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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 11:01:51 PM
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rcamejo01
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quote:
It depends on what you wish to deem to be the argument... The idea that being circumcised and obeying the law of Moses is the way to heaven? Of course that's not the answer... Did Peter respond that ignoring what God commands was the answer? No...
Look dude I have to sign off for now 0430 comes way too early. But one last thing, how do we determine which of the "Law" we're supposed to continue to keep today? See I used to believe in Limited Grace too. And undoing all that wasn't easy. Thats ok, you can feast off of that last comment. I expect it. Till tomorrow Good Night, God Bless America, and Hurry Up Mr. OBAMA!!!
Obama/ Biden 08!
Veterans for Obama!
_____________________________
In your prayers, please remember my sister Liz, if you havent heard: http://caringbridge.org/visit/lizettecano
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/3/2008 11:14:46 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcamejo01
Look dude I have to sign off for now 0430 comes way too early. But one last thing, how do we determine which of the "Law" we're supposed to continue to keep today?
Well... We are commanded by Christ to do what? Love God with all our heart and mind... Right? How does one do that? Isn't there instructions so to speak in God's word? Make it up as we go? I don't think we need burnt offerings since it's quite obvious Christ took care of that... Yet I would venture to guess that in order to love God with all our heart and mind we couldn't have other gods before him, right? And regarding Christ's other command... Love you neighbor... Well.. Surely not stealing from him, taking his life(murder) and not bearing false witness against him is demonstrating love towards him...
quote:
See I used to believe in Limited Grace too. And undoing all that wasn't easy. Thats ok, you can feast off of that last comment. I expect it.
Not much to even nibble on...
quote:
Till tomorrow Good Night, God Bless America, and Hurry Up Mr. OBAMA!!!
Obama/ Biden 08!
Veterans for Obama!
Heh... Vets for Obama... Now that is funny...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/4/2008 2:10:16 AM
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gdrumm
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On the abortion issue, there are 4 distinct questions that can be asked to determine if it is, indeed, ethical and moral. Is the life inside the womb a person? Well, we know that each species, according to the bible, reproduces itself, so it's human offspring, but let's dig a little deeper. Let's define the moment at which life begins as when the life in the womb is a "person".
If we know for certain that the life in the womb is not a person, then abortion is not wrong. But we know this is not true.
If we don't know for certain that the life in the womb is a not a person, then abortion is criminal negligence. This is the typical "pro-choice", "This is what the media tells me", "I'm not sure" position.
If we don't know for certain that the life in the womb is a person, then abortion is manslaughter. This is the typical politicians "above my pay grade" position.
If we know for certain that the life in the womb is a person, then abortion is murder. This is what abortion doctors actually know.
To argue the "when the soul enters the body" is argument is really a coawrds way of saying "I support elective abortion on demand for any reason."
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The views and opinions of this post do not necessarily reflect those of the reader.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/18/2008 12:17:31 PM
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rcamejo01
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Is Obama's faith truly Christian? Well let me see here, I guess If I were electing a pastor or a sunday school teacher that would be relevant. A good question should be is McCain's faith truly Christian?
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In your prayers, please remember my sister Liz, if you havent heard: http://caringbridge.org/visit/lizettecano
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/18/2008 1:23:11 PM
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Thessa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcamejo01
A good question should be is McCain's faith truly Christian?
Theres already a thread on that.
And - the answer is yes, btw.
_____________________________
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/18/2008 3:02:36 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcamejo01
Is Obama's faith truly Christian? Well let me see here, I guess If I were electing a pastor or a sunday school teacher that would be relevant.
Since he is courting Christian voters it's very relevant...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/18/2008 4:45:08 PM
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rcamejo01
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quote:
Since he is courting Christian voters it's very relevant
Come on "House" your kidding right? I mean he's only courting the "evangelical" vote because he knows The Disaster in D.C. couldn't win with out it.
