Salvation in the Old testament (Full Version)

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PROPHETSONG -> Salvation in the Old testament (9/7/2008 6:54:41 PM)

The grace and mercy of God was always available from the time of Adam until now.
In the days preceding the coming of Messiah, Jesus, men were justified by believing God's promises of the coming anointed one that would deliver man from his sin.
It is written "that Abraham believed God and it was accredited to him as righteousness."
Jesus said that Abraham longed to see his day, the day of Messiah, and in fact he did.
According to Christ the coming Messiah was revealed Abraham, and it was through faith in this promise from God that Abraham received righteousness, not the rightness of man, but the rightness of God in the Messiah Jesus.
When God told Abrahan to sacrifice Issaac it was a test of Abraham's faith in Messiah. Abraham knew that the Messiah would be sacrificed for the sin of all men ,then rise from the dead. When God told Abraham to sacrifice Issaac he beleived that Issaac was the Messiah. In Heberews chapter 11 it is mentioned that Abraham belived that God was able to raise Issaac from the dead, or in other words a coming resurrection. Resurrection was and always be a sign of Messiah.
The prophets of old new of his coming for fortold it, and because they believed it what God was going to do they were saved. The writers of Psalms spoke constantly of Christ, they saw ahead to the day of redemption, and were justified by God through their faith.
Jesus himself gave testimony of the scriptures, saying that "that they {the scriptures} testify of me" .-John chapter 7.
The Law and the prophets testified of the finish work of the cross, and the purpose of the scriptures is to prepare men to receive Messiah, and be saved. The savaltion of the Cross actually transends time.
Today we look to what Messiah did and are saved. In the old testament men looked forward to what he was goin to do and were saved.



ta_mosquito -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/7/2008 9:06:28 PM)

Moving from The Bible to Salvation Issues.



Theophile2 -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/7/2008 10:57:26 PM)

Yup -

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He will bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.

Is 7:14, 53:3-4, 12; Dan 9:26

Lk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

Acts 28:23 And they having appointed him a day, many came to him in his lodging; to whom he expounded, testifying the kingdom of God, and persuading them the things concerning Jesus, both out of the Law of Moses and out of the Prophets, from morning until evening.

Jo 1:45; Acts 3:24, 10:43; Ro 4:1-25; Ga 3:6-14; He 11:1-40

Blessings

[sm=icon_smile_fish.gif]



whisperingwaters -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/7/2008 11:10:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PROPHETSONG

The grace and mercy of God was always available from the time of Adam until now.
In the days preceding the coming of Messiah, Jesus, men were justified by believing God's promises of the coming anointed one that would deliver man from his sin.
It is written "that Abraham believed God and it was accredited to him as righteousness."
Jesus said that Abraham longed to see his day, the day of Messiah, and in fact he did.
According to Christ the coming Messiah was revealed Abraham, and it was through faith in this promise from God that Abraham received righteousness, not the rightness of man, but the rightness of God in the Messiah Jesus.
When God told Abrahan to sacrifice Issaac it was a test of Abraham's faith in Messiah. Abraham knew that the Messiah would be sacrificed for the sin of all men ,then rise from the dead. When God told Abraham to sacrifice Issaac he beleived that Issaac was the Messiah. In Heberews chapter 11 it is mentioned that Abraham belived that God was able to raise Issaac from the dead, or in other words a coming resurrection. Resurrection was and always be a sign of Messiah.
The prophets of old new of his coming for fortold it, and because they believed it what God was going to do they were saved. The writers of Psalms spoke constantly of Christ, they saw ahead to the day of redemption, and were justified by God through their faith.
Jesus himself gave testimony of the scriptures, saying that "that they {the scriptures} testify of me" .-John chapter 7.
The Law and the prophets testified of the finish work of the cross, and the purpose of the scriptures is to prepare men to receive Messiah, and be saved. The savaltion of the Cross actually transends time.
Today we look to what Messiah did and are saved. In the old testament men looked forward to what he was goin to do and were saved.




Right on.



drmark -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/9/2008 11:45:29 AM)

That's a lot of speculation regarding what Abraham actually "knew", don't you think, prophetsong? What do you speculate that Enoch knew about Jesus when he walked with God and then was no more for God took him away. Hebrews 11:5 states that Enoch was one who was commended because he pleased God, not because he knew of "the coming anointed one that would deliver man from his sin."

