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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/19/2008 2:00:08 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LkM07
I know.. bleh.. its just so nuts, what if Im wrong.. I mean yes there are all these red flags but what if Im still wrong and I just cause a big ruffle. I just hate being the one to do it, but I seem to be the only one concerned enough to be jacked out of shape about it.
Yuh know, I really start to understand why nothing was done in your church re the uh....what shall we call it? Scandal? Dunno...do you think it was/is one?
YOU know....you absolutley know...and you won't move yourself and keep writing on here and everyone keeps telling you to tell the Pastor and you like uh....dunno.
If this was a legal matter....and technically it is and could get a whole lot worse...you would be an accessory after the fact. Dunno?
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/19/2008 4:35:34 PM
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buckifn
Posts: 1760
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the way I see it if an adult has known what has been going on, and that this girl is driving to meet this guy and STILL does nothing then imo they are an accessory to anything that happens wrong and should be prosecuted as such.
Bailing out on those youth who are entrusted in this guy's care is criminal imo. I don't know of any other way to say it.
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/19/2008 9:02:02 PM
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delete123
Posts: 944
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
It also tells me that people a re going by appearances. Things just aren't always what they appear to be.
This is why the Lord instructs us to: Abstain from the appearance of evil.
With the youth pastor being "fresh" the elders and pastor should have been instructing him on what is consider acceptable behavior.
When boundaries have been given to him, which they have.
He only obeyed them until he felt "safe" and then continued again in his behavior with a minor.
They should (The Elders and Pastor) at that time request that he step down as he was out of bounds in his job, "giving to the appearance of evil to the congregation.
No one seems to have taken control or even put the responsibility where it belongs.
#1 the Lead Pastor (who is in charge of his flock)
#2 the Youth pastor (who was given charge)
#3 to the observers who stood silent and did not report it to the lead pastor or elders (deacons)
just mho
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/20/2008 9:32:50 AM
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redeemedsaint
Posts: 514
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You know, I will agree with some of the posters on here. Why have you not stood up and let the pastor and his staff know what is going on? To allow this thing to continue is an accident waiting to happen. You keep writing about this, but you are doing nothing. Whether you are wrong or not, stand up and be counted. I get tired of individuals who know what's going on and sit on their hands allowing this nonsense to continue and when it finally blows up, they say "Oh, I wish I had done something." I know this by experience believe me.
_____________________________
Woody
Get off the track cause the freight train is coming - Coach Bobby Lee Duke from Facing the Giants
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/20/2008 10:40:18 AM
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solarflare
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There is now an interesting thread running over in General Faith....about handing over someone to Satan....makes interesting reading when compared with this thread.
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/23/2008 12:01:25 PM
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LkM07
Posts: 28
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I am back from the trip and all I can saw is.. Im exhausted. poop hit the fan this weekend, the right thing finally happened but as you all said it was too late because it had gotten to far. It happend at the wrong time, on a youth trip infront of all the kids. I will explain more but I want to say, despite my, and many others MAJOR MAJOR mistake of waiting too long to confront this guy, God stepped in, protected these kids, and it "smoothed" out as best as it could. There is no doubt they are heart, but I think they learned that stuff like this happens, and that Todd made a huge mistake but we can still love him.
I want you all to understand I am in no way making excuses, me, my husband, the other volunteer youth staff, AND even a few of the kids parents, feel very guity as we admitted to each other we were all biting our tongues waiting for Anne to just leave so we coudl have the easy way out of this situatino but it bit us in the butt.
This weekend, Anne shows up to the youth trip and their flirting, tied to the hip sickness started. This kids are just sick of it at this point and emediatly starting complaining to us youth staff, even calling my husband who was not at the trip yet. Todd and Ann were going off to private areas, I had to keep going after them and giving todd the EYES to stop, nothing worked. Kids even said they saw them holding hands when they thought they were alnog. Finally I approached Todd and he said he doesnt understand, she is his best friend and came to support him during his last youth trip, and a hard time in his life. I really laid into him a nd told him IM NOT watching anymore of this he is being a bad example, and is just flat out not right. He semed ot try a bit for a few hour the next day to keep things appropriate with Anne but it didnt last long. Long story short my husband gets there, and really lays into him, he got upset and said he was leaving. We asked him to please not leave, just listen to us and set the boundries, get through this trip so you dont throw these kids in a panic and put us in a tough spot. He went nuts, went and told a few of the kids he was getting divorced, told anne and her mom only half the story and they all left. The kids were so confused, they knew that Todd was being stupid but They still didnt understand why he was leaving. We told them he was going through a rough time in his life and we need to pray for him so that is what we did. in the mean time we got ahold of our pastor and he came out to the trip because we were only 45 min away. He talked with them, we prayed, the kids lifted their heads, I think they understood what happened. We didnt tell them all the details, that we were gettin after Todd for being unappropriate but the kids that did directly ask us if what they were doing was right we said NO.. and we are working on it now. Even admitted we have waited too long
Our pastor was not mad at us but agreed and got after us for taking so long. At the same time he knows now how much Todd was lying to us, how he had set us up and put us in an akward pinch, he also admitted he knows how he needs to set up a thing ot educate us on how to handle these situations and to imphasise how quickly we need to come to him even with the SLIGHTEST question about a person in leadership..