_____________________________
In your prayers, please remember my sister Liz, if you havent heard: http://caringbridge.org/visit/lizettecano
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/18/2008 5:13:35 PM
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adelphi_sky
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I've picked all the reasons why people think Obama is not a "True" Christian. It is very interesting that throughtout all of the arguments, very few scripture was given that spoke to salvation alone which is the argument here. I don't believe there are any unsaved Christians out there. I know there are some denominations that believe one can loose their salvation. There are some that believe unless we repent daily, we loose it. Sorta like you're saved as you sleep, but when you wake up a sin, you're not saved until you repent at the end of the day. Assuming once saved, always saved, if one is a CHristian, no demon, no power, no principality in hell can rest you away from God's STRONG hand.
Secondly, only those who reject Christ as their Lord and savior repeatedly until death cannot be saved. And there are some who even beleive they have a second chance after death. But some of the arguments really water down the power of the redemptive blood of Christ. As if to say, God is powerless to save those who society may deem unredemptive. Last time I checked, God can save the drug addict, murderer, adulterer, theif, alcohlic, and liar. Why can't he save a politician who grep up in a muslim environment? Even after there is proof of people in those faiths coverting to CHristianity. Isn't that what CONVERSION means? Changing from one to another? Why is Obama exempt from this time tested possibility? If one's history keeps them from being saved or converted, then we better look at ourselves. Because whther we know it or not, growing up in a Christian home does not a Christian make. There's an old saying, "Just because your name is on the pew, that doesn't mean you're saved."
1. "IMHO, any man/woman who believes in abortion is not a 'true' Christian."
One of the main themes in judging whether someone is a Christian. Please read Romans 5.
Acts 2:21 "AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED!" This is without question or arugument. There is no "but", "except", or "unless." The opperative word here is "SHALL BE". not "will be", but "SHALL BE." If one can loose his/her salvation, then that's another debate entirely.
2. "Would a true Christian carry a Hindu god charm in their pocket?"
Interesting question. I'm not sure I can find a store that sells one, but I imagine if I put a powerless object in my pocket, it won't change my faith. Would hanging on to a powerless object such as a prayer cloth be more acceptable?
3. "when he was talking on national tv, he said he that he believed and that Jesus Christ was his savior. and when he said it, he looked down and to the right"
LOL. Not sure what this means. But there are some people who speak in tongues, cry, faint, close their eyes, laugh, smile, etc. when speaking about the Lord. Not sure I've seen a scripture on salvation relating to body language.
4. "He will tell you whatever he thinks you want to hear."
What this person is saying is that they have insight into Obama's purpose in life! From this forum, it seems like he is saying more of what people don't want to hear. Hmmmmmm. Now what? Having a popular message is not a barometer of someone's faith or total lack thereof. Although, some preachers have been accused of the same thing. "Prosperity Gospel."
5. "So, if Obama is a Christian, he needs to repent for his pro-abortion stance among other things in his voting record...then I might consider that he may well be.
The bottom line is only he and God know for sure, but his fruit is somewhat tainted."
Salvation and politics. Interesting how some politicians are Christian without doubt and others aren't based on voting records. Gee. Didn't see that in the Bible regarding salvation. THe bottom line IS that only God knows. You had me there, but then you said his fruit is tainted. According to what? His voting record again? Lst time I check, we ALL, and ALL means ALL, have good fruit and bad fruit that we produce. We do not loose salvation for producing bad fruit. We all mess up. Unless there is no more grace left for us, which I doubt since there is still grace left for the unbeliever as well.
6. "If Barry is really a Christian why didn't he seek out his many half-brothers and sisters and help them out of their poverty?"
Interesting point. Although, there is always some family member or friend in a state of need at one point or another. My salvation does not hinge on whether I'm there to pick up all of their pieces for them. I'm called to pray for them. I do lend a hand if I can. Sometimes we ourselves are in a position of need ourselves. Do you have evidence that Obama has not prayed for these people?
7. "Why did Vanity Fair find him in a hut while the Annointed One was living in a mansion a mobster helped him purchase?"
Believe it or not, some of us don't have access to Christian only real estate agents or benefactors. It may be a mistake of mine, but I don't always check for someone's salvation before I do business with them. The main point is, was the deal itself illegal? And if so, I'm sure charges would've been levied. OR at least Obama would have been indicted. Nevertheless, even buying a house from a convicted felon does not cancel out the salvation one has already been given. Lest God be an indian giver.
8. "Obama, who supports mass murder of children, is definatly not producing Godly fruit. As such, we can clearly tell that he is NOT walking with God."