I think it's presumptuous to think that any of these OT patriarchs "knew" much more than the simple Truth that God created them, God loved them, and God was worthy to be trusted and obeyed. Paul makes it clear in Romans 4 that Abraham's faith in God was credited to him as righteousness, not that Abraham believed some systematic theology of Christ's Atonement some 3000 years in the future!



DougHorton -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/9/2008 5:02:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

That's a lot of speculation regarding what Abraham actually "knew", don't you think, prophetsong? What do you speculate that Enoch knew about Jesus when he walked with God and then was no more for God took him away. Hebrews 11:5 states that Enoch was one who was commended because he pleased God, not because he knew of "the coming anointed one that would deliver man from his sin."

I think it's presumptuous to think that any of these OT patriarchs "knew" much more than the simple Truth that God created them, God loved them, and God was worthy to be trusted and obeyed. Paul makes it clear in Romans 4 that Abraham's faith in God was credited to him as righteousness, not that Abraham believed some systematic theology of Christ's Atonement some 3000 years in the future!


On the other hand, it is rather arrogant to think that they only knew what was written down. Abraham had several conversation with the Lord Himself, perhaps more that were not recorded. I doubt if they sat talking about the local sports scores.



PROPHETSONG -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/9/2008 11:31:48 PM)

This quote taken from the Lord himself as recorded by the eye witness john the apostle;

John8:56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

He the Lord states that Abraham saw the days of Messiah and I believe he that Jesus is the ultimate expert in this matter. All I did was agree with him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

That's a lot of speculation regarding what Abraham actually "knew", don't you think, prophetsong? What do you speculate that Enoch knew about Jesus when he walked with God and then was no more for God took him away. Hebrews 11:5 states that Enoch was one who was commended because he pleased God, not because he knew of "the coming anointed one that would deliver man from his sin."

I think it's presumptuous to think that any of these OT patriarchs "knew" much more than the simple Truth that God created them, God loved them, and God was worthy to be trusted and obeyed. Paul makes it clear in Romans 4 that Abraham's faith in God was credited to him as righteousness, not that Abraham believed some systematic theology of Christ's Atonement some 3000 years in the future!



drmark -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/10/2008 9:20:41 AM)

quote:

On the other hand, it is rather arrogant to think that they only knew what was written down.
You think it is "arrogant" to accept God's Word at face value and not add personal conjecture to suit one's assumed theology? That really is presumptuous, DougHorton!

quote:

This quote taken from the Lord himself as recorded by the eye witness john the apostle;

John8:56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

He the Lord states that Abraham saw the days of Messiah and I believe he that Jesus is the ultimate expert in this matter. All I did was agree with him.
A reasonable interpretation is that Abraham experienced general joy in knowing that God's purposes, by which all nations on earth would receive His blessing (Gen 18:18), were promises about to be fulfilled through Jesus. If you think Abraham understood the Incarnation, Atonement, and Resurrection based on this one verse, you have taken much liberty with the passage in my opinion, prophetsong.



DougHorton -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/10/2008 2:55:41 PM)

quote:

You think it is "arrogant" to accept God's Word at face value and not add personal conjecture to suit one's assumed theology? That really is presumptuous, DougHorton!


LOL

OK, I'm presumptuous. I just don't think Abraham, the angels and the Lord sat around staring at the sheep while they waited for the meal to be slaughtered, dressed and cooked. I PRESUME they talked about something, maybe even theology.



drmark -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/10/2008 3:41:59 PM)

Thank you, Doug, apology accepted. I also presume that Abraham had many interesting and fruitful discussions with God about theological issues. I just wonder how we can honestly say that "Abraham knew that the Messiah would be sacrificed for the sin of all men, then rise from the dead" when the very first use of the title "Messiah" does not occur until Daniel's prophesies. That's a span of almost 1500 years if I recall correctly!



