Scandal? dunno what to think.. (Full Version)

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LkM07 -> Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/8/2008 9:56:12 AM)

I will try to keep this short, but to preface I am looking to get SOME advice from outside people also in ministry leadership positions to hear this story and give me feedback as to what they think, and course of action tips.

Our current youth Leader is a guy who stepped up 3 years ago to take over our youth when our paid full time youth leader was asked to step down. Our Church was in a financial bind so this current youth leader (say his name is Todd) did it for absolutely free for almost 2 years, just this year they decided to bring him on paid staff. Not quite full time pay amount but something. He has no formal training or education in ministry but I can tell you this guy gave his all! He has done almost as good as any paid full time, ministry educated youth pastor Ive seen. The only downside that I would casually notice here and there was he was seeming to neglect his wife and 3 young girls.. which concerned me on and off.. His wife is also involved in church too but yeah I kept seeing that and heard others mentioning concern as well. See both of them also work full time jobs too

Well to set another part of the story up.. During the time our Church was in the process of letting our last youth pastor go, Todd went on a missions trip and on this mission trip was one of our core youth kids.. she was at the time a sophmore or jr. She really got close to Todd and during the trip told him he should help with our youth group because of the tough time they were going through. He did, and just in time to step in and take over. He felt very called by God to do this and again as I stated has done a great job.

Here is where the STORY really begins. Through out the past 3 years of him being involved in youth him and the girl (Lets call her Ann) that he met and became friends with on the missions trip have become VERY close... He of course credits Ann a bit for getting him involved with the youth. As they got closer, they started having cutsie inside jokes, and her being the touchy feely clingy teenaged girl she is, she would sometimes hug and hang on him alot. This went on for about a year, people would casually mention it, and I myself felt very close to thinking I should warn him to set boundries and not let her do this. (common ministry sense, reducing the risk stuff ya know). Well, before I had a chance too, a very aggresive lady in our Church did make a big beef about it, and even found pictures on his facebook of him and her on youth trips, and one with her sitting on his lap.. All not good I know!!! again wish I would have spoken up. So this lady really approached him about it almost too unkindly and went behind his back, doing it in almost a rumorish fashion. Her concerns were legit but she was not commpassionate about bringing up the concern and I think did it all wrong. So the ending of that involved that lady getting mad and leaving our Church because she was confronted for not approaching it right, and Todd being told/taught to please set boundries. I stuck up for him throughout the whole thing because I believed that there was nothing going on between him and the girl, I just knew he had not yet learned to set boundries. He is one of those guys that is so nice he is too nice, and I knew he probably struggled with worry of hurting her feelings.

Well he did for a while, but what happens? She is still hanging and hugging all over him, and he is no longer setting boundries. I also learned that he was being a bit stubborn when being told he should not allow her to be so close and huggy with her. So here I am watching it continue as he now does not have the Lady to worry about because she left the Church.. Im assuming. everything slowly went back to how they were.. I felt to exhausted from the last blow up that I and Im sure others just didnt want to bring it up again ya know. Me and my husband kept saying to each other well, she is getting ready to go to college so we wont have to worry about it anymore then.

Well, as I stated above, based on Todds character, personality, I truely believed he was not having an inappropriate relationship with Ann but I started noticing that now, it wasnt just her hugging in him, he was initiatting some of the excessive hugging, he was looking what seemed to be deeper into her eyes when they would talk. at times they seemed like a teenaged couple flirtnig! I really fought to not blow up and me like STOP IT FOR REAL!!! come on.
Finally she leaved for college a month ago right. I think fshew.. and I hope more than anything I dont see him quit helping with youth just because she is gone because that would ad to my growing suspision.
Well, right when It hink there is nothing to be annoyed and concerned about, all of a sudden he drops some heavy cash for a laptop that has a webcam and I find out he is webcam chatting with her at college. at first I was floored, but then, he was being so open about it, and he would take the laptop over to her parents house and let them talk to her too. He was also chatting with some other kids too from the youth so i though ok maybe Im jumping to conclusions. Next comes endless excessive, I miss you comments between Todd and Ann on facebook and myspace. Again very open so, are they hiding anything no.
I also forgot to ad that one time my husband did talk with him and he told my husband the reason he hugs and is close to Anne is because he is one of the only people that knows she is fighting bolemia. That she feels a lack of a father figure in her life (which I know is true) and he is trying to be that for her. The problem is he shows more compassion for her than any of his 3 girls most of the time.. at least from what Ive seen at Church.

