RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid?
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/14/2008 6:06:59 PM
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macokjc
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It has nothing to do w/ forgetting that this forum covers different countries. However, the original post was about Christians and welfare - and it's obvious that the Canadian system is much different than ours, so much so that it became a capitalism vs. socialims discussion. Canada has a wealth-redistribution system, not a welfare system.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/14/2008 6:43:04 PM
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relady
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quote:
I think I'm done for a while trying to make a case to someone like you who appears to be a socialist at heart. How can I say that? Because over the years you have made it plain that the government is our ultimate safety net, our ultimate provider. Wow, I must've hit a nerve, LOL. Seriously, I'm sorry, but I have never made it a secret that I believe that a measure of socialism with democracy is the best system. I do not believe the government is or should be the "ultimate provider". I don't really know where you got that, but oh well. But just as a reminder...socialism is an ECONOMIC system, democracy is a GOVERNMENTAL system. They are not mutually exclusive. Sometimes they are, but they don't have to be, as Canada so clearly proves.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/14/2008 7:22:44 PM
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Oldwing
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I was on state subsidized medical health care when I found out I had cancer. Had I not I would have likely never have known as health care insurance is beyond my means and I would not have had the simple tests that found my cancer, nor had the lifesaving surgeries that cured me. I am here today by the grace of God and by the grace of the state that subsidized my Blue Cross Blue Shield.
I have since moved to another state that does not offer such help and I pray that I find affordable insurance before any other calamity should attack my health.
But I am content that God will provide.
_____________________________
Gary
These things I command you, that you love one another. John 15:17
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/15/2008 11:03:52 AM
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pbaribeault
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In what way(s) do we discern the difference between a "wealth redistribution system" and a "welfare system"?
To me, both take tax money and, using a system of who-qualifies-for-what, give a portion of that money to the people who qualify.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/16/2008 8:06:30 AM
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P31W
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quote:
I don't get it; if the government redistributes the wealth, why would people work? If the less I work, the more I get, why work at all?
Excellant point! You must also take into consideration "risk" that involved in opening a new business, hiring new employees, trying to invest something that will help society greatly and so on. When the government raises my tax level I have to stop and ask myself if opening a new business, hiring new employees, offering them certain benefits, producing a new produce, investing something beneficial and the like it "worth" the risk when my reward is reduced by a certain amount. When the reward is low there is less reason for people to take risk in life. It's much easier to put your money into something that is less risky such as a CD and forget about trying to do better.
When a society does not reward excellance, risk takers and so one or allow peple to work with a slack hand and take that risk then society becomes a nation of slackers who do work with a lazy hand. We must allow both excellance and failure to run it's course inorder to bring about the best.
Why would a future doctor invest 12 years in school working to be the top of the class, another 8-16 years to become a doctor and a specialist if their reward after that many decades of their life to get the same or close to the same standard of living as the person who drops out of school and only works 35 hrs per week?
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/16/2008 8:10:18 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Unemployment is NOT welfare
This is false. It is welfare.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/16/2008 8:17:40 AM
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P31W
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quote:
I agree with this, although I think that in many cases the church is not unable, it is UNWILLING. If the church had been/was doing it's job of providing for the Levites (pastors), widows, orphans, and aliens. (Deut 14:29), there would never have been a NEED for all of these social programs.
Remember the chruch is not some 'other people who are leaders within the church" nor is the church a building. The church is "you and I".
I agree with you that this is not an unable issue rather it's an unwilling issue.
One thing we may ALL want to stop and examine is are "we" each as individuals being obedient to God's word in how we handle "His" resources. I believe the church we each attend is a refection of "us" as an individual.
If the individuals within the Chruch take God's word serious and are actively doing what God says for us to do our Chruch will reflect those same actions, morals, values, actions, etc.
First God commands that we EACH work to the best of our ability, six days a week if need be and both day and night if need be inorder to NOT be a burden to others.
Secondly God commands us to provide for our own family. Any widows in our family are to be provided for "by us". Any orpahans and needy in our family is to be provided for "by us". And as Paul says even lost people provide for those in their own household....how much more should be as believers be doing?
Thirdly in our Chruch each of us as individuals should be actively working in the ministries inorder to meet the needs of those within our fellowship who CANNOT meet their "needs".
Those whom wish be have the chruch meet their needs or the needs of their family members who do not work, work with a slack hand or refuse to do what is required to get themselves to a position where they can care for their own should be removed from the fellowship. We are to treat them as a non-believer. We are to pray that they realize their sin, repent and get busy being able to provide for their own AND help someone else who cannot.
One rule that God gave to Christians is that if you don't work you don't eat. Too many Christains are on all types of government welfare and get disability checks because they don't work and don't want to work. We as Christians are to shun those people.
