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RE: Should the guy always make the first move? - 9/9/2008 7:12:33 PM
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Ninjaearth
Posts: 97
Joined: 2/16/2008
From: Hyattsville, Maryland
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deermousie
I was hoping a guy would bring this up. Watch the eyes for mutual eye contact, and then a smile, however brief. It's the first step on the dance. The second is go talk to her about something of interest to her. "Been going to this church long? Do your parents go here? Did you get that broken arm in a bar fight?" (Well, maybe not the last one, but it would make me laugh. Laughter = approval)(the third step is the sideways hug).
We women are not as bold and direct as you guys; we hint. You are stalking Big Game here, so develop a hair trigger on spotting the little signs. It's good practice for marriage, too. And you can then ask your wife to more direct, when she's confident of your love.
Look at Scripture - there are sisters, betrothed women, wives, daughters, widows... no girlfriends. God is going to (probably) give you a wife in His perfect time. Is your education finished? Do you have a career that will support a family for 30 years? Are you getting into your Bible daily and keeping short accounts with your sin ("Oh, that's sin. I confess it, God, and turn away from it. Please help me to live Your way"). Do you have a good name with the spiritually mature Christians in your life? Please allow me to suggest, contrary to the secular world, that if you aren't ready to marry then you aren't ready to go find a woman for yourself. Not yet. But one will be there for you to find, and she's be matched just for you, in God's perfect timing.
A godly young lady I know knows that her education is going to make her a better person and servant of God (good Christian college) and that she can't be married , running a house and having kids and still be going to college. So she has put on her blinders and is hitting the books. She told a guy who asked her out, "I don't have time for guys in my life right now" and meant it. It's not that she wouldn't like one, but she's deciding where she's going and how to get there. She isn't going to give any encouragement to any guy, no matter how wonderful, because she's got a target in front of her.
Well, without the "hints' we couldn't do anything. That's actually my point! Otherwise, men will just be assuming all the time. Furthermore, are you assuming that all guys actually get the hints and are bold? The truth is that not 8/10 most guys are not going to get the hint; 9/10 guys are not as bold as you think. Therefore, the women in both of these categories are going to be pretty disappointed in the men, because the man isn't going to do something and make a fool of himself unless he has some hint of victory and even if he does, there are some guys that are shy. So, to help the shy guys, the woman will have to send a signal that says I'm interested and it has to be clear it means that; that may mean a smile and a remark that "gives away" her interest. Otherwise, a smile may simply mean "hey friend, who are you" and not "hey guy, I"m interested". It works both ways; I'm just saying that it has to be clear and most times for us it's not that clear and most guys are just not bold enough to approach a woman unless the woman potentially smacks him with the interest. That's just a fact of life.
You're right about the girlfriend then; would you, then say, by that standard that every guy that has a girlfriend would be sinning against God since girlfriends are not listed in Scripture as a valid relationship? I think you want to be probably be careful about that one...remember, terms like Rapture and Trinity aren't found in Scripture either but are acceptable biblical doctrines. No, girlfriends isn't a biblical theological term, but it's still accepted in many Christian camps. Granted, that doesn't make it "biblical" but neither does it make it unbiblical. And strictly speaking, two people aren't just going to get married just because they are interested in one another on a short note. However, I don't believe having a gf is a sin nor it is unbiblical, but like any relationship what you do in it and with it can be. I mean, I can trust God for a wife all I want (and I do) but if I never take time out to go and find a wife and spend time in getting to know a woman then I'm just essentially praying without having any effort to it. Part of finding a wife does involve the process of having a girlfriend, for some. There are some people that just marry after some time of meeting each other never having time to date or being engaged; most of the time, in our society, this doesn't work out very well but there are some exceptions. That's just the world we live in.
My final comment is that everyone has their standards to finding a mate or spouse and all of them could be very good or very bad. The only sure way anyone can be assured of the right one is simply through God's Sovereign hand putting two together. How He does that is up to Him, but I think regardless of standard a man should be ready to handle a wife in some aspect like a woman should be ready for a husband in some aspect. In reality, unless two people have straight-forward lives with everything handed to them, some body who is fully ready for marriage does not exist. By that, no one is ever ready for marriage in every regard; but they can be ready for marriage as far as financially, emotionally, and mentally and even physically. Essentially, if one is mature enough to handle the responsibilities of marriage it should be okay, but if not then it shouldn't be sought. I agree that no one should be looking for a bf/gf unless they are planning to get married in the near future (perhaps 2-5 or more years). My girlfriend and I, we have talked about it already. I am planning to marry her in the next two years, Lord-willing, but so far what has happened between us has been a wonderful blessing. Sisters, wives, and betrothed women may be the only clear Biblical distinctions, neither of us are in the position to marry right now (we're long distance right now) but we will be later. Anyway, you do have some good advice but I don't think things are just easy and are usually more complicated than what is usually thought.