Hmmmmm. So, if Obama votes for freedom of choice, which all Christians have a right to then that somehow is an indication that oen is not a Christian? God gaves us each a will. The pro-choice stance says that we have a right to excercise that will and government should not intervene. What baffles me is that people will call into question the salvation of someone advocating freedom, than those who are actually doing the killing. How about we start with those who are actually making the choices that we are so adamantly against? But that's a whole other debate. Still, advocating freedom of a person to make the moral decision on their own will, is not indicative of a lack of salvation. Remember David? he actually murdered an innocent man and slept with his wife. What was so different about David? Could it have been grace?
9. "Anyone who can sleep at night knowing thousands of babies are slaughtered by their ruling, and does not view homosexuality as immorality, is clearly not following a Godly law."
I got some sleep last night. Did you? OR have you been awake for the past 30 years. If so, you're up for the Guinness Book of World Records. :-) I jest. But seriously. There are a lot of things that are bad in this world. A lot of it cannot be stopped by law or praying for it to stop. There is evil in the world. But God came so that we may have peace in this world of evil. Should evil trouble us? Yes! Should we loose sleep over it? No! Did not Christ rest in the boat as the storm was raging all around? We are supposed to have faith that in light of all that is evil in the world, God is in control. IN America, we have a chance to even right some of those wrongs through our political system. And by all means vote yoru conscience. But to say that someone is not following Godly law because they aren't raising holy hell over an issue that you passionately care about is a stretch. Minorities could then say a person is not follwoing Godly law when they sleep well at night and seem not to care about injustice towards minorities or starving children in Africa.
10. "What was taught at Obama's church, endorsement of sodomy, cooperation with baby killers, teaching children profanity from the pulpit, dividing American by lying about AIDS, is not Christianity."
Neither is slander or falsely accusing a brother in Christ, or a group of believers for that matter. I'd check with each individual in that church before you falsely accuse someone. There's actually a law against that. Oh, by the way. I still believe you're a Christian. :-)
11. "You can't follow Christ and promote what He is against. That's dangling on both sides of the fence. You're either on one side or you're not."
This has some validity to it. But we all at some point in our lives support thigns we later learn was not in God's will. We dont' loose our salvation over it. Nor are we incapale of being saved. God accepts all. Correct? Even the theif on the cross. Even a convict on death row who gives his life to CHrist is saved! Oh that can't be can it?!?! There's power in the blood right? OR only enough power to cleanse those who are pro-life and have lived in Christian households and was always a Christian who never sinned or had a bad thought right?
12. "Obama's attatchments to Faith are really sketchy in his early years, and as an adult are through the "Liberation Theology" venue."
Last time I checked, one's theology does not render them un unqualified to be saved or to loose one's salvation. Look how many denominations we have in this country. You mean to tell me there's only one proven true theology? I agree that there are essential doctrines of faith such as the trinity, redemption, etc. But other than that, churches vary on a number of Christian practices and beliefs. We are Holliness, Baptist, Assembly of God, Church of God IN Chrst, Methodist, Catholic, etc. But we have different views on different periphery issues. Yes, I know there are cults and churches that go off on the deep in as far as snake worship, etc. That's for another forum.
13. "Can you reconcile Mrt Obama's stance on abortion and homosexuality with being a Christian?"
Sure can, just as we reconciled those who owned slaves, supported segregation, blcoked groups from owning homes in certain areas, and looks piously down on those who think different than they do.
14. "The fact that the Muslims are not denouncing his embracing Christianity and, instead, are supporting him, is troubling in terms of our completely trusting that his faith is real."
This is interesting. So, if a muslim or anyone else of another faith respects your pastor for his passion for Christ and laudes his accumen regarding the scriptures, then you must be troubled that your pastor's faith must not be real too then right? Can't mature human beings respect and support one another in areas other than religion if they disagree? Are you going to not feed a hungry family of Budhists because there are not CHristians? We sponser children in Africa and they are no more CHristian than a muslim. Shall we stop supporting them too? Do we only surrpund ourselves with those we agree with on everything?
15. "Mccain doesn't trumpet faith the way Obama tries to."
