery." Rev. 17:1-5; Rev 18:7. Is it not true that the dominant religious organizations have made it a practice to consort with political rulers for power and material gain, though this has resulted in suffering for the common people? Is it not also true that their higher clergy live in luxury, even though many of the people to whom they should minister may be impoverished? Why can religions that profess to be Chriatian properly be viewed as a part of Babylon the Great, along with those who know nothing of the God of the Bible? James 4:4: "Adulteresses, do you not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friens=d of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God." (So, though they know what the Bible says about God, they make themselves his enemies if they choose friendship withthe world by imitating its ways.) 2 Cor. 4:4; 11:14,15: "The god of this system of things has blinded the inds of the unbelievers,, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who id the image of God, might not shine thrrough." Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according tho theri works." Matthew.7:21-23 (read) Thus the urgent message to get out of her "If you don not want to share in her sins and receive part of her plagues." VEW

ta_mosquito -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (9/29/2008 11:11:08 PM)
MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE vew - Welcome to Forums! We do not require that you be an orthodox Christian to be a member of the site, but we do require that you respect our Terms of Service, especially TOS #15. You may want to read our Range of Doctrine and our Statement of Faith. Repeated statements against these documents and TOS 15 will result in disciplinary action against your account here. Thank you! Tricia Forums Moderator Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat. Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns. Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.

useddelorian -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (9/30/2008 1:04:57 AM)
I think that God, and consequently the Word of God, is bigger than any of us can comprehend fully in an infinite time-line. I'm also of the opinion that you can more or less take the Bible at a literal meaning unless it implies otherwise by mentioning something other than a literal meaning is implied. Example: The Gospels mentioning that Jesus was speaking in metaphor/parable on certain occasions. Can anyone show me a specific instance in the Bible that implies that you should think of "Babylon" spiritually/figuratively rather than literally? The trouble with assuming things can be summed up in a spiritual way is that you have no bearing on where to stop. Was Jesus' atoning death on the cross and resurrection just a spiritual or figurative atonement and death? Were God's promises to Israel figurative or spiritual, and was Israel a spiritual Israel? To a long-time believer questions like these may sound asinine and over-worked, but these are very real concerns to anyone who looks at this from a logical point-of-view. I'm a relatively new Christian, and questions like these trouble me. It seems so easy to be led off of the "straight and narrow path" by all the doctrines and views you can find in popular culture. I think we should just let the Bible say what it has to say. Am I wrong here? In Christ, Jeremy

laughing4lily -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (9/30/2008 2:25:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: useddelorian I think that God, and consequently the Word of God, is bigger than any of us can comprehend fully in an infinite time-line. I'm also of the opinion that you can more or less take the Bible at a literal meaning unless it implies otherwise by mentioning something other than a literal meaning is implied. Example: The Gospels mentioning that Jesus was speaking in metaphor/parable on certain occasions. Can anyone show me a specific instance in the Bible that implies that you should think of "Babylon" spiritually/figuratively rather than literally? The trouble with assuming things can be summed up in a spiritual way is that you have no bearing on where to stop. Was Jesus' atoning death on the cross and resurrection just a spiritual or figurative atonement and death? Were God's promises to Israel figurative or spiritual, and was Israel a spiritual Israel? To a long-time believer questions like these may sound asinine and over-worked, but these are very real concerns to anyone who looks at this from a logical point-of-view. I'm a relatively new Christian, and questions like these trouble me. It seems so easy to be led off of the "straight and narrow path" by all the doctrines and views you can find in popular culture. I think we should just let the Bible say what it has to say. Am I wrong here? In Christ, Jeremy I don't believe your wrong. Those are very good questions, and for me a life-long believer I don't get tired of asking such questions. I too wonder whether its figurative or literal, and it encourages me to constantly search for the truth. This search always seems to reaffirm my faith. My father taught me to never take anything said in the bible too literally. He is a man of science but at the same time a man of God. The two always went hand-in-hand when I was growing up, and from this I learned that just because you believe in something unseen doesn't mean you have to throw logic out the window. Logic is a gift from your Creator and it shouldn't be wasted. I like to quote what a friend of mine said in conversation in an art class I took a few years ago: "Maybe science is God's way of telling us to not be afraid." But my own personal favorite is, "God gave you a brain, use it!!!" These are just my personal thoughts. Sorry if I got off-topic. I just felt compelled to respond to Jeremy's post. ~Lily~