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"Spiritual Soldier Ninjaearth"
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RE: Should the guy always make the first move? - 9/9/2008 10:36:28 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 1864
Joined: 9/26/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ninjaearth
Well, without the "hints' we couldn't do anything. That's actually my point! Otherwise, men will just be assuming all the time.
You're right, Ninjaearth, it's a problem because men and women are facing each other but often miss each other like ships in the night. We aren't the same and don't act the same, and it makes for no end of confusion and problems. Like this one. And I'm not sure there is a one sure-cure for it, except for people to understand how they work and how the opposite sex often works. I used to have a roommate that called men "the opposite species," and the older I get the more right on I think she is.  (yes, I hear you guys out there going, "No, you're the opposite species!").
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Furthermore, are you assuming that all guys actually get the hints and are bold? The truth is that not 8/10 most guys are not going to get the hint; 9/10 guys are not as bold as you think.
No, I'm not assuming that, and I apologize that my words left that interpretation open. People are different, some are bold, some are shy, some have a headache and don't want to talk. You know. Ideally I think a guy (and you're probably going to think I'm nuts here. OK) should hang out in mixed groups, learn to understand women without the pressure of dating, and when he thinks he's found the one God may be leading him to as a marriage partner, call her father and present himself as a potential suitor. But you're talking about dating, so I'll go back to that. A guy is going to have to find his way in relationships with women, knowing that women are different. He'll have to match his personality and style with how he approaches a woman. 1 Pet. 3:7 says:
You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way
which indicates that men might not understand their wives unless they make an effort to learn how they work (hence, that's why it's given as a command).
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Therefore, the women in both of these categories are going to be pretty disappointed in the men, because the man isn't going to do something and make a fool of himself unless he has some hint of victory and even if he does, there are some guys that are shy.
Let me throw something in here, Ninjaearth: if God is in control of the universe and keeps the stars in their orbits, can't He also bring a wife to a guy at the right time? Look at Romans 8:29 - it says God foreknew you and predestined you to be conformed to the image of His Son. Would He not also foreknow that a man needs a wife? After all, God was the one who said it's not good for a man to be alone. I just don't think God is obligated to bring anyone a girlfriend because He never mentions it, just wives (in fact, God says it's not good for a man to touch a woman - so if you are touching your girlfriend, God says what you're doing isn't good. 1 Cor. 7:1,2).
The whole reason for the above is that I don't think God is worried about a guy risking a rejection from a girl that isn't the woman the guy is supposed to marry at that moment. Probably.
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So, to help the shy guys, the woman will have to send a signal that says I'm interested and it has to be clear it means that; that may mean a smile and a remark that "gives away" her interest. Otherwise, a smile may simply mean "hey friend, who are you" and not "hey guy, I"m interested". It works both ways; I'm just saying that it has to be clear and most times for us it's not that clear and most guys are just not bold enough to approach a woman unless the woman potentially smacks him with the interest. That's just a fact of life.
OK, assuming God thinks girlfriends are in line with His will for your life, then you're right.
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You're right about the girlfriend then; would you, then say, by that standard that every guy that has a girlfriend would be sinning against God since girlfriends are not listed in Scripture as a valid relationship? I think you want to be probably be careful about that one...remember, terms like Rapture and Trinity aren't found in Scripture either but are acceptable biblical doctrines.
I am trying to be careful, Ninjaearth, and I'll back down if it's clear I'm out in left field (it happens. Crow doesn't taste too bad ). The Bible doesn't go as far as saying sinning in 1 Cor. 7, it just says touching is not good. The context is an unmarried man and woman, which is shown because it says let them get married. We're not talking brother/sister here or any family relationship, either, so it's an unmarried couple who could get married. So if God says it's not good, does a Christian who is trying to live for and please God going to go there? Maybe not, if they think about it. If they don't know about that verse, I could see a person behaving in that way and God dealing with more important things in their lives (blatant sins). So if you have an unmarried couple who are touching each other, what is their relationship? It's romantic and possibly sexually stimulating but probably not headed for marriage at that point. Sounds like American dating to me. God's answer is: get married. (and BTW, the doctrine of the Trinity has been accepted in all mainline Christian circles from Acts until now, but the Rapture hasn't. It's the theology of premillenial, postmillenial and amillenial escatology. The Rapture was never accepted by the Christian church between the time of Acts and the 1800s. But I digress).