Wow. You know good and well that if Obama was mum on his faith, you'd question that too. You'd question his faith because he doesn't share it enough. Or you'd say he's a closet muslim. So which is it? You can't have it both ways. As Christians, we should expect our leaders make the claim if they are trying to get people to know who they are, not hide it. That statement tells me nothing will convince you even if he sat right down in front of you and told you.
16. "You WILL know them by their fruits......."
Yes we will. So, I wonder what kind of fruit someone bears when they come to the aid of people less fortunate than they are and gets involved in organizing Christian churches in order to better the lives of those in the community and congregation. Hmmmmmm. That fruit doesn't count I'm sure. Or, what about taking care of his family? Bad fruit right?
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/18/2008 6:06:58 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5925
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcamejo01
quote:
Since he is courting Christian voters it's very relevant
Come on "House" your kidding right? I mean he's only courting the "evangelical" vote because he knows The Disaster in D.C. couldn't win with out it.
He courting them hoping they are naive enough to believe his phony claim of Christ...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/18/2008 6:43:02 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: adelphi_sky
There's an old saying, "Just because your name is on the pew, that doesn't mean you're saved."
No more than claiming Christ...
quote:
1. "IMHO, any man/woman who believes in abortion is not a 'true' Christian."
One of the main themes in judging whether someone is a Christian. Please read Romans 5.
Acts 2:21 "AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED!" This is without question or arugument. There is no "but", "except", or "unless." The opperative word here is "SHALL BE". not "will be", but "SHALL BE." If one can loose his/her salvation, then that's another debate entirely.
Some will say Lord, Lord... And Christ will say... "I never knew you..."
quote:
2. "Would a true Christian carry a Hindu god charm in their pocket?"
Interesting question. I'm not sure I can find a store that sells one, but I imagine if I put a powerless object in my pocket, it won't change my faith. Would hanging on to a powerless object such as a prayer cloth be more acceptable?
The Golden Calf was a powerless object, nonetheless God took issue with it...
quote:
8. "Obama, who supports mass murder of children, is definatly not producing Godly fruit. As such, we can clearly tell that he is NOT walking with God."
Hmmmmm. So, if Obama votes for freedom of choice, which all Christians have a right to then that somehow is an indication that oen is not a Christian? God gaves us each a will. The pro-choice stance says that we have a right to excercise that will and government should not intervene. What baffles me is that people will call into question the salvation of someone advocating freedom, than those who are actually doing the killing. How about we start with those who are actually making the choices that we are so adamantly against? But that's a whole other debate. Still, advocating freedom of a person to make the moral decision on their own will, is not indicative of a lack of salvation. Remember David? he actually murdered an innocent man and slept with his wife. What was so different about David? Could it have been grace?
David's action were an event not a championed cause... His actions took the life of one man, not 3500 daily... As well David repented...
Obama is in place of authority ordained by God, the civil government(See Romans 13) so while you attempt to make it a cause for freedom it's not so. Since the freedom of the child isn't considered... Obama and others are sanctioning murder from a seat of power that God ordained should be His minister of wrath for those who do evil, not allowing it and or condoning it.. Bible calls such an action and abomination...
quote:
10. "What was taught at Obama's church, endorsement of sodomy, cooperation with baby killers, teaching children profanity from the pulpit, dividing American by lying about AIDS, is not Christianity."
Neither is slander or falsely accusing a brother in Christ, or a group of believers for that matter. I'd check with each individual in that church before you falsely accuse someone. There's actually a law against that. Oh, by the way. I still believe you're a Christian. :-)
What is false? The church in question recognizes same sex unions. Taught hate from the pulpit and a home brewed brand of the gospel that doesn't add up... Attacking the messenger doesn't remove the fact Obama sat in an apostate church... You didn't prove slander so your charge is baseless... Oh by that way, that's against God's law...
quote:
11. "You can't follow Christ and promote what He is against. That's dangling on both sides of the fence. You're either on one side or you're not."
This has some validity to it. But we all at some point in our lives support thigns we later learn was not in God's will. We dont' loose our salvation over it. Nor are we incapale of being saved. God accepts all. Correct? Even the theif on the cross. Even a convict on death row who gives his life to CHrist is saved! Oh that can't be can it?!?! There's power in the blood right? OR only enough power to cleanse those who are pro-life and have lived in Christian households and was always a Christian who never sinned or had a bad thought right?