So here is the biggest most recent news. Last night at a youth meeting, he announces to us his staff, that he and his wife are getting divorced... and he is stepping down from youth. I was floored. and I feel sick about this. I have been fighting strong feelings that something isnt right with him and that he actually has had an inappropriate infatuation with Anne. Now more than every I cant help but wonder. He says it is mutual between him an d his wife, that they almost called it quits 3 or so years ago but then had their youngest daughter.. I have so many questions and its such a touchy subjest I dont know what to think. My strong feelings could be so wrong.
What bothered me about last night is he told us his youth staff, BEFORE telling our pastor. I think he should have told the pastor A) because he is technically his boss, and B) for spiritual guidence on how to annonce this to everyone even us.. I dont know why he would do that because I know the staff is told to always go to leadership 1st.

Anyway sorry this is so long. I know its prob impossible for this description to be accurate enough for anyone on here to give the BEST feedback they can but. Id like to know, does this sound fishy to anyone? What was wrong? What should be done? I see so many red flags now its not good at all. I am so broken hearted not only for his family but for our youth. I cant help but wonder.. why ddi he get involved with the youth if he knew his family and marriage was unstable.. So many questions, and potential damage could come of this



GregandJenny -> RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/8/2008 10:25:41 AM)

Pray.

This is definately a result of Christians not being held to a Biblical Standard and people not being in tune enough with the Holy Spirit to speak to the person about their sin.


What needs to be done, pray. Maybe some reflection too on what you cuold have done differently but ultimately the descision is his.

G



solarflare -> RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/8/2008 10:37:01 AM)

quote:

Anyway sorry this is so long. I know its prob impossible for this description to be accurate enough for anyone on here to give the BEST feedback they can but. Id like to know, does this sound fishy to anyone? What was wrong? What should be done? I see so many red flags now its not good at all. I am so broken hearted not only for his family but for our youth. I cant help but wonder.. why ddi he get involved with the youth if he knew his family and marriage was unstable.. So many questions, and potential damage could come of this



What you thought you were seeing the whole time, is, what finally happened. I really don't know why people in church think it is OK to let behavior of the kind you described, go on. It was never OK, and it is never OK. You really gave it away when you said he had no time for his wife and 3 kids......maybe 'cause he had so much time for the 'girl'?

Sorry if I sound a tad sarcastic....you sound very concerned and obviously you have kept track of this as it happened. What should be done? Well, unless he repents and turns his back on this girl, it's too late.
Going to be a lot of fallout on this one. I am just amazed that no one dealt with this way sooner...I guess the woman who confronted him was in a snot when she did so....that's never a good thing (won't get into why people do that, but none of us should walk around with stones in our hands)
However, that would have been a good time to keep somebody's nose in this guy's business....didn't happen.

I am sorry you are hurting over this......I would, if you pray about it and decide to do so, get in touch with the guy's wife. I would think she really needs some support at this time. There really are no excuses for this guy's behavior. What has happened here is called sin, but I guess you know that. And that is what happens when people make excuses for their sins. I hope that things are dealt with, but going by the track record at your church, doesn't look to good.....that's why I think you should at least contact the wife and perhaps give some support.



LkM07 -> RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/8/2008 10:48:16 AM)

Yes Ive though of that i would like to support her. Another part of what made this so hard to pin point is when the lady at the Church was going after him about this, his wife was 100% supportive, she didnt have susppision of problems with Todd and Anne. ALso, Todd is close to Annes mother as she also helps with the youth. He goes over to their house alot., almost a strange amount. The wife is friends with Anns mom.. there has always been almost just as much tugging at us to think there is nothing to worry about, as stuff making us think there is..
Either way I am very regretful for not confronting. Im a bit gunshy now. I was confrontational about another issue once and I made some mistakes and now Im never sure if Im making a good judgement, or if I should be the one to make a move.