No, girlfriends isn't a biblical theological term, but it's still accepted in many Christian camps.
A lot of secular ideas are. Dating is a recent phenomena, less than 150 years old. It has no biblical foundation. I'm sure there are Christians who date and are careful to not sexually defraud one another, but I see few churches that teach how to live life in a godly manner regarding their sex life. And how many churches have pregnant teens but never preach from the pulpit personal purity until marriage? How many Christians know the word fornication and what the Bible says about it? Rhetorical questions; you don't have to answer them.
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Granted, that doesn't make it "biblical" but neither does it make it unbiblical.
But the Bible talks in more than one place about fornication and sexual impurity. How common is it for dating people to have sex? That is culturally accepted, too, in most circles. Hollywood glorifies and encourages it. So you've got a cultural, secular idea of dating that often leads to something the Bible absolutely forbids, and many churches aren't preaching against it inspite of the fact that fornication and sexual immorality is a sign of an unsaved person (Gal. 5, for example). Hey, if you can date without touching or defrauding your date sexually (arrousing passions that can't be righteously fulfilled) then no one can say "you're wrong" or "you're sinning." It seems unwise, but that's not sin.
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And strictly speaking, two people aren't just going to get married just because they are interested in one another on a short note.
There's a thread in the marriage section of this forum, and a lot of people have done just that.  God gives grace. But if you know someone for a while in a group of friends or go to church or work together, you can see some of the things that pique your interest: godly behavior, kindness, loves others, biblical standards, good hygiene (hey, we live here and have noses ) and you can say they don't look like they have anything that would be a dealbreaker. You could ask her father about her and let him ask you questions to see if you have any dealbreakers. If he, who knows her so well and has been looking our for her best interests (ideally), thinks you're a good guy and good marriage material, he can ask her if she wants to get to know you better or let you ask her.
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However, I don't believe having a gf is a sin nor it is unbiblical, but like any relationship what you do in it and with it can be.
True, the second half of that, and you hit an important part. Everything we do has a spiritual dimension because we are spiritual as well as physical beings. To the pure all things are pure. But healthy, unmarried people who are touching and alone are tempted. I think it wise to avoid anything we know can put us in temptation.
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I mean, I can trust God for a wife all I want (and I do) but if I never take time out to go and find a wife and spend time in getting to know a woman then I'm just essentially praying without having any effort to it.
OK, let me challenge you on this: how much effort did you put into getting saved? None. God found you dead and helpless and made you alive in Him by His effort on the cross and the empty tomb. Can God not also bring you a wife? He did for Adam and Isaac. Jacob was running for his life and found Rachel.
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Part of finding a wife does involve the process of having a girlfriend, for some.
Yes, it's common in North America and European nations. But so is a lot of immorality.
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There are some people that just marry after some time of meeting each other never having time to date or being engaged; most of the time, in our society, this doesn't work out very well but there are some exceptions. That's just the world we live in.
And I think God has an outrageous sense of humor, too.
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My final comment is that everyone has their standards to finding a mate or spouse and all of them could be very good or very bad. The only sure way anyone can be assured of the right one is simply through God's Sovereign hand putting two together. How He does that is up to Him, but I think regardless of standard a man should be ready to handle a wife in some aspect like a woman should be ready for a husband in some aspect. In reality, unless two people have straight-forward lives with everything handed to them, some body who is fully ready for marriage does not exist. By that, no one is ever ready for marriage in every regard; but they can be ready for marriage as far as financially, emotionally, and mentally and even physically. Essentially, if one is mature enough to handle the responsibilities of marriage it should be okay, but if not then it shouldn't be sought. I agree that no one should be looking for a bf/gf unless they are planning to get married in the near future (perhaps 2-5 or more years). My girlfriend and I, we have talked about it already. I am planning to marry her in the next two years, Lord-willing, but so far what has happened between us has been a wonderful blessing. Sisters, wives, and betrothed women may be the only clear Biblical distinctions, neither of us are in the position to marry right now (we're long distance right now) but we will be later. Anyway, you do have some good advice but I don't think things are just easy and are usually more complicated than what is usually thought.
I agree with you, Ninjaearth. Life is always complicated. I wish more guys were like you.
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: Should the guy always make the first move? - 9/10/2008 5:33:00 AM
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stimulus
Posts: 180
Joined: 6/4/2005
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quote:
(in fact, God says it's not good for a man to touch a woman - so if you are touching your girlfriend, God says what you're doing isn't good. 1 Cor. 7:1,2).
Most scholars say that "touching a woman" was a common expression that meant "sexual relations" or "taking for a wife". The passage isn't teaching that merely touching is not good in God's sight.