Yes God accepts all... Though there is change once one is saved, one is made a new creature in Christ... The old passes away... Paul didn't continue hunting down Christians after his conversion... Not that one is perfect, yet there is a change...
The bible is not cloudy on the issues in question here... No splitting of hairs... There is no real argument in the bible regarding certain subjects because it goes without saying that murder and sexual perversion is wrong...
quote:
12. "Obama's attatchments to Faith are really sketchy in his early years, and as an adult are through the "Liberation Theology" venue."
Last time I checked, one's theology does not render them un unqualified to be saved or to loose one's salvation. Look how many denominations we have in this country. You mean to tell me there's only one proven true theology? I agree that there are essential doctrines of faith such as the trinity, redemption, etc. But other than that, churches vary on a number of Christian practices and beliefs. We are Holliness, Baptist, Assembly of God, Church of God IN Chrst, Methodist, Catholic, etc. But we have different views on different periphery issues. Yes, I know there are cults and churches that go off on the deep in as far as snake worship, etc. That's for another forum.
It's not for another forum since it's very relevant to the church Obama sat in for 20 years... Of course I see why you wish to no address this...
quote:
13. "Can you reconcile Mrt Obama's stance on abortion and homosexuality with being a Christian?"
Sure can, just as we reconciled those who owned slaves, supported segregation, blcoked groups from owning homes in certain areas, and looks piously down on those who think different than they do.
Using your formula active pedophiles can be Christians... In fact anyone who simply doesn't denounce God is saved... The bible is clear those who murder and homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom... How that doesn't include those who support the agendas is beyond reason...
quote:
16. "You WILL know them by their fruits......."
Yes we will. So, I wonder what kind of fruit someone bears when they come to the aid of people less fortunate than they are and gets involved in organizing Christian churches in order to better the lives of those in the community and congregation. Hmmmmmm. That fruit doesn't count I'm sure. Or, what about taking care of his family? Bad fruit right?
Since if one doesn't take care of their family they are worse than an infidel one can't take too much credit for doing so... As for organizing Christian churches... If the church Obama was in for 20 years is the example I wouldn't be tooting that horn to loudly...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/20/2008 9:13:46 PM
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Pavteam
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From: South Carolina
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Here is something to think about for you people planning on voting for Obama. Remember when he said there are 57 States? I thought at the time that If McCain had said that, the press would be all over McCain for being Senile and thinking we had 57 states instead of 50. Did you know that there are 57 MUSLIM states? Check it out!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organizati ... Conference
http://www.stoptheaclu.com/archives/2008/05/12/obamas-freudian-slip-there-are-57-islamic-states/
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080512115317AAWyaio
Then on George Stephanpopulous's show on Sept 7, He said "my Muslim Faith" and George said - with eyes bugging out - you mean your Christian Faith. http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/o ... 08.article
Now... Were both of these statements fruedian slips? I don't believe for one minute that he is a Christian. I think that he has been playing a game for the past 20+ years.
Think about it.
As a Christian I can't fathom how someone can sit in a church for 20 years and say that they never heard their preacher say those things. You know a lot of people who want to get into politics join a church - usually one of the more prestigeous churches in their community. A lot of times it's not because they have a desire to worship there, it is out of a desire of where the connections at that church can get them.
My aunt fell in love with a guy (second marriage) who was Jewish - she wanted to marry him so she converted. Now this went against everything she was raised to believe. Funny thing was she would still send out Christmas cards - sometimes even with Baby Jesus on them. Thirty years later - he died - She hasn't been to synagauge since and when she plays the piano now - she plays the old hymns that she grew up with. She just was playing a game all those years to get what she wanted. Do I think Obama is doing the same thing - ABSOLUTELY!
It's not that I was a big fan of John McCain in the beginnning - even though I am a military wife AND both our boys are in the military as well. I figured I would have to vote for McCain - holding my nose. But I listened closely to his answers when Rick Warren had his venue for both of them and I changed my mind. Then when he picked Sarah Palin - who I had heard about before - I knew that he was really listening to the people.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/21/2008 4:05:20 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Pavteam
As a Christian I can't fathom how someone can sit in a church for 20 years and say that they never heard their preacher say those things.