so that is the story, on the side of Todds personal behavior since, he is lying to his wife, lying to us, his stories arent lining up, he denied any of the inappropriate stuff he did with Anne, said he were lying.. the list goes on. Todd is in dire need of mental health help I believe. I can see now that he REALLY is screwed up. He is messing with his family so badly.. I just learned today that he is moving out of his house, and is taking a week trip to go see Anne back at her school 8 hours away. NUTS.
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/23/2008 12:52:21 PM
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still4gvn
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From: just north of Seattle, WA
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I didn't read the whole thread, but if Anne is under 18, you need to call the cops. Protect the kid and also think of the news reporting, 'underage girl molested by paster of ________church.'
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/23/2008 12:56:01 PM
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LkM07
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she is 18
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/23/2008 1:27:34 PM
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laura...
Posts: 2861
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From: NE Ohio
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quote:
so that is the story, on the side of Todds personal behavior since, he is lying to his wife, lying to us, his stories arent lining up, he denied any of the inappropriate stuff he did with Anne, said he were lying.. the list goes on. Todd is in dire need of mental health help I believe. I can see now that he REALLY is screwed up. He is messing with his family so badly.. I just learned today that he is moving out of his house, and is taking a week trip to go see Anne back at her school 8 hours away. NUTS.
That's not mental illness. That's adultery and lying.
I am really glad that once the Pastor was informed the Pastor did his job admirably.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/23/2008 2:00:33 PM
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LkM07
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I understand but.. people do have mental issues.. Im by NO MEANS making excuses for me but his behavior put together.. its NUTS there has to be something wrong with him. He is a pathalogical Lier atleast.
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/23/2008 3:19:46 PM
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laura...
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Yes, people do have mental issues. I work for a county agency dedicated to making mental health services available to individuals in need. What you have described about Todd isn't mental illness. Lust produces behavior that is 'nuts'. You are dealing with a man in the throws of lust. Constant lying goes hand in hand with lust. So does the destruction of one's own family, relationships and ministries.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/23/2008 3:42:08 PM
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solarflare
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So you all did nothing and the inevitable happened.
Sorry to add this, LKM07. It seems that you are in denial. Perhaps you might check that out also. I am not being sarcastic. It is a shame that the youth had to see that and go through that. They should be protected...not exposed to adult's sin. I agree with the things Laura has said.
< Message edited by solarflare -- 9/23/2008 11:28:46 PM >
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/25/2008 10:12:40 PM
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cwb
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From: Eastern NC
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Wow! Thanks for keepin' it short! If I'd read the whole thing, I'd have had to scroll to read it all!!!
You say you don't know what to think? Think on these things: whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise. Then it's probably better to not think on this one, unless the Lord tells you you should involve yourself.
Do you think He will???
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/28/2008 4:54:48 AM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 711
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From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
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quote:
and even found pictures on his facebook of him and her on youth trips, and one with her sitting on his lap ...
Suppose churches took the money wasted on short-term missions trips and used it to help members get their kids out of the humanist re-education camps ...
Hey, "missions" is fun, getting out of the rut, away from familiar faces (and constraints), and the thrill of working together on an important task. It's an emotional pressure-cooker with unusual temptations that can blindside you.
We will not enroll our children in our church's youth program for a number of reasons. Foremost is the appearance that the youth leader endorses public education as a normal and acceptable option for middle-school kids. The amount of time, energy, and money poured into "missions" trips. The pack behavior of those in the program (kids cluster together in the sanctuary and corridors during services). The premature breakup of the family unit. Exposure to cliques and unnecessary sexual temptation.
Scrap the youth program. Evangelize the fathers of the kids we want to reach, so that we can build, rather than undermine, the family. Spend too much time tampering with the families of others, and our own might have problems ...
_____________________________
The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 10/6/2008 11:38:35 AM
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Marksman
Posts: 271
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From: Drouin, Victoria, Australia
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Judging by what has been written it seems that the church has endemic problems. It never augurs well if a church begins as a split. A bit like a divorce. Unless the problems that create the split/divorce are addressed, they are taken into the second marriage and the problems begin all over again.
I would say that they haven't been addressed by the fact that you had problems with the pastor that has left.