solarflare -> RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/8/2008 11:36:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LkM07

Yes Ive though of that i would like to support her. Another part of what made this so hard to pin point is when the lady at the Church was going after him about this, his wife was 100% supportive, she didnt have susppision of problems with Todd and Anne. ALso, Todd is close to Annes mother as she also helps with the youth. He goes over to their house alot., almost a strange amount. The wife is friends with Anns mom.. there has always been almost just as much tugging at us to think there is nothing to worry about, as stuff making us think there is..
Either way I am very regretful for not confronting. Im a bit gunshy now. I was confrontational about another issue once and I made some mistakes and now Im never sure if Im making a good judgement, or if I should be the one to make a move.



Woah....gets more complicated.....I can understand your hesitancy more now. Where is the Pastor? On a retreat?

The word confront is a regretful one. Approach might better......although sometimes a good 'ole confrontation is needed.....never alone.....Now I'm asking where the Pastor is.......and the elders........a woman should not have approached this guy to begin with. Geez....I'm sorry but I don't think this is something you should take on. Sounds like you might want to have some answers as to why this whole thing was handled so badly.
You might approach the Pastor (if you can find him) with your husband about this and try to get some answers....I think, if I understand you a bit, that you would like some resolution and want to know why it was allowed to go on. At any rate, I think you know, it's messy now and might get messier. Again, I am so sorry.



buckifn -> RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/8/2008 12:54:48 PM)

As an Elder the best advice I can give you is always take your concerns to the Elder's of your church. An Elder is supposed to be wise enough and Spirit filled enough to know how to handle such situations.

What this man was doing with a girl under his authority on a mission trip was absolutely wrong. I cannot imagine a church making excuses for him having her sitting on his lap and esp publishing pictures of it on the internet. That church is wide open for all sorts of legal action.

It doesn't matter at all that she is away and in college. It's still WRONG on so many levels for a man in his position. I would call a meeting and have him removed from his position immed.



sisrev -> RE: Scandal? don't know what to think.. (9/8/2008 1:06:41 PM)

This is something that the elders or the pastor/board, whoever is in leadership at your church, should have nipped in the bud a long time ago. It's too bad that the one person who was concerned enough about it to bring it up was driven away, but the core issue was apparently ever addressed. This man should have been removed from leadership or any contact with youth the first time there were pictures of this girl sitting on his lap. How much more inappropriate can you be in public and not be called down for it?



cameroonman -> RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/8/2008 1:42:31 PM)

Hello LkM07
How sad is this story! What can we dishonour the Lord. I agree on that we should pray the Lord , who is able to do exceedingly aboveall that we ask or think. Ephesians 3:20
Dear sister, look up for comfort. Psalm 3:3
Greetings from Holland,
Cameroonman



rcjames -> RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/8/2008 2:37:30 PM)

Well it seems to me that this might be much about inuendo, gossip, jealousy, etc. The Capitalization of certain words and saying that other folks felt "Life" something was amiss is a dead give-a-way that this situation is not being treated in a Godly fashionj.

If you think that something untowards going on; then go to the Pastor and/or the Leadership and tell him/them so.

But for God's sake do not gossip and talk about it to the whole Chruch and see "WHAT" others feel to bolster your own opinion.

The guy might be doing every girl in Church; I do not know, but neither do those who are involved in the whispers and back-biting.

If there is a problem then let the leadership know and let them deal with it. Otherwise shame on those who talk about someone without knowing what they are taking about.

This is the stuff that Church splits are made of and the devil loves and encourages it.

Thaks
RC



deliveredarling -> RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/8/2008 3:18:44 PM)

Be prepared, I'm going to make a very bold statement.

You contributed to this problem and are still contributing to the problem by talknign about it.

You have a feigned concern for this young and and teen aged girl, but what is so apparent is how interested you are in it.

As others have said, taking it to the elders and leaving it with them to handle would have been the appropriate reaction.

As you said in an earlier post, you are gunshy, with very good reason.

Sometimes things don't look right, that doesn't mean that something shady is always going on.

If people want something shady going on, just to give themselves something to do, they WILL make it shady.

Pray for them and leave it to the leadership to deal with.