Well uuuuhhhhhh maybe, just maybe Obama was lying.
Either that or he is just plain stupid.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/21/2008 5:21:55 PM
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ken1906_4
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Thessa
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcamejo01
A good question should be is McCain's faith truly Christian?
Theres already a thread on that.
And - the answer is yes, btw.
Are you sure?
Before I go looking through that thread is there anything in it that would prove to us beyond the shadow of doubt that Senator John McCain is truly a Christian besides that he could be against abortion, possibly against gay marriage and the fact he has an “R” next to his name?
Also, why is his brand of Christian faith hold more weight than Senator Obama’s?
This whole thing about if one candidate is more Christian than the other us totally ridiculous. Like I said in another thread none of us have a heaven or hell to put Senator Obama or Senator McCain in. Now do we? If these men have professed the Lord Jesus as savior of their lives and that they believe that He died for our sins then what’s the problem? Many will say that their(Sen. Obama and Sen. McCain) actions don’t reflect authentic Christianity. Do my everyday actions, or your everyday actions or anyone else’s everyday actions reflect Christianity all the time? Of course not, but does that make me, you or anyone else less Christian? God through the Holy Spirit is constantly working on us. In this Christian walk we should be considered as an ongoing construction site. Who are we to say that God is not working on Senator Obama too?
_____________________________
"Choosing between Republicans and Democrats is like choosing between the Pharisees and Sadducees. Both are enemies of Christ."
True colors are being revealed
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/21/2008 6:12:25 PM
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rcamejo01
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quote:
Are you sure?
Before I go looking through that thread is there anything in it that would prove to us beyond the shadow of doubt that Senator John McCain is truly a Christian besides that he could be against abortion, possibly against gay marriage and the fact he has an “R” next to his name?
Also, why is his brand of Christian faith hold more weight than Senator Obama’s?
This whole thing about if one candidate is more Christian than the other us totally ridiculous. Like I said in another thread none of us have a heaven or hell to put Senator Obama or Senator McCain in. Now do we? If these men have professed the Lord Jesus as savior of their lives and that they believe that He died for our sins then what’s the problem? Many will say that their(Sen. Obama and Sen. McCain) actions don’t reflect authentic Christianity. Do my everyday actions, or your everyday actions or anyone else’s everyday actions reflect Christianity all the time? Of course not, but does that make me, you or anyone else less Christian? God through the Holy Spirit is constantly working on us. In this Christian walk we should be considered as an ongoing construction site. Who are we to say that God is not working on Senator Obama too?
I agree with your viewpoint, however I hope your prepared to get blasted just for having such a view...
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In your prayers, please remember my sister Liz, if you havent heard: http://caringbridge.org/visit/lizettecano
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/21/2008 6:25:33 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5925
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ken1906_4
This whole thing about if one candidate is more Christian than the other us totally ridiculous. Like I said in another thread none of us have a heaven or hell to put Senator Obama or Senator McCain in. Now do we? If these men have professed the Lord Jesus as savior of their lives and that they believe that He died for our sins then what’s the problem? Many will say that their(Sen. Obama and Sen. McCain) actions don’t reflect authentic Christianity. Do my everyday actions, or your everyday actions or anyone else’s everyday actions reflect Christianity all the time? Of course not, but does that make me, you or anyone else less Christian? God through the Holy Spirit is constantly working on us. In this Christian walk we should be considered as an ongoing construction site. Who are we to say that God is not working on Senator Obama too?