Moreover, the statement is also a question Paul is responding to, not a statement, command, or teaching he is giving.
Consider these translations of the verse, and note how Paul is responding to something written to him.
- (NKJ) - Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
- (Holman Christian) - About the things you wrote: "It is good for a man not to have relations with a woman."
- (NIV) - Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.
- (TNIV) - Now for the matters you wrote about: "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman."
When you read the entire passage, and keep in mind the meaning of "touching a woman" it's clear Paul was responding to a question. "So, Paul, you're saying it's good for a man not to marry or have sex?"
"No, Corinthians, what I'm saying is..."
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since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. 8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
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RE: Should the guy always make the first move? - 9/10/2008 9:15:52 AM
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jesuschick247
Posts: 2277
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PopsiLufsJesus
Chick! Why didn't you tell me about this thread! hahaha...
Anyways,
I am with most of the guys on this one. My opinion that it isn't the guys responsibility to always make the first step because frankly--most guys WON'T! If you want to know if he likes you, just ask him. Otherwise you are going to keep having the same feelings and be disappointed everytime that he doesn't say something. You can wait, and wait, and wait...and it may never happen and you may have to be sad about it everytime you expect it to happen. Or simply, you could just ask him. You are an adult. He is an adult. Ask him! That is my advice!
Love is not provoked! 
Hey, Popsi! Guess it just slipped my mind! Anyway, I see him tonight and I've decided for the time being I'm going to just keep being his friend and trying to learn more about him as a person, the last guy I thought I liked and knew really well turned out to be someone way different when he found out I liked him!(In a bad way!) For the most part, I think we are on the same page, and whatever happens will happen. For the time being God is the Lover of my soul and I am going to be content with that and if he wants me to like him, then He will make a way for it to come about! I guess I just shouldn't worry so much!! I keep remembering the verse, "Love is Patient..."
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I Think I'm Outta Control!
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RE: Should the guy always make the first move? - 9/10/2008 9:21:30 AM
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deermousie
Posts: 1864
Joined: 9/26/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stimulus
quote:
(in fact, God says it's not good for a man to touch a woman - so if you are touching your girlfriend, God says what you're doing isn't good. 1 Cor. 7:1,2).
Most scholars say that "touching a woman" was a common expression that meant "sexual relations" or "taking for a wife". The passage isn't teaching that merely touching is not good in God's sight.
Moreover, the statement is also a question Paul is responding to, not a statement, command, or teaching he is giving.
You are right, Stimulus. Vine ("Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words") says that, too. The Greek word hapto also means "to kindle a fire" or "cling to." I'm wondering about this, since it's a concession according to Paul, and not a command, since fornication is commanded to be avoided. So there's a difference here and I don't know enough scholarship of Greek and theology to take this any further (frustrating, isn't it?).
quote:
Consider these translations of the verse, and note how Paul is responding to something written to him.
- (NKJ) - Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
- (Holman Christian) - About the things you wrote: "It is good for a man not to have relations with a woman."
- (NIV) - Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.
- (TNIV) - Now for the matters you wrote about: "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman."
When you read the entire passage, and keep in mind the meaning of "touching a woman" it's clear Paul was responding to a question. "So, Paul, you're saying it's good for a man not to marry or have sex?"
"No, Corinthians, what I'm saying is..."
quote:
since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. 8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
Whether it is smootching or sexual intercourse, God says it's not good, and that people should marry and have sex since it's better to marry than to burn with passion. So the picture I get, fuzzy as it is, is for the people to either keep their hands and bodies to themselves or get married. If God says something is not good, won't a serious Christian steer away from any hint of going that way? Considering that people can marry at 18 and have fun, hot sex for the next 50-60 years, a few years of frustration isn't a bad investment.
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: Should the guy always make the first move? - 9/10/2008 11:01:34 AM
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jesuschick247
Posts: 2277
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I actually talked to him for quite a while the other night out our Leadership meeting,(we're both leaders in our youth group) and it's so weird, normally when I like a guy I am so nervous around him, but this one doesn't make me nervous! It was just like talking to any of my other guy friends, which was kind of cool. What is really getting me though is that we are on the same page spiritually, which doesn't happen a lot. God in control though and I will be happy just to ride it out and see where it goes! (I will still always like to listen to him sing no matter what happens though! I am convinced that if we could hear angels, he's what they would sound like!)
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I Think I'm Outta Control!
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RE: Should the guy always make the first move? - 9/10/2008 11:42:27 AM
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jesuschick247
Posts: 2277
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Yeah, me too! (It doesn't hurt that he is really adorable either?!) I'm keeping my head before my heart this time though, no more falling head over heels for me, it's too painful when the guy doesn't catch you! And besides, I have to stay focused, I have to keep good grades in my college work and being too involved with a guy could deter my determination to do well!