Too many chiefs and not enough Indians.



Zhi -> RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/8/2008 11:29:25 PM)

I am not really sure what the question is.

The man in question is not, for whatever reason, in ministry anymore.

At this point, I would ask what interest you have in it. Regardless of what the "truth of the matter" is, it would appear to be something that he, his wife, and hopefully the pastor will be dealing with.

I guess I would ask... what is it that you hope to accomplish?



dianetavegia -> RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/9/2008 7:34:14 AM)

You're three years too late. Something should have been done about this when it was first noticed. You might possibly have ignored statutory rape.

Pray for Todd and his wife that their marriage be restored. Pray for the young girl that she will find friends her own age.

Let this go. It's no longer your business other than to pray for them.



Hayseed -> RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/9/2008 4:30:21 PM)

How many red flags do y'all need?

Sounds like that one lady was the only one that has any sense. Sounds like your pastors aren't doing their jobs and they need to be the ones shown out the door.



buckifn -> RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/9/2008 8:59:50 PM)

quote:

Sounds like that one lady was the only one that has any sense.


Exactly.

Do you know by the time most men are caught cheating, abusing, etc. that for that 1 victim who FINALLY comes forward there are usually at least 10 and often 100's of others?

NEVER ignore red flags.



LkM07 -> RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/9/2008 10:59:56 PM)

Thanks for all the replies.

Im not sure why so many are saying things about me not needing to be gossiping about it and talking about it... I dont talk or gossip about it with anyone.. the only person Ive talked about it throughout it is my husband. As far as talking on here.. well its very annonymous and I thought thats what this was for.

And the reason I was sharing this story is because I am very confused and hurt even myself over this. Me and my husband because good friends with this guy. I guess I want to hear that maybe yes he didnt set boundries but there is NOTHING going on with him and Anne. I feel so blind to the situation now I wanted fresh perspectives. IM SO afraid we are going to be blindsided by find out they were having, or are still having a relationship. It would be SO disheartening.



Hayseed -> RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/9/2008 11:26:36 PM)

But NOBODY set boundaries. You made the distinction that he wasn't trained as a minister through a college or seminary. What I can't help but wonder through reading the OP is what were the "trained" pastors and ministers doing all this while?

Obviously, their "training" lacked the basics.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

It wasn't anything to do the lack of training. Heck, many of the best pastors I've known didn't have any "formal training." That has nothing to do with it. Obviously, this guy wasn't the one to be doing that work. But, there's blame to be put on the pastors for not talking to him about it way back when it started. It seems, from what you've said, that it was obvious to many people, but nobody (except for the woman that got chastised for "handling it wrong") did anything about it.

It doesn't matter how far the relationship has gone... it's inappropriate on sooooooooo many levels.



GregandJenny -> RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/10/2008 11:06:55 AM)

quote:

IM SO afraid we are going to be blindsided by find out they were having, or are still having a relationship.


I thought he was gone. It really doesn't matter if they are having a relationship now or not.

to me it's simply time to pray and move on.

G



laura... -> RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/10/2008 11:38:16 AM)

quote:

IM SO afraid we are going to be blindsided by find out they were having, or are still having a relationship.


There's nothing "blindsided" about it. It was in everybody's face for 3 years.

My suggestion would be to call the woman who was blowing the whistle way back when and apologize. I suspect that she didn't approach it right out of frustration that nobody was opening their eyes and heeding her concerns.

I'm with Solarflare in asking, "Where are the pastor and elders?" Have they all been on a 3 year sabbatical? Were they more concerned about having a keeper for the youth than the wellbeing of the youth, this young man's marriage and the purity of the young lady?



deliveredarling -> RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/10/2008 2:10:40 PM)

quote:

Im not sure why so many are saying things about me not needing to be gossiping about it and talking about it... I dont talk or gossip about it with anyone.. the only person Ive talked about it throughout it is my husband. As far as talking on here.. well its very annonymous and I thought thats what this was for.

And the reason I was sharing this story is because I am very confused and hurt even myself over this. Me and my husband because good friends with this guy. I guess I want to hear that maybe yes he didnt set boundries but there is NOTHING going on with him and Anne. I feel so blind to the situation now I wanted fresh perspectives. IM SO afraid we are going to be blindsided by find out they were having, or are still having a relationship. It would be SO disheartening.