DougHorton -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/10/2008 4:06:38 PM)

I don't see how the use of the title Messiah makes any difference. Nobody is saying that Abraham used any specific words. However, Genesis 22 makes it clear that Abraham understood that God was the Provider of the sacrifice, so it is clear he understood the concept.



drmark -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/10/2008 4:18:21 PM)

quote:

However, Genesis 22 makes it clear that Abraham understood that God was the Provider of the sacrifice, so it is clear he understood the concept.
Yes, that sounds very much like the the simple Truth that God created them, God loved them, and God was worthy to be trusted and obeyed. Oh, I already posted that, didn't I.



DougHorton -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/10/2008 5:03:25 PM)

quote:

Oh, I already posted that, didn't I.


Then why are you trying to argue against the point?



drmark -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/10/2008 5:18:06 PM)

What point - that OT saints were saved by grace? No argument there. Or that Abraham knew that the Messiah would be sacrificed for the sin of all men, then rise from the dead? No Scriptural support there!



DougHorton -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/10/2008 5:45:39 PM)

He certainly DID understand that God would provide the sacrifice. Genesis 22 says so.

By sacrifice that means something would die. By resurrection that means something would come back from the dead. That is also supported by scripture.

Hebrews 11:19
He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.

As a type of what? Where did Abraham get these ideas? He had no scripture at all. But somehow he knew God would provide both a perfect sacrifice and resurrection. We know he met several times with God, including the pre-incarnate Christ. It does not take a genius to connect the dots.



Ezra -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/11/2008 1:03:44 AM)

quote:

I think it's presumptuous to think that any of these OT patriarchs "knew" much more than the simple Truth that God created them, God loved them, and God was worthy to be trusted and obeyed. Paul makes it clear in Romans 4 that Abraham's faith in God was credited to him as righteousness, not that Abraham believed some systematic theology of Christ's Atonement some 3000 years in the future!


drmark seems to be missing the mark. As a matter of fact the Bible states clearly that Abraham "looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God" (Heb. 11:10). This is way beyond the "basics".

Now this is a rather remarkable statement when you sit down to think about it. Here we are with a complete Bible and we discover that this city with 12 foundations is none other than the New Jerusalem, whose builder and maker is truly God. This revelation was given to the apostle John about 2,000 years after Abraham. Yet Scripture is explicit that Abraham "looked for" or anticipated inhabiting this city, which means that either God had revealed it to him in a vision or described it to him face to face. Therefore this OT patriarch did indeed know more than the basics listed by drmark.

Furthermore, Abraham spoke prophetically to his son Isaac and said "My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering" (Gen. 22:8). Why should we doubt that God had revealed His plan of salvation to Abraham and therefore he spoke these words with absolute assurance, not merely with reference to the ram that God did provide on that occasion, but the Lamb of God who was slain from before the foundation of the world?

Abraham also anticipated the resurrection of Isaac in the event that he was sacrificied, once again something that could only have been revelaed by God (Heb. 11:19).

In view of these few items, it is not at all presumptuous to maintain that the OT patriarchs anticipated the Messiah, even if it was through prophetic words such as those of Jacob when he said "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet until Shiloh [Messiah] come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be" (Gen. 49:10).



drmark -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/11/2008 10:55:53 AM)

Thank you, Doug and Ezra, for those very intriguing passages. They may well represent a dual meaning of prophetic knowledge for Abraham. I suppose we will find out when we can talk directly to Abe about what he really understood of Heaven back then. It appears I may be putting too much emphasis on the purely historical events of the NT and underestimating the ability of God to illumine His "non-Christian" children regarding the spiritual significance of those events. Thanks for reminding me! [:)]



frankman -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/11/2008 4:16:25 PM)

The Bible teaches we are only saved by faith alone in what Jesus did for us on the cross. People before the cross were saved the same way we are, by faith (Gen.15:6) "Abram believed the LORD, and He credited it to him as righteousness." [sm=icon_smile_question.gif] What did Abram believe in? The promise given to him in Gen.3:15. The promise that God would sent a Savior to die for our sins, yet future. I`m sure they didn`t understand it as clearly as we do now, but they did have a general idea. (for prove of this see passages like Ps.2 and Isa.53) For us it`s faith in what has happened. For O.T. saints it was faith in God`s promises of a Messiah, yet future. For all it`s faith in the blood of Christ that cleanses us from all unrighteousness.