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I Think I'm Outta Control!
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RE: Should the guy always make the first move? - 9/10/2008 12:22:36 PM
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jesuschick247
Posts: 2277
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PopsiLufsJesus
When I was in college that was my major as well. I've been to two different colleges and am thinking about starting college here in January. I went to CCCB in Missouri. I went to Mansfield U in Pennsylvania. And I am thinking of going to the community college here in NC. Man oh man. We'll see. You see you can get your teaching degree here for free if you agree to teach in the state for four years after you graduate.
So are you going Elem and Spec Ed. Or are you going highschool ed?
I am going Elementary, I think! I'm still freshman, so I have plenty of time to decide! First two years are basics anyway! That's cool that you went to college in Missouri, CCCB is about two hours from my house?! And that is very sweet that you can get your degree for free, my college is paid for because I'm what you call a first time grad,(My mom or dad didn't graduate from college.) so that helps some!
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I Think I'm Outta Control!
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RE: Should the guy always make the first move? - 9/10/2008 12:30:43 PM
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jesuschick247
Posts: 2277
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PopsiLufsJesus
Never go to CCCB! I mean EVER! I was only there for a semester. Yikes. Let me tell you. So not how they advertise themselves!
I hate it when people are like that, say on thing do another! So, where are you at in your life right now? Any plans or dreams you are chasing?
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I Think I'm Outta Control!
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RE: Should the guy always make the first move? - 9/10/2008 1:42:13 PM
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broyce1981
Posts: 1881
Joined: 8/8/2006
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What is CCCB?
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RE: Should the guy always make the first move? - 9/10/2008 1:53:10 PM
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jesuschick247
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Wow moving that much must be hard!! I have lived in the same state for nine years now, can't imagine moving!! Mostly because I love the teens in my youth group way too much!!! Anyhow, I'm sure God will show you the thing that He wants you to do!!!
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I Think I'm Outta Control!
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RE: Should the guy always make the first move? - 9/10/2008 2:49:38 PM
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jesuschick247
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No, I actually met him at youth group a year ago, one of my really good guy friends is his best friend, so yeah, that's how that one came about. I hadn't really thought about liking him as more than a friend until oh, about a month ago. I actually had a crush someone else at the time,(or so I thought) anyway, our young adults group went on a trip to Worlds Of Fun and seeing as we are both single, there were a lot of rides that were two seats, so we ended up riding together a lot! And we set by each other at supper and stuff, it was the first time I had really ever talked to him, he's super shy and soft-spoken.(Unlike me!! ) We just connected on a lot of levels, he likes to sing and I like to sing, we both want to be involved in teen ministry and we both want to adopt. But, I didn't really give it much thought, just saw him as a guy friend, nothing more. Then at when we went as helpers to camp, I don't know, something just changed. I saw him as someone who really did care about God's will for his life, someone I could actually maybe like. And it's just kind of grown from there, we both got a part in our church's christmas musical, and he is so funny, I always catch him starring at me during practice! I guess the main reason I haven't said anything to him about liking him is because I just want it to be totally natural if we do like each other and I want to make sure this is really what God wants for me and not just what I want for me!
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I Think I'm Outta Control!
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RE: Should the guy always make the first move? - 9/10/2008 3:45:28 PM
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jesuschick247
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Don't get too excited yet, nothing has really happened except for the fact I know I really like him! And I kind of hope he likes me too!
So, you like Our Heart's Hero, too? I love them!!!!!! I hadn't ever even heard of them until they were on tour with Stellar Kart last year, and the first time I heard them, I was in love with the way they sound!!
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I Think I'm Outta Control!
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RE: Should the guy always make the first move? - 9/10/2008 7:43:23 PM
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Ninjaearth
Posts: 97
Joined: 2/16/2008
From: Hyattsville, Maryland
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deermousie
You're right, Ninjaearth, it's a problem because men and women are facing each other but often miss each other like ships in the night. We aren't the same and don't act the same, and it makes for no end of confusion and problems. Like this one. And I'm not sure there is a one sure-cure for it, except for people to understand how they work and how the opposite sex often works. I used to have a roommate that called men "the opposite species," and the older I get the more right on I think she is. (yes, I hear you guys out there going, "No, you're the opposite species!").
Well, we are definitely the opposite in terms of our sex but I think on both counts the complication is mutual. In all, regardless of that, we're all just different.
quote:
No, I'm not assuming that, and I apologize that my words left that interpretation open. People are different, some are bold, some are shy, some have a headache and don't wan | | |
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