< Message edited by P31W -- 9/16/2008 8:28:52 AM >
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/16/2008 8:23:36 AM
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P31W
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Remember too that is was God who laid down our strong property rights laws in His word.
Thou shalt not steal is a property rights issue.
Thou shalt not covet is also a property rights issue.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/17/2008 12:06:10 AM
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relady
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quote:
This is false. It is welfare. It is a tax paid by the employer, and you have to have worked a certain number of hours in a preceding set amount of time in order to qualify. That is most certainly NOT welfare, unless you consider all types of assistance welfare, which you may. In which case I just say you have a very strange sense of what is considered welfare.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/17/2008 7:59:38 AM
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P31W
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quote:
It is a tax paid by the employer
Correct! That means when someone applies for it they didn't pay a dime of their own money into it. That makes it welfare. Someone ELSE had to do without and pay for it.
Defination of govermental welfare:
Noun 1. welfare - governmental provision of economic assistance to persons in need; "she lives on welfare"
I am an employer. I do NOT HAVE UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE.....why? Because I know that it's "me" who would be putting up my OWN money for the insurance......So I "self insure". I am the one paying for my employees....they don't pay in a dime.
Now if given the option I would allow "them" to either enter into the govermental program- pay for the coverage themselves or they could self insure like I do.
Unemployment tax is a tax on EMPLOYERS.
Copy from the US Dept. of Labor
Unemployment Insurance Taxes
Unemployment Insurance (UI) is a federal-state program jointly financed through federal and state employer payroll taxes (federal/state UI tax). Generally, employers must pay both state and federal unemployment taxes if: (1) they pay wages to employees totaling $1500, or more, in any quarter of a calendar year; or, (2) they had at least one employee during any day of a week during 20 weeks in a calendar year, regardless of whether or not the weeks were consecutive. .
< Message edited by P31W -- 9/17/2008 8:30:36 AM >
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/17/2008 11:22:00 AM
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P31W
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quote:
In what way(s) do we discern the difference between a "wealth redistribution system" and a "welfare system"?
Who takes the risk.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/17/2008 7:26:50 PM
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pbaribeault
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I'm unclear what is meant by 'risk' in this context.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/17/2008 8:01:46 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
I'm unclear what is meant by 'risk' in this context.
Who provides the money that is being "redistributed".
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/18/2008 11:08:52 AM
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Leslie_JnJs_mom
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The more money a person makes the more taxes they pay. There are people in our government that want to take 75% if the wealthy persons income! That is just a pure outrage there.
I can tell you that what also bothers me is governments wasteful spending. The government actually spent millions of dollars studying the the fertility cycle of bears! I was reading some articles on this and I was shocked at the billions of dollars that are wasted on the stupidest of things.
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<------- Jessica and I had so much fun with grandma!
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/18/2008 11:16:22 AM
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pbaribeault
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So, in a 'redistribution' system, the money comes from personal income and corporate taxes, collected according to a normal tax structure (a mandatory part of living in society)... this is the same place that the basic funding for most government programs, projects and services comes from. (Not entirely... some programs have added funds from payroll deductions that are split between employer and employees, deducted in the same way as the taxes, but only up to a maximum per year.)
In what ways does that differ from the funding structure behind a 'welfare' program?
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/18/2008 12:09:35 PM
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bzirk
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The way taxes are collected is the same, but the distribution is not. When taxes are collected for infrastructure and safety, etc., everyone benefits from those programs. With welfare, that is not a benefit but to a few and in fact is a drain on the many.
BTW, it bears noting that seldom does it seem that U.S. taxpayers begrudge paying taxes to help people who are either permanently disable or temporarily disabled or who need temporary assistance (aka "a hand up" for a short time) to get back on their feet. Other than that, it should not be the government's role to assist people with their personal situations.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/18/2008 12:46:34 PM
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pbaribeault
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It seems to me that any democracy can choose who should be entitled to payments, for how long and under what circumstances.
If most Americans feel that welfare payments are immoral (because they do not benefit everyone equally, because they are too easy, or because they go on for too long) why is that not reflected in your policies?
On the other hand, I do think that everyone benefits from even the most blatant situations of paying off those who become impoverished through their own stupidity. The same way we benefit from the court that puts away criminals (even when we are not eating the prison food that we are paying for) in the situation of poverty, it needs to be acknowledge the vast differences not having a destitute class makes in your society and economy -- for everyone.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/18/2008 12:54:58 PM
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GregandJenny
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quote:
If most Americans feel that welfare payments are immoral (because they do not benefit everyone equally, because they are too easy, or because they go on for too long) why is that not reflected in your policies?
I don't think it's most, but does anyone have the numbers?