The endemic problems have and will flow over into the leadership at every turn. It is obvious that what is happening with the youth leader is part of the overall problem. When there are problems that are not addressed, there is no authority, so it is easy for someone to get away with things that are not acceptable.
It is very clear that the girl didn't need him. He needed the girl because he was trying to escape a marriage relationship that was failing because he would not accept his full responsibility in the relationship. The girl was an escape. The problem did not arise when he became youth leader. It was there already as a character flaw.
When authority is compromised as it has been in this church, you don't always see the obvious because "the show must go on".
I doubt anything will change even with the new pastor as he will be subject to the spirit at work in the church.
The real answer here is not to call the police or go to the civil authorities as that is forbidden in scripture. The real answer is a good dose of humility on the part of everyone and to call the church together to explain what has been happening, and then for the church to pray and ask God's forgivness for abusing the trust he has given for the people of God and to ask that he will bring cleansing and forgivness and root out any problem that is preventing the church from functioning under his annointing and direction. Some people will have to ask forgivness from others and those who have been hurt will need to know healing and wholeness.
If the youth leader is to remain in the church, he will have to be brought under the direction of a senior member of the church for counselling and correction to get his life back on track. This will need to be done in a spirit of reconcilliation and forgivness.
Until this happens and he has been given the all clear, he should not be allowed to have anything to do with the young people. No matter how good he is or anyone for that matter, no one should be allowed a position of trust if they cannot meet the standards set out in scripture.
Anything less than this will ensure that you are condemned to repeating the problem over and over again. It may be not be in the same way but there will be a problem nonetheless.
_____________________________
God Bless America
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 10/6/2008 12:05:22 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
The real answer here is not to call the police or go to the civil authorities as that is forbidden in scripture.
It is? So it's OK to rape, steal or whatever ....as long as Christians are involved you don't go to the authorities. Didn't know that.
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 10/9/2008 2:43:20 PM
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Marksman
Posts: 271
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From: Drouin, Victoria, Australia
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quote:
It is? So it's OK to rape, steal or whatever ....as long as Christians are involved you don't go to the authorities. Didn't know that.
You obviously didn't know either that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, and unbecoming of a christian.
And how dare you take each other to court! When you think that you have been wronged, does it make any sense to go before a court that knows nothing of Gods ways instead of a family of Christians?
As these disagreements and wrongs surface, why would you ever entrust them to the judgment of people you don’t trust in any other way?
1 Corinthians 6 The Message
_____________________________
God Bless America
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 10/9/2008 5:21:13 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marksman
quote:
It is? So it's OK to rape, steal or whatever ....as long as Christians are involved you don't go to the authorities. Didn't know that.
You obviously didn't know either that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, and unbecoming of a christian.
I was not being sarcastic.......I was being serious. And frankly, my wits are quite becoming of my Christianity and read the NT and see how sarcastic some people professing Christ got there. But again, I was not being sarcastic. THAT is YOUR interpretation.
And how dare you take each other to court! An example of religious rhetoric IMO. When you think that you have been wronged, does it make any sense to go before a court that knows nothing of Gods ways instead of a family of Christians?
Read my post that you disagree with. So, if someone raped your daughter and everyone was professing Christianity, you would just have a good talk? God is the one that sets up the authorities, whom we are supposed to pray for by the way, He has not set up "Christian" courts separate from the law of the land for those who break that law. You are misquoting and misinterpreting the scripture.
As these disagreements and wrongs surface, why would you ever entrust them to the judgment of people you don’t trust in any other way?
Frankly, I don't trust 'Christians' who think they have a sub-culture.
1 Corinthians 6 The Message Paul was talking about disputes ie. cases involving property cases......not what I wrote down. Any man in his 30's who seduces a teen-age girl, should pay the consequences...unless maybe you are of the mind that he should pay the dad for her services and marry the girl if she was a virgin like OT law? Oh....wait...that guy already had a wife...I know.....let's stone him! (now that, IS an example of my sarcasim.) You need to study those Scripture you are quoting in its context and not apply in a broad sense to every case. The guy in this thread, was an adulterer, a seducer and a liar. I would not want him near my teenage daughter and if he did what it appears he did, he would be reported to the authorities...God Himself has placed over us. Thank you.
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 10/9/2008 5:38:34 PM
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solarflare
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PS BTW, if this man were reported to the authorities, there would be no
'taking to court'. It is the 'authorities' who address that case... it would
be the STATE vs whoever, not the parents of the girl VS whoever. Again,
Paul is not talking about the kind of actions or behavior this thread is about in I Cor. 6 and the actions of this man go way beyond a 'dispute'.
According to Romans 13: 3-4, criminal cases should be handled by the
state.
You can't pick Scripture to build YOUR case....Scripture, should rather
indicate to YOU the action to be taken.