GraceBro -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/11/2008 10:02:58 PM)

True salvation that has been revealed in the New Covenant is the restoration of the Holy Spirit that had been lost in Adam and Eve. They violated the law by eating from the wrong tree, and lost the Spirit of Life, the Holy Spirit of God. Their death was the absence of the life of God that had been breathed into them when they were created. Jesus died for our sins, so that the Holy Spirit could be offered to us as a free gift, and there is no sin left unforgiven that could cause that life to leave again. This was not available until after Jesus was crucified and resurrected from the dead. Therefore, when asking how people were saved before this event, they technically could not have been saved in the same way we are today.

If salvation is the restoration of the Holy Spirit, there was no way for anyone to be saved before the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. I do sincerely believe that when I enter into Heaven, I will see many people who lived and died long before Jesus died and rose again. To explain why I believe this, I would prefer to refine the question. A refined question would be how will the people before the New Covenant be able to enter into the Kingdom of God in Heaven? The reason why I would like to refine the question is because I consider the personal interactive relationship we now experience with our God to be a very important part of our salvation. I do not see any evidence that they could have experienced a life here in this world like we experience, walking and living with the indwelling of our Creator. However, I do believe they could have walked in their daily lives, living in response to the truth of God that was revealed to them. Most people think of salvation as the means by which a person gets out of Hell and into Heaven. I do believe this is true, but I would also include that it is the means by which our God gets out of Heaven and into us. more

Grace and Peace



Ezra -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/11/2008 11:23:12 PM)

quote:

If salvation is the restoration of the Holy Spirit, there was no way for anyone to be saved before the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.


While "salvation" includes the reception of the gift of the Holy Spirit, it also includes justifcation and sanctification. Hebrews 11 is very clear that all the OT saints were justified by faith, and that the Holy Spirit was given to them in that He "came upon them". This is essentially "salvation". Moses desired that all of God's people would prophesy through the Holy Spirit, therefore the Holy Spirit was given to individuals even at that time. All the prophets (and both Abraham and David are prophets) received the Holy Spirit and they spoke or wrote as they were "moved" or "borne" by the Spirit. Without the Spirit, they could not have done anything.

At the same time, Ephesians 4 and Hebrews 11 & 12 teach us that these OT saints could not be "perfected" until the resurrection and ascension of Christ, at which time they were taken from Hades to Paradise and indeed perfected. Thus the souls and spirits of the OT saints dwelt in "Abraham's bosom" until the resurrection of Christ. However, since Pentecost, believers go directly to Heaven because they are in Christ, and on the basis of His finished work of redemption.



drmark -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/12/2008 9:21:36 AM)

quote:

Thus the souls and spirits of the OT saints dwelt in "Abraham's bosom" until the resurrection of Christ.
Is there Scripture that describes the transport of souls from Abraham's bosom to Heaven on the first Easter morning?



DougHorton -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/12/2008 5:29:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Thus the souls and spirits of the OT saints dwelt in "Abraham's bosom" until the resurrection of Christ.
Is there Scripture that describes the transport of souls from Abraham's bosom to Heaven on the first Easter morning?


It seems like an awful lot of speculation going on is this thread lately. I'm with you, drmark, I want to scripture for these claims.

Where does scripture say salvation is the reception of the Holy Spirit? Or that anybody is perfected before the Resurrection? That Adam and Eve lost the Holy Spirit? That their death was only the absence of God? That forgiveness "was not available until after Jesus was crucified and resurrected from the dead"?

Whew! I must have missed all of those passages in scripture! Somebody enlighten me, please.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/12/2008 10:01:44 PM)

Well, the post originally written here was just plain ugly. I am here to apologize for it. And while I am apologizing, I also want to apologize to Mark for what I said on that other thread. You know which one. Sometimes, I just say way more than I ought to, and that was way over what ever should have been written.

I apologize, then, to the person who said all those things Doug quoted, and I sincerely apologize to Mark, whom I have always considered a friend. I hope both of you and Doug will forgive me, because I am truly sorry.



drmark -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/13/2008 9:45:02 AM)

Thanks, Abiyah, just don't beat yourself up over inconsequential matters. [:)]



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Salvation in the Old testament (9/13/2008 10:26:22 AM)

Thanks, Mark. You're a sweetheart.



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