_____________________________
It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/18/2008 1:33:09 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
quote:
If most Americans feel that welfare payments are immoral (because they do not benefit everyone equally, because they are too easy, or because they go on for too long) why is that not reflected in your policies?
I don't think it's most, but does anyone have the numbers?
I don't think it's the majority either. I'm sure most liberals would love to turn us into a socialist state. Fiscal conservatives seem to be the minority lately... And even if "we" hold the presidency we still don't hold the majority in congress.
Btw, the US is technically a republic, not a democracy.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/19/2008 10:56:20 AM
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bzirk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
It seems to me that any democracy can choose who should be entitled to payments, for how long and under what circumstances.
If most Americans feel that welfare payments are immoral (because they do not benefit everyone equally, because they are too easy, or because they go on for too long) why is that not reflected in your policies?
On the other hand, I do think that everyone benefits from even the most blatant situations of paying off those who become impoverished through their own stupidity. The same way we benefit from the court that puts away criminals (even when we are not eating the prison food that we are paying for) in the situation of poverty, it needs to be acknowledge the vast differences not having a destitute class makes in your society and economy -- for everyone.
I don't think most Americans believe welfare is immoral. That is not the issue. The issue is disagreement on who should be eligible for welfare.
Also, we are not a democracy. We are a repulblic, and as such, we expect our representatives to be our advocates in Washington. Unfortuantely, that AIN'T happenin'.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/19/2008 11:25:22 AM
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P31W
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For me it's an issue on this thread concering who Christians are to turn to for help.
I find it very clear in scripture that we first turn to our family and friends.
Then to our church.
There is no mention of seeking help from a government.
If the family and Chruch is in obedience to God the Christians is going to learn something about their spiritural walk and the walks of those around them. They will not be allowed to live in sin and take money off those around them with out correction. It will help the Christains always to follow God's plan. Always!!!! God's plans never fail. Never.
If we seek to follow God's plan we will discover the individual is going to hold the chruch accountable for doing with right thing with God's recources and the Chruch is going to inturn hold the individual responsible for doing the right thing with God's resources.
Sin will be unmask, repented of and the entire church will be blessed and God's name glorified. His Chruch will be an example to a Lost World of God's way of doing things.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/19/2008 2:41:08 PM
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bzirk
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I guess I'm not seeing that the question is about who someone turns to first but rather "should Christians be on any form of welfare?"
It's my experience that the Lord can use whatever and whomever He desires to make provision, and therefore it is possible for a Christian to be on welfare. It is certainly up to the individual to seek Him about this, but there are instances in scripture when the "government" was somehow utilized to protect followers of the Lord. IOW, provision was made for them. Moses comes to mind first.
Just to be clear, I agree with you that making the government our provider is wrong. That does not line up with scripture, but I don't rule out the Lord making provision through a government.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/20/2008 7:57:50 PM
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Leslie_JnJs_mom
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I know a lot of families in our Church who get wic and medicaid. We are a small church of only 200 to 300 on good Sundays. The problem is that our church would go broke bringing struggling families milk, eggs, cereal... and pay medical. We have a few not liberal democrats that say they stay with the party to try and change it from the inside out. They firmly believe that the tax money they pay is their way of helping the poor. Not just the poor in church but all struggling families. I have seen on the news how even the government programs are struggling now due to the increased demand. Families that were just getting by without any help have now reached the breaking point. I am not sure how much help a church can be when over half of its members are in the same boat. This is a blue collar area and to make things worse many companies are leaving for Mexico. There is a lot of families in trouble around here. Our prayer request sheets are full of so and so is out of a job and they have x many kids. Please pray for the bills to get paid.
_____________________________
<------- Jessica and I had so much fun with grandma!
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/20/2008 10:29:22 PM
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GregandJenny
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quote:
We are a small church of only 200 to 300 on good Sundays.
That's huge! There is no way though that all of the individual couldn't collectively take care for those in need?
G
_____________________________
It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/20/2008 10:38:10 PM
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bzirk
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We're in a church of 100-150. I am amazed at what the Lord can do. We cannot out give Him.
quote:
Luke 6
38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
There is a wonderful freedom in giving like this. I had to live a few  years to figure this out, and it took leaving a six figure job and leaving the "American Dream" behind to discover it. Because for me it took being in a place of more dependence on the Lord and less on myself. Not saying this is what everyone should do. I'm just saying this is what the Lord has used with me.
Knowing what I know now, I WOULD DO IT AGAIN! LOL!!!
I do not have great health insurance, I wear old clothes and drive really old cars and I don't get to give my kids some things I sometimes dream about, but I'm happy, and my kids are happy and they know the value of work and help but mostly what it means to trust the Lord above ourselves and certainly above the government. This is huge.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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