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 10/10/2008 12:45:21 PM
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Marksman
Posts: 271
Joined: 6/7/2007
From: Drouin, Victoria, Australia
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quote:
Paul was talking about disputes ie. cases involving property cases......not what I wrote down.
If that is the case why did Paul say "But I am saying that you shouldn't act as if everything is just fine when one of your Christian companions is PROMISCUOUS or crooked...Don't we have some responsibility for those within our community of believers?...we need to decide when our brothers and sisters are out of line and if necessary clean house."
I am not sure what a promiscuous building is.
_____________________________
God Bless America
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 10/10/2008 12:50:03 PM
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Marksman
Posts: 271
Joined: 6/7/2007
From: Drouin, Victoria, Australia
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quote:
Frankly, I don't trust 'Christians' who think they have a sub-culture
I am not sure that the scripture give us the luxury to interpret it according to what we think.
Apart from the fact that we are called to establish God's Kingdom on earth which should be an alterantive kingdom, not one that mirrors the earthly one. I would say that was a sub-culture or even better a superior culture as our standards are to be higher than that of the world.
_____________________________
God Bless America
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 10/10/2008 1:05:53 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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You have not responded to what I wrote concerning the scriputre YOU quoted. Neither have you addressed the scripture I quoted. You would actually be breaking the law yourself if you sheltered someone guilty of criminal matters in your desire (mistaken) to settle everything out of court. That, is absolutely not what Paul intended and not what God intends either or again, we would not have civil authorities over us which the BIBLE teaches, are put there by God. Again, someone who rapes or has sex with an underage person, even though they 'consented' is guilty of a crime. They are not sued (which is what Paul was talking about...Christians suing other Christians) they are brought to trial. The state vs whoever. Not whoever vs whoever which is what a civil trial is about.
Any REPENTANT person is more than welcome in the Christian community, and those who have no intentions of repenting and in fact, sow discord and seduce, do not belong in the church. Have you forgotten what Paul said to do with the man who was fornicating and committing adultery with his father's wife? Paul said to put him out of the church, not 'handle' him. You are basing your belief on one small passage of scripture that does not even address the discussion in this thread.
quote:
I am not sure that the scripture give us the luxury to interpret it according to what we think.
People do it all the time. 
I don't believe in "kingdom' theology nor do I see it in the Bible. Only God can establish his kingdom. His kingdom right now is not a physical one. Apparently, you don't believe that, but that seems to be your basis for dealing with crimes committed by Christians even though that idea is contrary to scripture.
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 10/10/2008 2:40:10 PM
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Hayseed
Posts: 571
Joined: 4/15/2006
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I got to agree with Solarflare.
You really are misunderstanding and taking out of context that little statement in the whole Bible.
We have to use scripture to interpret scripture. Is that one little verse really supported by the rest of scripture the way you want to use it here?
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 10/11/2008 1:40:06 PM
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Marksman
Posts: 271
Joined: 6/7/2007
From: Drouin, Victoria, Australia
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quote:
You really are misunderstanding and taking out of context that little statement in the whole Bible. We have to use scripture to interpret scripture.
Quite the contrary. the whole of chapters 5,6 and 7 are about sex and there is no mention about sueing each other. Paul starts 5 with Ï also received a report of scandalous sex within your church family...no mention of sueing each other over buildings.
quote:
People do it all the time.
So what? Doesn't make it right.
quote:
I don't believe in "kingdom' theology nor do I see it in the Bible. Only God can establish his kingdom. His kingdom right now is not a physical one.
I have about 40 books in my library which say the opposite to what you say, written by world renown authors accepted by the mainstream church such as Peter Wagner, Francis Frangipane and John Dawson. You are quite wrong to say his kingdom is not a physical one because everytime a body of believers meet together it is physical. At least it is in my fellowship. Perhaps you don't meet with other believers?
Jesus said when you caste out demons the Kingdom of God is around you. You can't get more physical than that. But then you may have a theoretical experience where you sit around and talk about things but never do anything to go into all the world and make disciples, which by the way is very physical.
Apart from the fact that Jesus said he would build his church so how do you build something that doesn't exist.
_____________________________
God Bless America
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 10/12/2008 6:54:57 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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Marksman........you are off the mark. Whatever helps you sleep at night I guess.......but frankly, your train of illogic would give pause for a nightmare..... 
quote:
I have about 40 books in my library which say the opposite to what you say
Lotta $$$ spent for nothing then. The Bible is THE book. I have several of those.
quote:
you may have a theoretical experience where you sit around and talk about things but never do anything to go into all the world and make disciples, which by the way is very physical.
Or, I may not have that sit around experience. I may be on the front lines and really know what I'm talking about, huh?
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