I think the problem for some of us comes in, where it seems you have been spying on this young man looking for a "GOTCHA". I mean, really, going to Facebook and checking out his messages is a little extreme for someone so concerned.

It doesn't appear to be concern, it sounds like you have been sitting on the sidelines waiting for something exciting to happen.

As I said before, people can see something and make a mountain out of a mole hill.

I have a problem with your theory in that the guys wife was just as close as he was to the girl's mother. Any kind of hanky panky would have been picked upon by mom.

If she is not blowing a gasket over it, neither should anyone else.

People seem to assume the very worst and that is sad.

Nobody is considering that all the gossip that is flying around just very well might hurt this guy and the girl's family. They are more interested in hearing the rest of the "Scandal".



laura... -> RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/10/2008 2:22:51 PM)

quote:

I think the problem for some of us comes in, where it seems you have been spying on this young man looking for a "GOTCHA". I mean, really, going to Facebook and checking out his messages is a little extreme for someone so concerned.


LkM has stated that she is on the youth ministry team. It is not unusual to assume that she would also be in his Facebook and MySpace friends lists. It would be perfectly normal for her to visit those pages, read the messages, etc. That's what Facebook and MySpace is for.

It's not snooping if what is done is done publicly. There isn't anything much more public than the internet.

quote:

Nobody is considering that all the gossip that is flying around just very well might hurt this guy and the girl's family. They are more interested in hearing the rest of the "Scandal".


What gossip?



deliveredarling -> RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/10/2008 2:40:59 PM)

quote:


What gossip?


From the sound of the op, people all in the church were talking about it after that woman left in a huff.

I just wonder did anyone consider that maybe leadership got wind of it, did some asking and determined it a null and void issue.

Leadership doesn't announce everything they do to the congregants.

Maybe the op is thinking because she didn't see any repercussions that nothing was done. If nothing was wrong to begin with, there would be no repercussions.



LkM07 -> RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/10/2008 2:49:03 PM)

Im getting very aggrivated with being told I am entertained by this.. Are you kidding me?? These people are my good friends. I am hurt for them, their kids, and our youth once all of this gets out, and he steps down.

No he isnt gone yet, hence why I came here for comforting answers, and feedback.

YES elders and leadership dropped the ball on this. I do believe the lady who brought it up a while back could use to recieve some appologies but.. well I wont go on about her, lets just say she doesnt have the best track record with handling things. Not that anyone is perfect.

Part of what might have made it difficult is that we JUST got a new head pastor a year ago now.. so Todd was being our youth pastor at then end of our last pastors service (which was hairy because there was issues with him) and for a year where all we had was a guest pastor that ONLY spoke on sundays... the rest of the staff was so preoccupied with hiring a new had pastor.. Things have just been NUTS at our Church.. we already had a split just 4 years ago.

I feel like its neverending.



LkM07 -> RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/10/2008 2:51:47 PM)

and yes the reason I would be looking at his facebook page occasionally IS because he is my friend on their.. plus you dont even have to look, you get news feeds of activity of all your friends right on yoru own homepage.. Sure you knew that though.



Zhi -> RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/10/2008 3:09:04 PM)

I'm making no judgement regarding your motivations here. I'm just asking what you hope to accomplish.

It kind of looks like this is all falling out regardless of what you do about it, at this point. He's stepping down, getting a divorce, etc. Since he's in a leadership role, what should be done is going to be the domain of those in authority over him, which as far as I can tell doesn't include you. If they're not taking control at this point, then you might need to step in and talk to those authorities (preferably privately to make sure they're aware of what's going on), but otherwise, other than praying for the situation, I'm really not sure what you think you CAN do.



LkM07 -> RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. (9/10/2008 3:16:47 PM)

Im not really looking for anything except.. another eye into the story because I feel so confused. I dont plan on doing anything it looks like whats going to happen is starting to happen. Only advice for action I might need is if I see him actually try to make a relationship with this girl. but I may not need to be the one to do that so..

Im pretty done with this.



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