So there is no standard? Do as one pleases and simply mouth the profession to fend off any idea that believing in ungodly agenda is going to consequences and or show that one is simply saying one and doing another? Sorry, but supporting evil agendas in order to gain a seat of power, a seat of power God ordained to deal with evil not sanction it isn't simply having one's everyday actions not measure up... If in the last 20 years of attending church Mr Obama hasn't ran across the truth regarding abortion and homosexuality(btw, he doesn't believe it's a sin...) he's either not very smart or is simply using the name of God in order to garner a few vote.. Simple reading comprehension says he is not right in his beliefs...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/21/2008 6:34:21 PM
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csl7037
Posts: 2062
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: ken1906_4
This whole thing about if one candidate is more Christian than the other us totally ridiculous. Like I said in another thread none of us have a heaven or hell to put Senator Obama or Senator McCain in. Now do we? If these men have professed the Lord Jesus as savior of their lives and that they believe that He died for our sins then what’s the problem? Many will say that their(Sen. Obama and Sen. McCain) actions don’t reflect authentic Christianity. Do my everyday actions, or your everyday actions or anyone else’s everyday actions reflect Christianity all the time? Of course not, but does that make me, you or anyone else less Christian? God through the Holy Spirit is constantly working on us. In this Christian walk we should be considered as an ongoing construction site. Who are we to say that God is not working on Senator Obama too?
So there is no standard? Do as one pleases and simply mouth the profession to fend off any idea that believing in ungodly agenda is going to consequences and or show that one is simply saying one and doing another? Sorry, but supporting evil agendas in order to gain a seat of power, a seat of power God ordained to deal with evil not sanction it isn't simply having one's everyday actions not measure up... If in the last 20 years of attending church Mr Obama hasn't ran across the truth regarding abortion and homosexuality(btw, he doesn't believe it's a sin...) he's either not very smart or is simply using the name of God in order to garner a few vote.. Simple reading comprehension says he is not right in his beliefs...
While I don't necessarily disagree with you, Ken's point, I believe, is that is ridiculous to try to make judgement about a person's salvation - no matter who they are. Even if the answer seems obvious, it's not our call to make! And, in this situation, does it really matter? I'll admit, I was thrilled to have an "evangelical believer who reads his Bible" elected when GWB came along. Boy was I disappointed! Yay for him he reads his Bible but he also spent tax dollars like a drunken sailor. Definitely a mixed bag.
My point is that, beyond their stance on the issues, it's really not that relevant what they "profess" - even if you think those qualities are important in a leader (which they are), you're foolish to take anyone at their word or even to think by other evidence (church membership or anything else) you can really know what's in their hearts. Again, that's not our job! Our job is to prayerfully compare the two options and trust that the Lord has this in his control. Nitpicking someone's spiritual "fruit" is a petty and pointless exercise.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/21/2008 6:56:23 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5925
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
While I don't necessarily disagree with you, Ken's point, I believe, is that is ridiculous to try to make judgement about a person's salvation - no matter who they are.
I understand Ken's point, I responded to it and it's faulty... The bible doesn't say we are in the dark on the matter...
quote:
Even if the answer seems obvious, it's not our call to make! And, in this situation, does it really matter? I'll admit, I was thrilled to have an "evangelical believer who reads his Bible" elected when GWB came along. Boy was I disappointed! Yay for him he reads his Bible but he also spent tax dollars like a drunken sailor. Definitely a mixed bag.
And you forgot that in all his reading of the bible he came to the conclusion that Muslim and Christians worship the same God...
quote:
My point is that, beyond their stance on the issues, it's really not that relevant what they "profess" - even if you think those qualities are important in a leader (which they are), you're foolish to take anyone at their word or even to think by other evidence (church membership or anything else) you can really know what's in their hearts. Again, that's not our job!
We are told to hold all things to the word of God...
quote:
Our job is to prayerfully compare the two options and trust that the Lord has this in his control.
Where is it stated our job is to compare the "two" options?
quote:
Nitpicking someone's spiritual "fruit" is a petty and pointless exercise.
One doesn't have to nitpick the (lack of) fruit of abortion and the homosexual agenda... It speaks for itself...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/21/2008 7:04:36 PM
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csl7037
Posts: 2062
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline
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Oh, I'd be the last one to defend Obama - his faith, his policies, or anything else!! I just see plenty to be able to judge his fitness for office without needing to get into divining his faith. I guess maybe that's where we're all agreeing - it's about the fruit. If we stick to the fruit, we don't have to get into God's territory if judging the condition of a man's heart. I don't care what's in his heart, I can't get past what's in his issue papers to care about anything else.
But, by the same token, I don't have to agree theologically on every point with McCain to feel secure in his judgement and fitness for office. It's not my call to decifer what's in his heart either. I look at his stand on issues but can't infer too much from that. It's fruitless to try.
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