SwordLady -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (9/30/2008 3:08:00 AM)
quote: Original: vew In the symbolism of Revelation, Babylon the Great is referred to as a "great city", a "kingdom" that rules other kings. (Rev. 17:18) Like a city, it would have many organizations within it; an dlike a kingdom that includes other kings in its domain, it would be international in scope. It is described as having relations with political rulers and contributing much to the wealth of men in commerce, while itself being a third element" and a persecutor of "prophets and of holy ones." Rev. 18:2; 9-17, 24. ancient Babylon was outstandingly noted for its religion and its defiance of God. Gen. 10:8-10; Dan. 5:22, 23: An ancient cuneiform inscription reads: "Altogether there are in Bablyon 53 temples of the chief gods, 55 chapels of Marduk, 300 chapels fo rthe earthly deities, 600 for the heavenly deities, 180 altars fot he goddess Ishtar, 180 for the gods Nergal and Adad and 12 other altars for different gods." Quoted from The Bible as History (New York, 1964), W. Keller, p.301 The Encyclopedia Amricana comments: "Sumerian civilizaion (which was part of Babylonia) was dominated by priests; at the head of the state was the lugal (literally "great man"), the representative of the gods." (1977), Vol. 3, p.9. Reasonably, therefore, Babylon the Great as referred to in Revelation is religious. Being like a city and an empire,, it is not limited to one religious group but includes all religions that are in opposition to the true God. Ancient Babylonian religious concepts and practices are found in religions worldwide. Egypt, Persia, and Greece felt the influence of the Babylonian religion...The strong admixture of Semitic elements both in early Greek mythology and in Grecian cults is now so generally admitted by scholars as to require no further comment. These Semitic element are to a large extent more specifically Bablyonian.l"---THE RELIGION OF bABYLONIA AND ASSYRIA (Boston, 1898, M. Jastrow, Jr., PP. 699,700. Their gods: There were triads of gods. (Babylonian and Assyrian Religion, Norman, Okla.; 1963, W.H. Hooke, pp.14-40) "The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases of divine persoons taught by the Christian Churches....This Greek philosopher''s(Plato's) conception of the divine trinity ...can be found in all the ancient (pagan ) religions." Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel (Paris, 1865-1970), edited y M. Lachatre, vol. 2, p.1467. Use of Images. Belief regarding the death. Immortality of the soul copied not from the early Christians but from ancient pagan Babylonish religions. THE RELIGION OF BABYLONIA AND aSSYRIA, P. 556. Babylon the Great is like an immoral harlot, one living in shameless luxery." Rev. 17:1-5; Rev 18:7. Is it not true that the dominant religious organizations have made it a practice to consort with political rulers for power and material gain, though this has resulted in suffering for the common people? Is it not also true that their higher clergy live in luxury, even though many of the people to whom they should minister may be impoverished? Why can religions that profess to be Chriatian properly be viewed as a part of Babylon the Great, along with those who know nothing of the God of the Bible? James 4:4: "Adulteresses, do you not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friens=d of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God." (So, though they know what the Bible says about God, they make themselves his enemies if they choose friendship withthe world by imitating its ways.) 2 Cor. 4:4; 11:14,15: "The god of this system of things has blinded the inds of the unbelievers,, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who id the image of God, might not shine thrrough." Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according tho theri works." Matthew.7:21-23 (read) Thus the urgent message to get out of her "If you don not want to share in her sins and receive part of her plagues." VEW quote: ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE vew - Welcome to Forums! We do not require that you be an orthodox Christian to be a member of the site, but we do require that you respect our Terms of Service, especially TOS #15. You may want to read our Range of Doctrine and our Statement of Faith. Repeated statements against these documents and TOS 15 will result in disciplinary action against your account here. Thank you! Tricia Forums Moderator Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat. Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns. Please do not send me PMs regarding this message. Uhm... I do not see what was said wrong in this post. Please could you explain in more detail.

ta_mosquito -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (9/30/2008 9:52:39 AM)
Swordlady - Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat. Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns. Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.

jbow -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (9/30/2008 9:21:01 PM)
I think that Babylon is representative of the world political power. At one time it was Egypt, Babylon, Rome, the Vatican, western Europe, the USA, and others. I believe at end there will arise a one world power: Mystery Babylon. Whether it will be based in the USA or not, I don't know but probably. In any case, everything fits in such a scenario. The political powers of the world, at different times and in different places, are the ones that have killed the saints. It is what will kill the saints in the future. The world is of the devil. J

JamesL5 -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (9/30/2008 9:58:47 PM)
Jbow, I am inclined to agree with you although I think the actual Fall of Babylon already occurred. But I definitely agree that we've seen many examples of Babylon such as the Persian Empire, Roman Empire, Soviet Empire, Mongol Empire, and our present day American Imperialism. [;)]

Ntech -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (9/30/2008 10:45:59 PM)
My answer to the question would be a possible yes. But not all by itself though. Here's my reasoning. After looking over the prophesies of Daniel and Revelation there is something to consider here. The Beast of Revelation has 10 horns. The feet of the statue of Daniel 2 has ten toes. It is commonly assumed that the horns and toes represent nations. Therefore the end time empire of the Antichrist is some kind of confederacy of 10 nations or groups of nations. But also consider this. The Dragon also has 10 horns. 10 other nations. There is actually 2 confederations there. And the 2 button horns of the lamb that speaks like a dragon. Another 2 nations in the mix. Its really quite the mess.

tracydolls -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (10/3/2008 10:54:58 AM)
Yes. America sits as Queen of the Babylonion System.

cow451 -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (10/3/2008 2:21:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tracydolls Yes. America sits as Queen of the Babylonion System. It would certainly make sense that America would reign over B.S.[8\|] Sorry, too tempting to pass up.

stellaluna -> RE: Is U.S.A. "Mystery Babylon"? (10/3/2008 4:54:54 PM)
Why do we care? If we are, meh. If we aren't, meh. In the big picture it doesn't really matter.

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